Allow me to begin this thread on a positive note. In regards to the new skill and leveling system in Skyrim, I find it very innovative. Although I'm sure many hardcoe RPG players will argue that Skyrim has drifted too far away from a stat-driven game and crossed the line into its own genre - a medieval action game - I at least understand the reasoning behind dumbing down the stat system to a more streamline "pick-up-and-play" style of RPG.

However, with most new things, flaws can be evident, annoying, and down right game-breaking. While I'm sure other threads have touched based on a few of my points, I thought it necessary to begin a more comprehensive argument to point out the exact spots within the system that are utterly flawed.

Argument 1: Useless perks are useless. Having logged several hours in the game, I regret choosing some of the perks that I have, especially now that those perk points are increasingly more difficult to obtain. Frankly, many of the perks within the various skill trees are useless, especially when the Enchanting skill is tossed into the mix. All those perks which reduce the magicka cost of certain skill levels of spells become utterly useless, all because you can fully negate the magicka cost of ALL spells within a school using enchanting. In fact, its quite easy to negate the cost of two full schools of magicka with a full set of armor, and you still have room for further enchantments to beef up other skills. And, keep in mind, this is with vanilla 100 enchanting and the dual-enchantment perk. No crazy enchanting potions or anything like that tossed into the mix.

Argument 2: Useless skills are useless. The gap between role-playing game and medieval action game becomes all too apparent when the roleplaying skills are nigh impossible to utilize. Namely, I'm talking about the Speech skill. For one, its a grueling skill to level up. Having completed a certain faction's quests, and having sold hundreds of thousands of gold worth in loot, I've only managed to get the skill up to 61. And of course, I haven't gotten to invest any perks into the skill, since the game demands combat prowess, less you want that dragon to one-shot you. After all, even if I had a speech of 100 and all perks therein, most of the enemies in the game would rather shove a fireball into your face than ever talk. And why would I want to invest into those perks anyway? So I can get more money for my loot? What am I supposed to spend that money on? Another house? Hire another loot mule...I mean...companion?

Argument 3: So many perks, so few perk points. Now, you can make the argument that you're not supposed to have it all. After all, if my main character could do everything in the game, then my replay value suddenly plummets. That being said, the perk system seems unbalanced when you consider the different possible playstyles within the game. I personally play the thief/assassin archtype, and I find that I simply do not have enough perk points to unleash the full potential of the skills needed for the job. After all, I need to worry about a weapon skill or two (if you include archery), an armor skill, sneak, lockpicking, and pickpocket for starters. Most sneaky types will, of course, be interested in dabbling in Illusion magic for that lovely invisibility spell and silent casting perk. That's a lot of skill trees, and a lot of perk points. Meanwhile, using the example from Argument 1, a mage could quite possibly have a surplus of perk points. After enchanting a set of gear to reduce the magicka costs of his/her two favorite schools of magic, the only perks he/she need worry about are the "Novice _____" and "_____ Dual-Casting" perks of those schools. Okay, maybe not quite. Of course, you'll want the higher-up perks of the Illusion and Conjuration schools, should you choose to cast those schools at all as a mage. And some of the Alteration perks if you intend on playing the "cloth" caster. But even then, it seems to me like the mage will still have a greater surplus of perk points than the rogue. I could argue the same for the warrior, because lets face it - as such, you're going to pick a weapon skill, a type of armor, smithing, archery, and that's about it.

tl;dr: Perk system is broke, game is easily breakable without much effort, and somebody stole my sweetroll.

Argument 4: Circle shaped perk trees are not circles. If skill's perk tree goes to the same target by two different ways you are not able to continue picking up perks after the highest perk. Example if you pick up perks on smithing tree up to Dragon smithing you are not able to continue line to pick up the next perk. (If you have got to Dragon smithing via Elven and glass you're not able to pick Daedric smithing perk and other way if you have got to dragon smithing via Daedric perk you are not able to pick glass smithing perk.)

Good points. It's not something that will be too difficult for the modders to correct, thankfully, but i really do think the perk system svcks, and the layout for it just screams "gimmick".

You've not yet understood the character developement in this game, hense you think it's broken. You still think that "experience" is the key to improving your character, when in this game it's all about perks. Characters with few skills will not have as high a finishing level, and so will have fewer perks. Characters, like your cloth mage, will use many skills, thus a higher character level, and will have more perks. Seems like this is one area that they actually got ballanced. It's thrown out of balance by people thinking they need to play their warrior at the same character level that they play their wizard... just because they can.

Naw, you don't have any surplus of perks as a mage. I am at level 43 or so with my no-armor no-weapons mage character and still have to think about where I want to put each one.

But though it's kind of contradictory, I don't think it's that big a deal if you waste a few 'cos you didn't get how stuff would play out. In many ways, the weaker you are, the more fun the game is. I'm deliberately keeping my mage at 100 health for that reason. I think the only perk I feel was wasted was taking a lockpick perk for my thief, but he still owns everything on Expert. No point getting too obsessive.

I personally do not want to get enchanting up to where Magicka is irrelevant. This counts as breaking the game for yourself as far as I am concerned. My mage got up to 100 enchanting but isn't going to put in the perks up to that level. I want to get some kind of satisfaction out of loot. I just enchant bits and pieces to supplement loot. I'd rather put those three perks into Destruction or something.

To the OP:

Those are all very good points. I wonder had the just simply modified the stat system in the previous TES games (I know Oblivion was stacked and mostly confusing on how to level skills to gain XP), that they could have implemented a leaner perk system instead. I mean seriously, there are 251 perks total and 3/4 of them are really unneeded, since getting the ones that may make any difference, you would already be leveled high enough to be a near god with the enchanting and smithing skills.


I think I see what you mean there. The problem though isn't that you cannot choose on farther with the tree, that the tree should have been branched apart and not connect all the way through. Dragon smithing to Daedra smithing is simply light armor to heavy armor. If you start from the bottom and go left, you get light armor, the opposite way is obvious as you could connect to Dragon after Daedra . That "connect the dots" is broken because it doesn't give any indicator that you cannot go on from any side and/or that one side is a different set system than the other.

I like the perk system myself, I find it a great way to flesh out my warrior, I think the point you are missing is that you are not supposed to be able to unlock every perk. My warrior is a sword and sheild fighter, so in one handed why would I unlock the perks for blunt, weapons, axes, or dual weilding??? I don't because I don't use them, maybe my next guy will be a mace toting mage, so I will want to unlock some of the mace perks in one handed, but not the others. So I think the perk system allows you to make each character you create unique, and improves replay value.

I can understand some of what you're saying, but what I completely disagree with is your Enchanting example. Sure, you CAN use Enchanting to pretty much negate every skill, or need to perk another skill. But what of builds who don't Enchant? Until Skyrim there was always multiple ways of doing things. Alteration could open locks, did that make Security useless in Oblivion and Morrowind? Of course not, it was down to your character.

I don't use enchanting, therefore highly perking Restoration is very useful.

The whole system is broken when you can level up by just making endless iron daggers.

You have to choose to do that.

it shouldn't be allowed. Gothic 3 has a much better levelling system based on experience points, so you cannot cheat by just levelling up one perk endlessly so it improves your whole skill level.

You can raise your magic skills by pushing a button... it's a game, not real life.

Good points but none that effect me. I play as a warrior that specialises in one handed combat and archery. I am also a master in conjuration with that skill at 100. I wear enchanter light and heavy armour and so are most of my weapons that I picked up from the dead and chests from quests. I am enjoying the mix of styles that I am using in the game and guess what, I have 11 perks that I have still not used because I don't need to use them to play the way I want. Yes I could put some into armour, smithing, enchantment but as yet I don't feel the need and I'm at level 46 in the game do far. So I don't think there is a problem with the perk system it's just that you have a problem with it.

Does the same not happen when you repeatedly use a sword, magic, conjure the same creature, open locks. what are you on about

Well that's more experience, which is different. The fact remains you can level up as I said which is a broken and flawed system.

As I said, that's experience of using such skills which makes sense. You get more skilled as you use them and it's not the same as using smithing to make endless daggers to level up because there should be a limit in that regard, hence why I referred to Gothic3's system.

If Beth did it like that, we'd have just as many people complaining that "you've taken away my freedom to do what I want".

I am in the camp where I don't think it makes sense to grind 1000 iron daggers then complain the game shouldn't let you do that. Just take the skill points and the perks when you think you need them.

When people only make daggers to level up doesnt mean its broken... it's called abusing.

Edit: Example: raise restoration and destruction on a horse... same thing.

Flawed designs are always abused and you cannot do this in Gothic 3 because the system isn't flawed like that. Kind of reminds me of the perks system in CoD and such games, it's terribly biased and flawed.

so your saying that if your a blacksmith in real life and you make the same things over and over again then they will not get better at making that chosen item and become one of the best blacksmiths and people saying get that blacksmith to make those things he is skilled in making it.

So now we're talking about real life or are you using at as leverage for your argument?

There was no dumbing down. The perk trees added complexity that was not present in past games.


Not all characters take enchanting, thus invalidating most of your argument. Naturally, some perks will be stronger than others.


I agree that gold is far too easy to come by, but roleplaying skills are for roleplaying. I perked lockpicking, pickpocketing and speech on my thief once his archery and sneak were sufficiently powerful. He was overpowered as hell in combat, and while the thiefly trees are not exactly mandatory, they made roleplaying the character that much more enjoyable.


Totally disagree. You can make a supremely overpowered thief with 20 odd perk points. You don't need any armor perks because they rarely get hit. You just need to perk sneak and either archery (don't even need to max the tree) or one-handed. All the other points you can freely place anywhere you want and the character will still faceroll everything on master. Of course, if you want to add bells and whistles such as illusion, you have to pay the price.

I do like the perks. Many of them were already present in Oblivion but they were compulsory and were just applied automatically when your skills reached 25, 50, 75, 100.
Skyrim provides more and you have to choose which allowed for a lot more customisation.

I have all the ones I have wanted so far and still have 5 spare perk points saved for away for later if I ever want to change my play style.

Many of the perks are pretty useless, but I think they are just intended as filler ones on the path towards the best high level perks.

I like the new system better then then three old, leveling by simply playing the way your want is awesome. The perk system definitely needs refined tho. I think it would be great if they simply just separated the noncombat related perks, speech, pickpocket and lock picking. Tyre game is entirely combat based and your really gimp yourself getting anything that doesn't help you kill (assuming you don't exploit crafting).

Also make lock picking like FO3. You have to have the skill level and perk before you can open a master chest. Then there is actually a reason for that tree to exist

Argument 1: True. Stealth trees are full of those and Mastery magic perks are indeed useless when you specialize in Enchanting. But, as always, modders will fix it - in fact, they already have. Simple Skyrim Spell Scaling Solution swaps effects from potions and enchantments: enchanted gear increases spell power, and potions reduce casting costs. Problem solved.

Argument 2: Can't argue with that. So many skill trees are useless. I like the Fence perk in the Speech tree, but on my level 36 character I still don't have high enough Speech to choose it, and really, at this point do I need it anymore? I'm swimming in gold, stealing is just for fun now.

Argument 3: You can't make a jack-of-all-trades character unless you go all the way up to level 81. You simply don't have enough perks available. But you CAN make an effective build of any type before reaching level 50. Take the thief/assassin you mentioned: two types of weapons, armor, sneak, pickpocket, illusion
http://skyrimcalculator.com/#36725

It's level 51, but there's a couple of perks you don't really need which I tossed in just to keep the sneaky-type feel. You also don't need to max out both one-handed and archery - if you play a stealth archer, very soon you find yourself not needing melee at all. I left out the entire Lockpicking tree, because it's useless.

Here's a pure mage:
http://skyrimcalculator.com/#36730
Level 49, all the perks I'll ever need and some more. I'm using Better Magic mod, but in a vanilla game I wouldn't perk Alteration at all. Maxing out Illusion, Conjuration and Destruction is an overkill as well, most mages will only use two of these schools. But if you want an Archmage build, here it is, all below level 50.


If anything, the number of perks we earn is nicely balanced. The system works well, but several non-combat skills weren't thought out properly. The perk concept is new in TES series and I believe the devs just didn't have a good plan how to put this all together. There are a few key issues that need to be adressed, but they are glaringly obvious and I believe they'll be fixed in the next game.
What worries me, though, is that the next game will probably have new skills and new perks. After all, that's what the wide audience wants - more variety. The previous TES games had pretty much the same skill system (the differences were minor and you didn't have to learn them every time). Now, with the perks introduced, every time they change something the balance will be destroyed and new problems will arise. I'm afraid that in TES VI they'll fix what was wrong in Skyrim, but at the same time they'll add new unbalanced features. That's why I don't like this new system...