StormcloakImperial, what I think should happen : V

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:04 am

Hello, for the past several years I have played The elder scrolls many times and I can say that I know the lore better than most. After beating both imperial and stormcloak questlines I was actually quite dissapointed because of the lack of end game content for both factions. I wanted the stormcloaks to drive the elves out of their embassay after the questline. But no, apperently no one but myself likes a good story

. I just think that bethesda could of done a much better job with the game content for the civil war. I wanted the Empire to keep on trying to retake Skyrim afterwards, I wanted more fights, something to do! Which brings me to the best question in skyrim so far, do you guys like the stormcloaks or the empire? I will tell you now I like the stormcloaks. (duh lol)

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:54 am

Well, maybe some quest where you have to convince the former Jarls that stormcloak/imperial is the best for skyrim? I don't know honestly.
I am a stormcloak supporter myself.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:18 am

Stormcloaks by far. The first elder scrolls game I played was skyrim on my ps3 so I chose a nord and I fell in love with them. Ive since played the rest. (the first three on my weak PC) and I always played as a nord. I tried killing off the Thalmor at the embassy but I couldnt get in. I killed all of them outside and in the guard house. Nords are racists but imperials are snobs and the Stormcloacks are by far the strongest.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:26 am

Agree, civil war can be done so much better.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:00 am

Stormcloaks by far. The first elder scrolls game I played was skyrim on my ps3 so I chose a nord and I fell in love with them. Ive since played the rest. (the first three on my weak PC) and I always played as a nord. I tried killing off the Thalmor at the embassy but I couldnt get in. I killed all of them outside and in the guard house. Nords are racists but imperials are snobs and the Stormcloacks are by far the strongest.

Not all nords are racist though, Ralof for example is very open to any other race.
My stormcloak characters are not racists either, they just lost faith in the Empire.

If only I could persuade Ulfric with the Dunmer/Argonian problem in Windhelm... :stare:

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:14 am

Thats deep, but I agree. I find it annoying because I had this dunmer follower and some guard was tuning him in riften.
Nords are the best though, theyre strong, if you have fire ressistent armour you are invincible to dragons, they have good stamina and aren't short and are surprisingly good with spells.
Nords through and through for me!!!

» Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:41 pm

The setup is very good, but there definitely could have been more resolution and development. I wonder if they didn't know how people would react to the storyline. It's not your typical guild quest line and is more grey than the usual goodies vs. baddies story.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:41 am

Not all nords are rascist though, Ralof for example is very open to any other race.
My stormcloak characters are not rascists either, they just lost faith in the Empire.

If only I could persuade Ulfric with the Dunmer/Argonian problem in Windhelm... :stare:

There are racists in every group/political faction...in Skyrim, in the real world....some are even comprised almost entirely of racists, ie. the Thalmor.

The Dunmer have been in the Snow (Grey) Quarter for 150+ years...apparently without any access to paint or brooms. Prior to that they were slavers in Morrowind. They are described in the Lore as being "clannish" and "distrustful of other races." If, in 150 years, only one or two has had the initiative to get out of the Grey Quarter, perhaps they need to read more Shakespeare...ie. "the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves."

Or Walt Kelly "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Ulfric is in the middle of a war to free Skyrim from under the thumb of the Thalmor and its Imperial lackeys, creating a nanny state for a small and singularly uncooperative portion of the population is unrealistic and logistically impossible.

Ironically, in the aftermath of an Imperial victory, Brunwuff does nothing about the Dunmer or the Argonians either.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:23 am

I went empire, because I liked them in oblivion, I also chose empire because the empire is fully aware that the Thalmor are trouble and they need all allies of the empire to come together, that's why they were in Skyrim to begin with. So by that logic if you choose stormcloaks you're ultimately hurting everything if Thalmor decided to invade in full force at some point in the future.

Ultimately I went empire, the nords should be under the empires command and they should have been smarter than to know the empire would ever have sided with the Thalmor.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:46 am

There are racists in every group/political faction...in Skyrim, in the real world....some are even comprised almost entirely of racists, ie. the Thalmor.

The Dunmer have been in the Snow (Grey) Quarter for 150+ years...apparently without any access to paint or brooms. Prior to that they were slavers in Morrowind. They are described in the Lore as being "clannish" and "distrustful of other races." If, in 150 years, only one or two has had the initiative to get out of the Grey Quarter, perhaps they need to read more Shakespeare...ie. "the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves."

Or Walt Kelly "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Ulfric is in the middle of a war to free Skyrim from under the thumb of the Thalmor and its Imperial lackeys, creating a nanny state for a small and singularly uncooperative portion of the population is unrealistic and logistically impossible.

Ironically, in the aftermath of an Imperial victory, Brunwuff does nothing about the Dunmer or the Argonians either.

Even though we are talking about people who do not even exist. This sounds like it could have happened in real. :ohmy:

You got me though, giving the dark elves a better living is not easily done in a war. Especially since dark elves are refugees.
But, I actually ment the attitude ''some'' (Drunk guy in Windhelm who ''mysteriously'' got decapitated) have against them.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:30 am

I admire the spirit and nationalism of the Stormcloaks, but prefer the Empire. They are more cosmopolitan and would do a far better job of running Skyrim. Victory of the Stormcloaks would just cause in fighting between the Jarls and further weaken Skyrim for the Thalmor.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:48 am

Hello, for the past several years I have played The elder scrolls many times and I can say that I know the lore better than most. After beating both imperial and stormcloak questlines I was actually quite dissapointed because of the lack of end game content for both factions. I wanted the stormcloaks to drive the elves out of their embassay after the questline.

Spoiler

It would make sense and be the logical outcome, but it's impossible for gameplay reasons. The Embassy is one of two Thalmor-held locations in Skyrim that is *required* to remain "as is" even after a Stormcloak victory because it is the destination location for a quest that is not part of the CW storyline. Both of the associated quests would be irretrievably broken if the game had those locations cleared of Thalmor before the player went there to finish or advance them. In the case of the Embassy, we're talking about the Main Quest and since that part of the MQ can easily be put off until after a player finishes the CW storyline the location has to remain untouched until the player him/herself gets there on MQ business. Even using the console to "cheat" your way in before you are there for the MQ will trigger stuff from the MQ whether the player is ready for it or not and can bug out your game. And just imagine the reaction from players if the game let it be cleared during or after the CW and then they decided to finish the MQ and found it was completely broken because of it.

I actually RP that part of the MQ (as well as the other quest involving the Thalmor) into the end of the CW storyline, because it makes sense to me to do so. I'm on PC so after I no longer need the Embassy location for any quest-related purposes I just go back there and use the console to get in again and take out whatever Thalmor remain. Using the console also lets me make Elenwen killable, so that's a big bonus. Using mods that let me have Ulfric as a follower is the most awesome thing ever for that little adventure, since it lets me take him along, initiate hostilities, and then stand back and watch him finish her off himself. :smile:

I just think that bethesda could of done a much better job with the game content for the civil war. I wanted the Empire to keep on trying to retake Skyrim afterwards, I wanted more fights, something to do!

Spoiler

The Legion is still present in various camps throughout Skyrim even after the Stormcloaks win (same goes for the SCs if you win for the other side). Your CO of choice will tell you this at the end of the CW questline and task you with eliminating the remnants of the enemy when and where you find them. This is somewhat unsatisfying when you try to do that and discover that all the enemy commanders are still marked as essential due to an apparent oversight. That can be fixed by mods, as can the issue of "not enough" CW-related combat activity, but if you're on console then taking out the nonessentials in those camps or dealing with the occasional randomly encountered enemy patrol is as good as it gets.

Which brings me to the best question in skyrim so far, do you guys like the stormcloaks or the empire? I will tell you now I like the stormcloaks. (duh lol)

Stormcloaks, because of reasons. :tongue:

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:55 am

In the long run, the Empire is the best for Skyrim. Sure as a Stormcloak, you've liberated yourself from the Empire and can worship Talos, but eventually, the Aldmeri Dominion will start pouring in.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:34 am

I go with the Empire, cause in every game after Morrowind I play as an Imperial, I like the Empire's discipline, organisation and education more than Nord barbarians, and of course I believe Ulfric is a traitor. He is hypocrite and I believe he works for the Thalmor. (Why would they leave him after he got captured? He must have made a deal or something).

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:50 am

and of course I believe Ulfric is a traitor. He is hypocrite and I believe he works for the Thalmor. (Why would they leave him after he got captured? He must have made a deal or something).

Try reading their dossier on him. Or try reading it again, more slowly this time. :smile:

If he were an actual Thalmor agent, it would be noted as such in their official internal documents. It's not. He's an asset, not an agent, which means that they believe the things he does or is likely to do can be manipulated by them to their own benefit. Having made that assessment it's really no wonder why he was allowed to escape.

And please note that he was allowed to escape. It says that very clearly. You do not have to "allow" someone to escape unless you want them to get away believing that you are still their enemy and that they had to escape because they would not get loose otherwise. If Ulfric had been turned into a willing co-conspirator they would not need to maintain the pretense that he was escaping from them; they simply would have let him go and their internal documents would reflect that.

The dossier also says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. The Thalmor do not want Skyrim to end up a free country that is no longer under Imperial control or bound by the terms of the WGC. If Ulfric were working for them this would not be the case, since everything he is doing would be dictated by their agenda and clearly his forces beating the Legion and taking control of the province are not part of that. And yet that is exactly what he is trying to do and will do if he gets the chance.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:10 am

The dossier also says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided.

It's surprising how many seem to have missed this.

Also, it seems that many don't understand that "interrogated" is Thalmor for "tortured".

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:03 am

Try reading their dossier on him. Or try reading it again, more slowly this time. :smile:

...
The dossier also says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. The Thalmor do not want Skyrim to end up a free country that is no longer under Imperial control or bound by the terms of the WGC.
...

And...An independent Skyrim would either force the Thalmor to abandon their agents in Skyrim or commit more troops there. Without Imperial support and troops in Skyrim to control the province, the Thalmor would have to make up the deficit.

Additionally, an independent Skyrim frees up Imperial troops to concentrate on their supposed goal of re-arming and preparing for war against the AD.

What people forget or deliberately ignore is that the Thalmor aren't sitting on their duffs all this time. They're getting stronger too. Their presence in Skyrim and in Cyrodiil only strengthens their position militarily...simply because they're collecting intelligence on troop strengths and dispositions.

Finally, Skyrim want's independence...they won't necessarily shun High Rock or Cyrodiil or Hammerfell. Trade is important for a mountainous province that doesn't have all that much farmland. And every province of men on Tamriel knows full well that the AD wants to exterminate all men...so the next war with them will be to the death and to sit it out would be suicide.

But as a suppressed colonial state...under the Imperial thumb...Skyrim, from jarls to individual soldiers, will have much less enthusiasm for the fight.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:50 am

"they won't necessarily shun High Rock or Cyrodiil or Hammerfell."

Except the Empire, of which High Rock is still a province, and Cyrodiil is the capital, just lost a great, great, great deal of troops up in Skyrim to a violent rebel uprising. Just because people think Ulfric's going to be the next best High King and suddenly turn to a doctrine of peaceful coexistence doesn't mean the Empire is going to say "Oh, well in THAT case."

Skyrim doesn't really have anything worth mentioning to export. Almost everything but "dragons" and "genuine Nord mead" can be found in every other province. With the exception of a few southern farming communities and Whiterun, Skyrim has extremely inhospitable locations for farming and the only two jobs seen in abundance other than "Guard" are lumberjack (have you seen all those forests in Cyrodil?) or miner (have you seen all those mines in the other games?). The Solitude and Windhelm docks mostly import, not export; the East Empire Company Warehouse in Solitude is pretty substantial proof of this.

Maybe they could work out a trade arrangement with Hammerfell as one free-country to another but I wouldn't really look to the desert as a source of abundance.

The Stormcloak rebellion is an extremely short-sighted thing that has no real sustainable future. But you can starve to death claiming to be true Sons of Skyrim, and that has to be worth something!

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:15 am

I believe that the Stormcloak and Imperial questlines should have been created to be more unique. Both primarily consist of claiming enemy forts in their respective Holds. They could have been more creative when it came to infiltrating each Hold's infrastructure (e.g. bribing Jarl Igmund's steward, confronting couriers, etc).

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:05 am

I kind of "ruined" the civil war for myself because I sincerely thought it was part of the main storyline when I was originally playing, reinforced by the fact you can't even continue it without becoming the Dragonborn. Eventually I decided "Whoa! There must be like.. TWO main questlines going on in Skyrim! How amazing!" and then it all kind of came to an abrupt halt at the end.

It's my own fault for hyping it so much in my mind to begin with, honestly. People have to keep in mind the Civil War is more or less fought like a geurilla warfare engagement due to Skyrim's general landscape and the fact not everyone belongs to one side or the other, massive sprawling marches of army vs. army would leave too many neutral combatants up poo creek without a paddle. It genuinely makes sense that it's more or less "inconvenience enemy here, then take this strategic location" rather than marching on every single town.

I do think there could have been more intrigue to it, but the Civil War line felt like it was supposed to invite any character archetype to be able to join and participate without worrying about their skillset very much. A great deal of JUST spycraft would have too heavily favored the Thief set.

» Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:53 pm

Honestly, I like that Bethesda had it so you could join the Imperial, Stormcloaks or neither.. but there should've been an option on the Stormcloak side to ursurp Ulfric and take the High King title for yourself. The whole point of Skyrim is to do what you want.. I can become the leader of all of these amazing factions but I can't be the High King of Skyrim? (Nevermind the fact that the High King is never even crowned post-game.. it's just talked about whenever you talk to Ulfric and he mentions the Kingsmoot.)

Maybe an idea for some future DLC.. or a modder. :wink:

EDIT: If not the High King title, then you should at least be able to become a Jarl of one of the holds in the end.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:53 am

And...An independent Skyrim would either force the Thalmor to abandon their agents in Skyrim or commit more troops there. Without Imperial support and troops in Skyrim to control the province, the Thalmor would have to make up the deficit.

It wouldn't be a matter of making up the deficit, the Thalmor would either have to leave Skyrim or fight openly - without Imperial support - in order to maintain any presence there at all. The only reason the Thalmor are in Skyrim - legally and officially - is to enforce the WGC. The only reason they can do that is because Skyrim is an Imperial province and the Empire is required to allow them to do it in Imperial territory. They are there only because the Empire must permit it and support it or violate the treaty, which they are clearly not willing to do at present.

If Skyrim is no longer a part of the Empire, they are not bound by the WGC and the Thalmor have no right to be there to enforce it. If they remain in Skyrim at all it will be as agents who were sent there by a foreign power and who refuse to leave even though they have no legal right to stay and the new government considers them an enemy. They will become enemy combatants by their continued presence, they will either have to leave or they will be considered "at war" with Skyrim whether they like it or not. And if they want to make an all out war of it, just getting to Skyrim to fight it is going to be extremely difficult and make them vulnerable to attack by other enemies. I doubt the rest of "free Tamriel" is going to just let the Dominion march its armies across the continent and risk losing another huge chunk of it to their control.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:42 pm

Empire for me, I love dark elves even though vanilla graphics make them look like crap, so I dislike ulfric, I hate tullius too though. Tried to have me executed and I unno what I even did wrong, just woke up in a carriage

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:18 am

Honestly, I like that Bethesda had it so you could join the Imperial, Stormcloaks or neither.. but there should've been an option on the Stormcloak side to ursurp Ulfric and take the High King title for yourself. The whole point of Skyrim is to do what you want.. I can become the leader of all of these amazing factions but I can't be the High King of Skyrim? (Nevermind the fact that the High King is never even crowned post-game.. it's just talked about whenever you talk to Ulfric and he mentions the Kingsmoot.)

Maybe an idea for some future DLC.. or a modder. :wink:

EDIT: If not the High King title, then you should at least be able to become a Jarl of one of the holds in the end.

There are always limits on what you can do even in an open world RPG. The high kingship only makes sense for a Nord, and the PC also is (probably) not a member of the old families who would have legitimate claim to the kingship. This isn't a democracy.

I would like to see the moot, or some further development of the civil war, in DLC, but I doubt we'll see it. Too expensive to bring in those voice actors and too difficult to account for all player variables.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:14 am

Honestly, I like that Bethesda had it so you could join the Imperial, Stormcloaks or neither.. but there should've been an option on the Stormcloak side to ursurp Ulfric and take the High King title for yourself. If not the High King title, then you should at least be able to become a Jarl of one of the holds in the end.

The title of High King/Queen, in the absence of a direct heir to the former ruler (which is the case here), is not something that you just take. The Jarls have a Moot and vote on it, and based on what little we know about that tradition the candidates for the position are limited to the current Jarls themselves and possibly other suitable members of Skyrim's noble families.

So unless you are a Nord and come from one of the proper bloodlines, you aren't ever going to be made a Jarl, much less the High ruler of the country. The first requirement alone makes it difficult, if not impossible, to write a story where every possible player character somehow ends up in either of those positions.

Edit: ninja'd.