I just looked at it logically. Look at a map of Tamriel. Now imagine if the Stormcloaks secede from the empire and Skyrim becomes it's own entity. It severely weakens any resistance to Thalmor movements, and puts Skyrim, weakened from a civil war, all alone by itself and doesn't get rid of the Thalmor at all. The Legion is not working for or allied with the Thalmor. They fought the Thalmor to a standstill, and had to accept the treaty which included the banning of Talos worship. If they didn't accept the treaty the Thalmor would probably have ended up killing off half of Tamriel. A lot of Stormcloaks as well as others are alive simply because the Legion did accept the treaty. They never enforced the ban on Talos. It wasn't until Ulfric Stormcloak started this rebellion openly and loudly that the Thalmor sent in their Justicars to "police" Skyrim. Just talking to some of the Imperials you'll realize that they don't like the Thalmor one bit. If you really want to get rid of the Thalmor, the Imperial Legion needs to be united, and strong enough again to actually give them a challenge. Fragmented states, who are warring each other, like what the Stormcloaks are causing is exactly what the Thalmor want. They're not strong enough to take over the empire alone, so they're hoping this civil war weakens the empire enough that they can. The Legion has already lost Hammerfell, because they didn't accept the treaty and kept fighting the Thalmor. To save the lives of most people in the Empire, the Imperials had to svck it up and sign the treaty banning Talos, and dropping Hammerfell. If the Legion gets stronger, it will throw off the Thalmor and return things back to normal. Talos worship has always been accepted by the empire, it's the Thalmor that are causing the problems. It was a good tactical decision to accept the treaty, so that the Empire can regain strength, but with the Stormcloaks around, it's all working in favor of the Thalmor.

Also

Giving in to the Thalmor makes them stronger not weaker. You can say the empire is biding its time building up for a new fight but then so are the Thalmor. The empire will never be strong enough to beat the Thalmor if they arent now. They sold out skyrim for the peace treaty. They do not protect skyrim at all. So what good are they then?

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That rule was established before the voice was considered a weapon. When swords, bows, magic and such were the only things used. Even the gray beards isolated themselves when ulfric used it to slaughter his opponent before the king had a chance to do anything. An opponent could be the best fighter in the world, but if you strike before they even have a chance of doing anything that doesn't mean they're weak.

Also the thalmor dont want any side to win. I played the stormcloaksthe first time but im gonna try the imperials this time.

The king was in no way a match for ulfric even without voice.

Allowing the stormcloaks to achieve independence would allow speed up the thalmor plan to conquer tamriel. It's easier to kill multiple smaller waring enemies than one large united one. By signing that treaty the empire gave itself some breathing room to regain some ability to resist them.

That made no sense, do you understand what biding ones time means?

Yeah the Thalmor can build up too but perhaps the Empire will build up better (and they'll have Warriors with combat experiance).

How would Skyrim breaking from the Empire make the situation any better?

Ya i understand that to also im no lore master or anything but even without the voice ulfric would still win with his manly voice lolol

Exactly! If ulfric had used his skill instead of his unfair advantage it would have been by the old nord tradition. Even the people there would have seen it as an honorable duel instead of murder. Still the high king admitted that he would have supported ulfric if he plainly asked the king to, but ulfric desired power more than he cared for the people of skyrim and its traditions.

On a side note I would completely support the Empire if the Thalmor were out of the equation

At this time if you support the Stormcloaks, you are inadvertently supporting Thalmor. The Empire was the entity at war with Thalmor. They suffered greatly, and by they I mean all races that make up the Empire - including Nords. In the end a peace that was forced upon them came with a condition of the banning of Talos worship. Nobody in the Empire wanted this, but they had to agree.

Even then it wasn't enforced by the Empire until the rebellion. The Stormcloaks don't want to get rid of Thalmor, they want rid of everything that isn't Nord. They are the racist supremacists of Tamriel. Ungrateful for the Empires efforts (and thus the sacrifice of countless Nords who fought in the Empires name) they want the power to themselves utterly naive that should the rebellion win, the Thalmor will eat them alive, and then consume the rest of the weakened Empire thereafter.

In the here and now, if you hate the Thalmor above all else, you should join the Empire. Fight the good fight to quell the rebellion, to make a strong Empire to make a final and decisive stand against the Thalmor, and then, and only then, consider the options for Nord independence.

The Stormcloaks are an arrogant racist niave group who are fighting the wrong side at the wrong time.

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No one in game is saying it was murder because he shouldnt have used a shout. The ones calling it murder are lying by omission by not telling the part about it being a challenge.

Oh and the racism, the dictator for a leader, the uncontrollable chaos, and terrible up keep of stormcloak territory.

I am in the same boat. I'm going with the empire first play through and Stormcloaks second.
I really tend to agree with the legion however, especially after entering the Palace in Windhelm and overhearing Ulfric and his second. There is a reference in game ( can't remember where) where an argument is the Thalmor predicted the signing of the White Concordant and was intentional to bring on the civil war and dwindle everyone's resources so they could easily win in a new war. One thing to remember is Thalmor hate all men so that makes that argument more believable.
Having not finished the game, I think the Empire is invaluable to finally thwart back the Thalmor because of their hold in other lands. A great set up for TES VI IMO (because all I know thus far is Thalmor has little role in Skyrim)

i guess you have to understand the lore

1: Talos was a Nord (The first Dragonborn seen after the extinction of the dragon)that created the empire

2: The Thalmor (which are Wood Elves but most are High Elves) isolated themselves on a small island during the Oblivion crisis to strengthen their power and used their magery to conceal themselves.

3: The Thalmor asked the Empire stop worshiping Talos and give them some Land (Hammerfell) and the disbanding of the Blades (Plus money) . The Empire rejected the idea ... The Great War Started.

4: They fought and at some point both side were exhausted.(Mostly thanks to the Nords)... The Empire accepted the treaty (WHAT???) .. That pissed off Skyrim and the RedGuards.. The Redguard still fight the Thalmor and Skyrim Civil war started .

5: And thus you have to choose .. The Empire that are the little puppet of the Thalmor ... Or the Nords who want no Thalmor [censored] just like the Redguards.

Talos is REALLY important for the NORDS and really they're mostly the reason why the Empire haven't lost to the Thalmor ..

Someone is solitude, can't remember exactly who, said something about ulfric making the duel unfair. It is also clear that it was an attempt at power by ulfric.

Stormcloak racial superiority at its best, but all joking aside. The empire only formally banned the worship of talos. They never had any plans of enforcing it until ulfric started his rebellion which caused the thalmor to make sure the empire did something. Even after the thalmor arrived in skyrim the empire doesn't do much to stop talos worship and even several high ranking soldiers admitted to worshiping him.

As you said, talos was a nord, who is worshipped by nords, a nord who created the empire. By trying to gain independence from the very thing their diety created they are doing far worse to talos than the empire.

Hammerfell was only able to resist because the majority of the thalmor military was weakened from the great war.

Empire is weak and should be crush and The Thalmor are no so powerful they have try to take other places and fail like Hammerfell and their not with the empire anymore since the treaty so there is no need to worry about them taking over Tamriel. If dragonborn Join the Stormcloaks there will be a person who can use the power of the voice and one who is a master of it seems like a win win to me.

Damn it, don't just type the word "spoiler" and then type the information directly after it! Learn how to use a spoiler tag or don't post it. Thanks a lot.

They only failed because they were weakened, sent a smaller invasion force, and had to fight guerilla tactics. They withdrew with substantial losses on both sides.

I agree that the dragonborn could essentially solve all problems, but the stormcloaks are led by ulfric, a power hungry dictator who doesn't care about anybody but those who support him.

This is the way I see it.

The empire signed the treaty with the Thalmor to keep peace, that doesn't mean they liked it. They do want to fight against the Thalmor, and gain complete control over their Empire again, and get rid of them, but, the Stormcloak rebellion has distracted the empire from their actual goals and weakened them as well. If they become to weak the Thalmor could COMPLETELY take over the Empire, meaning even if the Stormcloaks win and move on to fight the Thalmor, the Thalmor will be way to strong for Skyrim alone to take on.

Now, if Ulfric were to stop this war, or better yet, join forces with the Empire, they could easily take back their land from the Thalmor and things could return to the way they use to be (for the most part). The empire has always put peace and safety of its residence first, the Empire may hold throne in Cyrodill but the Empire is actually about every province that allies with them.

Also, the Empire IS NOT mainly Imperials, Imperials reside in Cyrodill, yes, but the Nords made the empire great, Tiber Septim (Talos) being a Nord himself. So it doesn't make a ton of sense for Nords to break away form something that has always bin good for them, and has bin ruled by their own.

Another thing, The empire is keeping the Dominion (were the Thalmor came from) out of Skyrim, so things could be 10x worse.

And, finally. Even if Ulfric wins, against both Thalmor, and Empire, Racism will set in and replace the ban on Talos, probably meaning Dunmer, Khajiit, Argonians, and the rest of the elves, maybe even Imperials not allowed in Skyrim, at all. While if the Empire win against Ulfric, and Thalmor, Talos will be back, and Racism will not take place, thanks to the Empire being multi-cultural.

TL;DR
Stormcloaks = About NOW (screw the future all about Skyrim and Nords)
Empire = About the future (They believe they can put up with hard times to create a better future for all of Tamriel)

At first, I was all stoked about about joining the stormcloaks.

I didn't like the fact that the empire were trying to execute me. I escaped Helgen with the help of Ralof of Riverwood. He made some great points about joining Ulfric. Then I found out about the outlawing of Talos worship and thought that was wrong, and the nords were fighting for their beliefs and homeland and didn't really understand why some nords were joining the legion, besides the fact that Talos himself founded the legion. So I headed for Windhelm to join the rebellion.

Now for some background about my character. He is Devas Andrethi from House Telvanni, a Dunmer who was a refugee from the downfall of Vvardenfell. I love the Dunmer. They have proud culture from enduring the harshness of Morrowind, both from the harshness of the land, and from their own people. They have my respect and wanted to relive being one. I also love that their strength lies in both magic and stealth, they make great assassin rogue/mage hybrids and my character is a backstabby destruction/illusionist, with light armor. Dunmer look especially evil with their red eyes and dark purplish skin, but enough about me gushing over dark elves

So when I arrived in Windhelm to make my way to Ulfric, I passed through the "Gray" district and had a chat with my fellow Dunmer and Ulfric's treatment of my kinsman. I wasn't about to join a group lead by someone who forces Dunmer to live in squalor as second rate citizens.

I immediately turned around and headed to solitude and made my oath to the emperor!

For the Empire!

Here's the important details you won't be able to figure out in the game because they were given in either the lore forums by devs or you guys haven't been actually reading the in game books.

The only reason the world has existed as long as it has is because of Talos. He holds back the next kalpa. Gods need worship to be able to retain their power. The ban of Talos worship is what allowed Alduin to reawaken. The empire nearly destroyed the world by allowing that term. Mede didn't know it of course, but his acceptance of the concordat was more than the thalmor could have hoped for in that situation.

2nd. The entire thalmor attack force was wiped out at red ring. The one at Hammerfell was the only remaining one(And that one was defeated 5 years later) There was no need to sign the concordat.

3rd. Mede is a terrible leader that doesn't understand how to handle anything but Cyrodiil. It's better to have several allied independant nations than one supernation that can't coordinate.(And trust me, the redguards and nords would ally in a heartbeat to take on the thalmor. They'd welcome just about any race to join the fight.)


Oh and the fourth thing. The nords of windhelm have no problem with elves that actually try to fit in. There's a high elf running a stall in the marketplace doing just fine for herself because she didn't show up expecting a handout. Another elf actually living in the grey quarters confirms this. The grey quarter elves are mostly from great houses and were used to special treatement. You can go to any other stormcloak city and see plenty of non nords doing fine for themselves because they aren't being pompous asses.

But it's even better to have an Empire that's well coordinated.