In other games you talked with the NPCs, in Skyrim the NPCs talk with you. That's the big difference it seems.

open world with linear quests. dialog choices would have been nice. i would rather read the dialog then have no choices, screw voice acting if this is the alternative. do or do not is not 'choice'...

and if we only get 3 "stats" at the start we should at least get to allocate the 300 points how we want. my thief didn't want 100 magic at the start, i would have put those into health or stamina...

Good points, I agree.

The heart of this game is [censored]ting in the face of linear games, I think. It's a bit streamlined compared to most RPG's but not linear.

I actually tried to play this game as linear as possible (playing the game one city at a time, following where the main quest wants me to go) but the game just doesn't allow it


But you do make some good points, I feel like it is very streamlined I would just never call a game like this linear.

First time round, yes you get pushed into doing things, second time round you have a little idea of whats going to happen, third time round you should know what to avoid.
What I'm saying is that you go down the same path with every Char. Instead of going into the general merchant in Roikstead( sorry bout spelling) side steep the claw quest all together,or go in talke to him and when he asks you to do it tell him to work it up in him and you will get the quest later on when you try to buy a house in Whitrun.What I'm saying is yes you kinda get stuck with quest your first/second time round but if it's your forth-fifth time starting off in that town then you should know what to avoid.
And there is no big deal in missing out on some minor side quests, and most of the time you can ignor or refuse the quest and return to the quest giver at your leisur and pick the quest back up.It's not that linear your choices of paths are linear, the only thing I see missing is the fact that you can become Thane or a hero and there is no change in the reaction.

It doesn't matter how many times you play you are pushed in the same way every time, so say I skip this merchant quest all together and go to another town that town is going to have all the same problems and unless I pull off some mission impossible moves I am going to be hitting scripted events ever couple of minutes.

Yeah I don't like the "blank slate" approach they have in Skyrim. By the time my character fleshes itself out and plays like how I want it to play, I am overpowered by that point and have nothing to look forward to. I think they could have created a hybrid system, whereby you select your Birthsign, Deity (optional), Race, Primary, Major, and Minor skills along with being able to choose some starting abilities/spells from your selected trees. The problem with Skyrim is that it IS too spreadsheety, the exact thing Todd set out to stop. There are way too many Perks that are modifiers, like Armsman that simply increase the damage by a percentage and are ranked. If you evaluate the Perk tree, you will soon see there are VERY few "unique" abilities granted that make your character feel like whatever class be it Pure or Hybrid you are aiming for.

The argument against this approach is "well I don't know what class I want to be at the start or what skills to pick!" I find this to be asinine as the blank slate approach does not correct this as you are having to make an investment BEFORE you know how that investment will be, and actually it is much worse because it takes LONGER to gauge its effectiveness. I like the Perk system idea and think that attributes do not need to be in the game, but they should have done a Hybrid progression system, not gone to the blank slate approach.

I agree - I would rather read the text with more choices, but that wouldn't sell very well these days. It's obvious that this game was fleshed out to appeal to a broader market which is fine since it's their company, and they are in business to make money, but it doesn't mean I still wouldn't like a deeper rpg game.

This. It takes way too long to distinguish your new character from the last one you made, and it's quite a commitment to make.

I just started a new character, an orc. I'm starting out by exploring all the outposts, not even entering a city or village. You don't have to do the main quest. You don't have to get involved in the civil war. You don't have to buy a house. Try doing something differently rather than complain about how everything works out the same.

And what if you went to those orc camps already..guess what they are going to be exactly the same every time.
And you don't even have to be an orc to experience it every time just get a pair of boots or what have you and your good.

Umm, I don't really get how this fits with your original complaint or if, now at least, you're just knee-jerk being defensive. I mean, do you expect all the outposts to be randomly generated on the map, and the same with its inhabitants, layout, etc.?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the quests themselves aren't mostly linear, but what quests you decide to do/not-do and in what order is mostly self-determinative and, therefore, non-linear. In order to have quests there have to be scripts of some kind which, by their nature, contain linear elements. Some games (RPG's mostly) will try to hide the linear nature of scripts via more decision trees, but at their root, they're still linear.

Skyrim, and ES in general, takes sort of the opposite approach as, say, Dragon Age by focusing non-linearity on the world and gameplay as a whole vs. via scripting trees in quests/dialogue. Some obviously feel cheated by lack of choice in the latter, whereas others feel emboldened by the freedom of the former. To each their own.

I guess I would just do something else I never thought of doing. I've done all the main quest lines except the Bard's college, so this character is simply living it. I'm pretty sure he's going to travel from outpost to outpost, and find himself a place. I might learn the CK well enough to build him a bunkhouse in one of the outposts... or just outside one. He'll trade with orcs and hunters but not bother with cities until it becomes absolutely necessary. I'll probably explore The Reach far more than I have with my previous characters, who only went there on specific quests.

You seem to be the type of forumite who likes to ask people their opinions and then tell them their opinions aren't valid. Good luck fitting in here.

You expect me to take you seriously after the first post you made. when you come at me with something like "Try doing something differently rather than complain about how everything works out the same"
and expect me to just take it, and you know what else I don't want to fit in anywhere that I have to change my opinion to match the "popular opinion"

Just like in Oblivion. Just like in Morrowind.

I'm not sure what you're expecting.... "non linear" and "open world" don't mean "randomly generated a different way every time."


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(I also disagree with your general complaint about quests being "thrust upon you" when you overhear NPCs speak. But, then, I've disagreed with several threads that have trotted out that same odd complaint over the past couple months. I don't see a possible quest being noted in your journal as being "forced" to do it.)

You might be seeing quests wrong. Quest means that you are being requested to do something. At that point is it not further up to you what the consequences will be. You are being lead through a series of events. What you really want is a game without any quests, but where it still feels as if everything you do has consequences, small and large.

TES games are moving into this direction, I think. It is likely just not possible to get there in one jump, but only by small changes. Too many radical changes and you might lose a large amount of your player base.

Take the quest journal for instance. It is one of the things I have noticed about Skyrim. At first do you only see quest markers and extremely sparse information on the quests. The true information however lies in the many journals that can be found in the game world. It is not just one single quest journal any longer, but it is an item in the game itself and that can be toyed with.

I hope Bethesda does the same with entire quest lines in their next games. To get away from quest lines to quest pieces and that these pieces become interchangeable.

It is so far very innovative what they have done with the journal, and maybe they have a lot more ideas like this, but only cannot implemented them as it would be too soon. But it is definitely something that I want to see in the future.

If that was what was advertised, then it's certainly not the case.

As far as character classes go the only difference is in how you fight or don't fight enemies.

The stories are always the same in every playthrough no mater what you do. I accept that and I"m fine with it. Technology has its limits. But the fact is the world doesn't change one bit depending on your character. The only things that can be different are if you break quests on accident and that's more of a bug than anything actually being different. And then there are quests that become broken if you didn't do anything to cause it. But that's a another story altogether.

how are they not thrust upon you, when you enter a town and even get close to these scripted events they just start happening and if you try to walk away you loose that content it cant be repeated but I do get this quest update and when I talk to the NPC later on they just assume that I was a part of that scripted event even when I am not.

I hope they are moving in this direction. I would like to see an open world without "quests" but where most actions had some type of consequence.

A scripted event is just that - an event on a strict script that triggers at the same point every time.

I can't imagine a game with scripted events where your "complaint" would not be valid - since that's the point - perhaps even the definition - of a scripted event.

Now, is it somewhat annoying to walk into a city for the first time, get hit with a scripted event that you're trying to follow, while at the same time still trying to get your bearings? Yes, it is. I lose something also, whether it's missing dialogue, or sometimes just not understanding who's who, and maybe getting confused about what just happened.

But, as someone else mentioned, what is the option? No quests at all? Or a randomly generated world, cities and people in random places every game, quests given by randomly chosen people each game?

No quests at all would be empty . . .just a world, people and places, and what would be my reason for being there?

Randomly generated everything . . .I have no idea if that's possible in this type of game. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But if this is what happened, think of this - no game guides, no forums where you can ask how to do something . . . because your game would be so unique, there's no way anyone - even the developers - could tell you who to talk to, where they are, or where you need to go to finish your quest.


No game is perfect. Skyrim is no exception. But to say you have no choice, that it's linear . . . I suggest you go play Dragon Age 2, then tell me if you still think Skyrim is linear.

Skyrim feels really linear to me mostly because of the quests and dungeons.
I mean, Labyrinthian is suppose to be a maze, but I can get from the beginning to the end of that dungeon with my eyes closed.
Almost all dungeons are linear and you simply have to follow the path to reach the end, and that's that.
Hell, lot of times I even don't look where I am going, and I always end up being where I need to be without any trouble.
Skyrim is designed for really, really, really simple people.

Those journals in the world are very cool. But those are very limited. I have quests in my journal log and I have no idea what they are about. Then I remember why I walked away.

Also the quests are becoming more and more linear with more scripted events with less and less consequences, that's the direction. I wish the direction was what you imagine.

Radiant story can change things in each playthrough. One person is kidnapped, where and who is different for everyone. This is a trust issue. They don't trust their content. Instead of adding world mechanics that can render quests exclusive, they removed all limitations and created radiant story to duplicate quests. So they wouldn't have to face http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik and content complaints.

The community needs to mature up and accept that the more unique, the better the experience will get. And that won't happen without sacrificing some things. The quality of earlier games was that world mechanics were taking care of that issue, not the railroader developer. Emergent gameplay. Random, raw and dynamic.

A game with no essentials, where every lock can be picked, where failure isn't banned. Where every NPC is unique, even bandits... Where quest items can be dropped. Where every container opens. Where player isn't locked to level appropriate enemies and loot. Where you can become friends or enemies with every NPC/group. Where player can always steer the wheel to different directions for different outcomes. Where your actions define your character, and your gameplay changes and evolves in response to your actions. Where freedom means more than walking around or walking away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr3TCWPlDrw

Anyways, I learned my lesson. I will never ask for better graphics or combat ever again. If I can't get my priorities straight, how can I influence Beth's?

Like I said earlier...it was designed to attract broader appeal. Nothing wrong with that, but I wish it had Morrowind's depth, journals, and soundtrack. (gotta admit morrowind's theme was the best)

Actually, there is a lot wrong with that.
As you can see, the game got dumbed down to the ground because of that.
And why the [censored] did they have to make everything so linear when simpletons have a GPS and a radar on their compass plus Clairvoyance spell.
Honestly, how stupid one would need to be in order to get lost with all that?

Umm, so turn the compass HUD off and don't use the spell. Some like the direction one or both of those give, others don't ... the game allows either option. Although, I *do* wish the character received more information about quests, locations, etc. and that those were in the journal -- which is, admittedly, more a log than a journal.