The Linear Nature of Skyrim : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:56 pm

People will whine about anything on an internet forum. Skyrim, linear? You want linear, play a Bioware RPG. The Elder Scrolls has always centered around exploration and a complete lack of linearity. How anyone could find this game too linear is beyond me. Any less direction and Skyrim would feel like Minecraft. *snicker* :sweat:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:37 pm

I agree to a point. I can see how characters at first can feel the same. I went from a pure warrior type to a pure mage, so they felt completely different from the start. But less drastically different characters I could see this happening to.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:21 pm

People will whine about anything on an internet forum. Skyrim, linear? You want linear, play a Bioware RPG. The Elder Scrolls has always centered around exploration and a complete lack of linearity. How anyone could find this game too linear is beyond me. Any less direction and Skyrim would feel like Minecraft. *snicker* :sweat:

I think you're getting confused. There's a difference between linear/nonlinear gameworlds and linear/nonlinear gameplay.

People aren't complaining about the freedom you have to move around the gameworld... they're complaining about scripted events that make you feel railroaded into certain quests, the lack of meaningful choices, the lack of branching questlines, etc.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:43 pm

On my second character, apart from the first 'major quest at Riverwood, and the Whiterun dragon, everything was different...different overheard conversations, different treatment and reactions from npc's...it really surprised me...hey, I'm even on friendly turns with the Jarl's housecarl in Whiterun and the 2 sourguts elves from Radiant Raiments...you can't get much more different than that.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:40 pm

I agree in some regards, but the character creation has always felt more or less the same for me. In Morrowind you got off the boat, chose how you wanted to choose your class, and were done. With Oblivion, you made your race, killed some stuff, chose a Birthsign, killed stuff, chose a class, and kill stuff. And in Skyrim, you go to your execution, choose your race, almost die, and enter the world.

I do wish they made some of the events less linear though. For example:

Spoiler

On the quest where you have to kill your very first dragon it would have been cool if they had 3 guard towers to choose from, one of which randomly gets destroyed.
In the Forsworn quest when you enter Markarth for the first time, it should only happen if you load the cell during normal business hours (8 am to 8 pm). It makes no sense that people are at their stalls at 2:30 am. Plus, if that scripted event starts only if you load the cell during business hours, you show up at 7:30 am, then go up to the Jarl and come out at 9:50 am, you would never see it but it would happen. Not only does it look like some responses were made to indicate such a thing, it would be more realistic. Why does everything only happen when the character is right there to experience it?
The same thing with the smith in Whiterun being asked to make more weapons for the Imperials. It happens at any time, which really makes no sense.

Spoiler

That extra dialog is in the event that the PC enters the city and runs right through the market place without "witnessing" the murder.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:30 pm

I agree in some regards, but the character creation has always felt more or less the same for me. In Morrowind you got off the boat, chose how you wanted to choose your class, and were done. With Oblivion, you made your race, killed some stuff, chose a Birthsign, killed stuff, chose a class, and kill stuff. And in Skyrim, you go to your execution, choose your race, almost die, and enter the world.

I do wish they made some of the events less linear though. For example:

Spoiler

On the quest where you have to kill your very first dragon it would have been cool if they had 3 guard towers to choose from, one of which randomly gets destroyed.
In the Forsworn quest when you enter Markarth for the first time, it should only happen if you load the cell during normal business hours (8 am to 8 pm). It makes no sense that people are at their stalls at 2:30 am. Plus, if that scripted event starts only if you load the cell during business hours, you show up at 7:30 am, then go up to the Jarl and come out at 9:50 am, you would never see it but it would happen. Not only does it look like some responses were made to indicate such a thing, it would be more realistic. Why does everything only happen when the character is right there to experience it?
The same thing with the smith in Whiterun being asked to make more weapons for the Imperials. It happens at any time, which really makes no sense.

Dialogue should also change when you kill that forsworn, its kind of weird that the guy talks like you never prevented it.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:09 pm

Progression was a lot slower in previous games (unless you used stupid grinding techniques like jumping on the spot repeatedly). You didn't have sudden leaps in ability like damage multiplier perks (even Bethesda themselves have admitted that one of their goals with perks has been to speed up the levelling process). Here's how I see it:

How is grinding techniques that the game is designed for you to do, and rewards you for using, stupid?? The way I see it, you are stupid not to use them since for all purposes they simply make your character better, with no risk and only rewards.

Previous games:

Unique character >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gradual progression >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all-powerful character who can become good at pretty much everything after hundreds of hours.

Skyrim:

Generic character >>> sudden leaps in ability >>> all-powerful character who can become good at a wide enough variety of things within 60-70 hours to make them seem just as generic as all-powerful characters in previous games.

It didn′t take hundreds of hours, 20 hours at most if you didn′t avoid farming skills. Sure, Skyrim is pretty much the same in regards to farming, but it's not like becoming overpowered rather quickly wasn't possible in previous games.

Perks are largely to blame for this. Not only do they speed up progression; they also completely fail in making a character unique. Perks only work well in an RPG if they're very limited, and truly are perks with unique effects. For the most part, Bethesda has done neither. Instead, they've used them to try and wrap normal skill progression in neat little packages.

In any game where you accept leveling mechanics, you accept leaps in progression no matter how you twist and turn it. Going from Speed 50 to Speed 100 over the course of 10 levels is an insanely fast progression rate, especially in regards to how much impact it has on the actual gameplay. In comparison the 10 perks I have picked up in Skyrim over those levels have changed my character far less in relation to the game difficulty than that factor alone.

Daggerfall was very much a niche game. If you're somehow implying that being in first-person POV and having real-time action somehow equates to an attempt at dumbing down the genre, you're very misinformed. First-person RPGs have been around pretty much since the genre started... and RPGs with real-time action have been around since the mid-late 80s.
The fact of the matter is, Daggerfall was clearly aimed at RPG fans. Skyrim is aimed at everyone with a games console or gaming PC.

Crosshairs, full 360 mouse controlled POV, similar graphics engine to Doom (originally developed using the EXACT same engine)...surely it wasn't a coincidence that one of the most successful computer games of all time had used these things 2 years earlier...

I am not misinformed, I played Daggerfall back in the day and I read and heard all those comments about it being 'dumbed down' compared to 'real' rpg's, just like they keep echoing now...doesn't mean that they were right or true or anything, but there was definitely the same kind of resistance to it as we hear about Skyrim now.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:07 pm

my khajiit is really different and plays different than my nord, not only because of the different build but also beacuse of the different race powers.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:30 pm

So you wanted somethig more like FNV? Where the quests changed by what faction you choose. Oh wait that was writen by Obsidian.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:22 pm

I don't understand this. When I want to play a mage, I immediately wear the first robes I get and use spells from the get go. If I want to play an archer I use a bow and arrows as soon as I get them. If I want to play a two-handed weapon warrior, I will wear heavy armor and... you get the idea.

And for a lot of people, that is the problem. Essentially, when you begin Skyrim, your name is Bubba. You just magically appear in that cart. You have no previous skills or education. No past (and I'm sorry, but nothing you brew between your ears counts. -If the game does not recognize it, then your are not roleplaying in the game; you are playing Make Believe and using the game as a visual crutch- ). You have no way to =generate= a past that the game recognizes. Things like weapons usage, any of the skills, takes training. If you can do something, you must have had training in it (It's always fun watching some dork who thinks they are good with a knife pick up a bastard sword; they usually hit themselves or wrench an elbow or wrist bad enough for a cast). If you have zero training or knowledge, you shouldn't be able to use a procedure or device properly.

The game allows you to play your "class" from the get go. In fact, it gives you quite a bit of option from the start, since you can choose whatever the hell you want to do. If your characters don't feel unique it's because you play them the same way every time. I think some people have a really hard time restraining themselves from using certain skills, which is kind of funny.

No, it allows you to be everything at once, with no training, no penalties, no work, no effort. You can be wearing full Ebony Plate and swim (unlike , for instance, Daggerfall, where how much weight you could carry and still keep your head above water was governed by your skill in swimming combined with you strength. If it wasn't high enough, you sank. If it was low enough, you went straight to the bottom. And you had a few choices; try and get back above water (not always possible), dump all that heavy gear until you could swim to the surface again (gee, just like it should happen....oops, I was stupid to try this now as the vampire ancient waiting for me--), or drown. Maybe its a generational thing, but I want to feel like I -accomplished something-, not reverse-metagamed the game to hang a lot of 'Well, my character is this and that and the other thing but not in the game, I'm imagining it all and who cares?'.

As for the rest of your post, I understand where you're coming from. I just don't really know how they could script events differently. A scripted event is a scripted event. Perhaps people have better ideas.

One way they could perhaps do it (I don't know if it's feasable with this engine) is a percentage chance of an event triggering. For example, a WWII strategy game I played a lot (and moded) would have a scripted event where Germany would declare war to Poland on September 1st, 1939, about 85% of the time. There was a small chance they would do it later or not do it at all (declare war to France and Britain directly), or there was a chance it would go to war sooner depending on other scripted events (Sudetland, reoccupation of the Rhineland, etc.)

I guess Bethesda could have some script say where "In my time of need" only has a 10% chance of triggering everytime you enter Whiterun. But then again, like someone said, you can just ignore the Alikr and not do the quest now.

But yes, some events I just know are going to happen beforehand, so I get your complaint.

Branching event trees. They have only existed in computers for decades, and are one of the fundamental design concepts that have gone into CRPG's since the first text game. Skyrim fell victim to shooter-itis. Bling over substance. It fell victim to the age of the console it was built for, which put a hard cap on the available ram it had to use. And it fell victim to, for lack of a better term, greed. They wanted to grow the user base by getting a lot of the 'casual gamers'.....meaning those who grab a controller, play until something distracts them, then quits. Which made anything requiring thought, dedication, or the willingness to spend more than 20 minutes at a specific task anathema. Unfortunately, they got a lot of newbies, so it looks like it worked. But the real test is yet to come. Daggerfall still has an active modding community around it 15 years after release (and despite having 1996 graphics). So does Morrowind. Oblivion has one as well, but the interest and activity seems to have fallen off in the last year or so. If Skyrim makes it to the next TES game, I will be very surprised. There simply is no engagement there. No meaning to your character even being there. No danger. No threat. And considering the powers and events at play, there should be some -very- hard decisions for you to make, and serious consequences no matter what you decide. Instead, there's.......nada.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Maybe its a generational thing, but I want to feel like I -accomplished something-, not reverse-metagamed the game to hang a lot of 'Well, my character is this and that and the other thing but not in the game, I'm imagining it all and who cares?'.

Yes, exactly!

Back in the days you could start a new build and think "Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to complete this-and-this quest line with this kind of character".

In Skyrim the answer is always "Yes, no sweat - but you could always imagine it was hard".

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:58 pm

Yes, exactly!

Back in the days you could start a new build and think "Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to complete this-and-this quest line with this kind of character".

In Skyrim the answer is always "Yes, no sweat - but you could always imagine it was hard".

If you are talking about TES back in the day then the answer was always:
"Yes, no sweat, since every character ends up maxed out in all attributes and necessary skills..."

Of course the question shold never be if it is possible, but rather 'how' it is possible given the advantages and disadvantages my character possess? A good story always has a solution if you are creative and clever with how you use your character's abilities.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:05 pm

Progression was a lot slower in previous games (unless you used stupid grinding techniques like jumping on the spot repeatedly). You didn't have sudden leaps in ability like damage multiplier perks (even Bethesda themselves have admitted that one of their goals with perks has been to speed up the levelling process). Here's how I see it:

Previous games:

Unique character >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gradual progression >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all-powerful character who can become good at pretty much everything after hundreds of hours.

Skyrim:

Generic character >>> sudden leaps in ability >>> all-powerful character who can become good at a wide enough variety of things within 60-70 hours to make them seem just as generic as all-powerful characters in previous games.

Perks are largely to blame for this. Not only do they speed up progression; they also completely fail in making a character unique. Perks only work well in an RPG if they're very limited, and truly are perks with unique effects. For the most part, Bethesda has done neither. Instead, they've used them to try and wrap normal skill progression in neat little packages.

And here is where I disagree with you, while previous games you started out as a class rather than a race, the only unique thing was that you were a thief with some specific major/minor skills. This was what separated you from anyone else. Whilst playing you grew stronger, and once you hit end level you had reached the point where you were Powerful and often could be just a good spellcaster as a pure fighter even if you started as a warrior. You build your character from being a class to becoming a jack of all trades person.

In Skyrim they instead of allowing you to start with a specific path makes you carve your own, so when leaving Helgen you are not unique in any way. However whilst playing you shape your character into what he becomes. So by playing you define the class and purpose of the character rather than becoming a jack of all trades.

Perks are the one thing in the game that makes this possible, No longer will having 100 in destruction mean you are as good as any pure spellcaster in casting fireballs. You have the same spells, but due to perks you can specialize and become even better then someone who doesn’t. When I made my new Character I knew I was going the sneaky path a mix between thief/assassin, and at higher levels she will be more and more specialized in this path then he is at level 8 as she is now. And the one thing that does this is that by choosing perks I will define my character and what it is. She will not be good in spellcasting as I don’t plan on take any perks there, neither will she be as good as a fighter as I don’t plan to use heavy armour nor 2 handed. My character will be good at sneaking about killing people unseen. My next character will most likely be a warrior type, maybe a warriormage and he will also be unique in his way as sneaking, pickpocketing etc is not going to be something he is good at. And that fact I like about skyrim over the previous ones. No longer is my warrior also a awesome thief and one of the best mages, but the perks and how I place them actually is what defines my character and makes him stand out as unique.

Daggerfall was very much a niche game. If you're somehow implying that being in first-person POV and having real-time action somehow equates to an attempt at dumbing down the genre, you're very misinformed. First-person RPGs have been around pretty much since the genre started... and RPGs with real-time action have been around since the mid-late 80s.

The fact of the matter is, Daggerfall was clearly aimed at RPG fans. Skyrim is aimed at everyone with a games console or gaming PC.

Daggerfall also came out at a time where consoles still wasn’t overly popular and didn’t compete with PC Gaming as they do today. Daggerfall was a game played by roleplayers and had a small community if you compare with modern gaming. Time changes so does gaming, PC gaming isn’t any longer something that a minority of the people do, it has become big business. With consoles like Xbox and Playstation the gaming was brought into every home more or less and today the amount of gamers is huge. So when realizing a new game today it is natural that companies want their game to reach as many as possible. That I why we see streamlining aka dumbing down happening in most genre’s the “hardcoe” roleplayers are a minority of all the gamers hence they will want to try and make something that is just enough complicated that the roleplayers enjoy it, and easy enough that the rest of the people can enjoy it also.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:00 pm

And for a lot of people, that is the problem. Essentially, when you begin Skyrim, your name is Bubba. You just magically appear in that cart. You have no previous skills or education. No past (and I'm sorry, but nothing you brew between your ears counts. -If the game does not recognize it, then your are not roleplaying in the game; you are playing Make Believe and using the game as a visual crutch- ). You have no way to =generate= a past that the game recognizes. Things like weapons usage, any of the skills, takes training. If you can do something, you must have had training in it (It's always fun watching some dork who thinks they are good with a knife pick up a bastard sword; they usually hit themselves or wrench an elbow or wrist bad enough for a cast). If you have zero training or knowledge, you shouldn't be able to use a procedure or device properly.

It's the part about YOU being the story and being free to develop the story in any way you want that is essentially one of the core aspects that TES designers have always regarded as the focus of the series. The story evolves around defining your character through your actions and development within the game, not by restraints such as "classes" or "proffessions" before the game. The designers, ever since Daggerfall, have always stressed that this is one of their visions with TES. If you don't share their vision, then you should probably look to another franchise to deliver what you desire.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:17 am

And for a lot of people, that is the problem. Essentially, when you begin Skyrim, your name is Bubba. You just magically appear in that cart. You have no previous skills or education. No past (and I'm sorry, but nothing you brew between your ears counts. -If the game does not recognize it, then your are not roleplaying in the game; you are playing Make Believe and using the game as a visual crutch- ). You have no way to =generate= a past that the game recognizes. Things like weapons usage, any of the skills, takes training. If you can do something, you must have had training in it (It's always fun watching some dork who thinks they are good with a knife pick up a bastard sword; they usually hit themselves or wrench an elbow or wrist bad enough for a cast). If you have zero training or knowledge, you shouldn't be able to use a procedure or device properly.

If it takes skill or education not to hit ourselves or wrench an elbow or wrist, and since we clearly never hit ourselves or wrench our elbows or wrists, the only logical conclusion is that we must have some training in our past. You somehow conclude the opposite.

You may not be able to =generate= a past that the game recognizes, but you can generate one. If you are using armor because your character happens to have a taste for armor, the game recognizes that he is wearing armor and adjusts for it, right down to the type of armor. Likewise, if you aren't wearing armor, or if you are casting spells, the game recognizes it and adjusts for it. It is not make believe.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:48 pm

If you are talking about TES back in the day then the answer was always:
"Yes, no sweat, since every character ends up maxed out in all attributes and necessary skills..."

I was actually referring to old (AD&D) crpgs, not to TES series, which has had this "problem" at least since Morrowind (I haven't played TES games older than that).

Of course the question shold never be if it is possible, but rather 'how' it is possible given the advantages and disadvantages my character possess? A good story always has a solution if you are creative and clever with how you use your character's abilities.

That would be the optimal situation, but next to impossible to implement I'm afraid - at least if you want to keep the game challenging for every possible character build.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:13 am

I have no misgivings regarding Skyrims linear plot lines, yes some of the quests do not give you many options but hey, don't do the same quests. My three characters are all completely different, a Wood Elf assassin with sneak up the a-hole, (quests:DB and Thieves guild) a Nord archer / hunter (quests:Companions and Stormcloaks) and my Khajiit mage, (quests:College of Winterhold, Radian town quests) All feel different to me, have different areas of expertise and in a fight, I honestly couldn't tell you which one I would favour, they'd all be using very different styles and techniques.

It's up to YOU to shape your gameplay in the world provided, if you find the system doens't allow you to do that, well...

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:35 pm

It's up to YOU to shape your gameplay in the world provided, if you find the system doens't allow you to do that, well...

Pretty much this.

Bethesda offers choices through your actions.
Companies like Bioware offer choices through dialogue trees.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:47 pm

I have no misgivings regarding Skyrims linear plot lines, yes some of the quests do not give you many options but hey, don't do the same quests. My three characters are all completely different, a Wood Elf assassin with sneak up the a-hole, (quests:DB and Thieves guild) a Nord archer / hunter (quests:Companions and Stormcloaks) and my Khajiit mage, (quests:College of Winterhold, Radian town quests) All feel different to me, have different areas of expertise and in a fight, I honestly couldn't tell you which one I would favour, they'd all be using very different styles and techniques.

It's up to YOU to shape your gameplay in the world provided, if you find the system doens't allow you to do that, well...

And thats fine, we all have imaginations, we all can make up our own stories in our heads if we want. my problem with skyrim is that you feel no more accomplished once you finished the MQ or finished any other questline that you do when you escape helgan. Hell i was more excited about the game when i was driving home with it in my car than i was actually playing out the fighters guild questline. I felt no sense of that word todd likes to call PRIDE. Atleast in Oblivion you had no idea you were gonna become the Champion of Cyrodil and get some kick ass Tiber Septim Armor. And it was actually cool that you had to wait two weeks to get the armor, so i was counting down the days in game to go pick it up. In skyrim they pretty much say your dragonborn, your going to kill this dragon named Alduin, and oh your reward are these lame shouts that makes you so "unique". Even tho you can go get fus ro dahed by the greybeards or Ulfric if you really want too. Okay im done ranting. Disclaimer: MY OPINION.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:04 am

And thats fine, we all have imaginations, we all can make up our own stories in our heads if we want. my problem with skyrim is that you feel no more accomplished once you finished the MQ or finished any other questline that you do when you escape helgan. Hell i was more excited about the game when i was driving home with it in my car than i was actually playing out the fighters guild questline. I felt no sense of that word todd likes to call PRIDE. Atleast in Oblivion you had no idea you were gonna become the Champion of Cyrodil and get some kick ass Tiber Septim Armor. And it was actually cool that you had to wait two weeks to get the armor, so i was counting down the days in game to go pick it up. In skyrim they pretty much say your dragonborn, your going to kill this dragon named Alduin, and oh your reward are these lame shouts that makes you so "unique". Even tho you can go get fus ro dahed by the greybeards or Ulfric if you really want too. Okay im done ranting. Disclaimer: MY OPINION.

They can tell me I am Dragonborn all they want, doesn't mean I am going to run around fighting giant flying lizards, I told the Greybeards and the Blades to both go do one on this alt, and that for me has made the game SO different, especially since I have hardly ANY shouts unlocked on this char, the ones I do have I do not use.

I think people are trying to somehow divert their feelings of dissapointment onto Bethesda when in fact, it's your own fault for "bigging" it up evcen further in your own mind, the only reason you're dissappointed is because you overhyped yourself. I was excited for Skyrim and I love playing it, if somethign in the game isn't to my liking, I ignore it or move on. There really is so little that I don't like about this game and I just don't get why you all want to hate on it, this is the place to talk about how we love it. Comparing it to the other games, I DO agree, Morrowind and Oblivion quests seemed longer, but I am pretty sure there are way more in Skyrim, though don't quote me on that.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:07 pm

Bethesda have never been very good at story writing, at least compared to other big game companies.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:52 pm

They can tell me I am Dragonborn all they want, doesn't mean I am going to run around fighting giant flying lizards, I told the Greybeards and the Blades to both go do one on this alt, and that for me has made the game SO different, especially since I have hardly ANY shouts unlocked on this char, the ones I do have I do not use.

I think people are trying to somehow divert their feelings of dissapointment onto Bethesda when in fact, it's your own fault for "bigging" it up evcen further in your own mind, the only reason you're dissappointed is because you overhyped yourself. I was excited for Skyrim and I love playing it, if somethign in the game isn't to my liking, I ignore it or move on. There really is so little that I don't like about this game and I just don't get why you all want to hate on it, this is the place to talk about how we love it. Comparing it to the other games, I DO agree, Morrowind and Oblivion quests seemed longer, but I am pretty sure there are way more in Skyrim, though don't quote me on that.

And i have avoided things i dont like in the game. I haven't even done the guild questlines over again since they are so meaningless. And i'd much rather have so many hand written quests, that have choices, consequences. Then have the quests in skyrim which have no meaning whatsoever. The quests in skyrim could've branched out so so much, but they just decided not too. Not to mention dumb radiant quests. God if the future of RPG's are in the hands of the Radiant Story system were in trouble. Give the quest writing to actual WRITERS. not some machine.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:00 am

Don't forget there is lots more to come, this game came out what... 15 weeks ago, updates and bug fixes are issued frequently, the developers and players alike want to see it grow and grow and have the same following as Morrowind and Oblivion.

The few and far between issues people gripe about on these forums really are trivial in my eyes, but again, that's just me

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:26 pm

there is absolutely nothing linear about skyrim. you do what you want. you want a linear game? go play skyward sword, that game is so linear that a hallway seems like more freedom, oh my gosh. i almost can't play it because of how linear it is. compared to ss, skyrim is 100% pure unadvlterated freedom..

No, no its not. For instance, join the civil war and go try to wipe out an enemy camp, however meaningless that may be to the game world. Just try it. At least for the stormcloaks, the general mentions dealing with any imperials you may find. You can't. Never ran the civil war quest again after that, even more pointless when you can't kill an enemy in wartime. I really could go on and on and on.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:26 am

That is absurd.

The thing is, TES is suppose to introduce you to a world, not a game.
And one can't beat a world!

Yeah.....you misunderstood me. Nothing wrong with them wanting to attract a bigger audience to make money since they are in business to make money not to cater to my needs. I just wish the masses liked deeper rpgs......like morrowind.....but they don't.

Well, that is the problem (not only with them, but with everybody); they do it for the money!
As soon as you start doing things solely because of the money, you are going to fail.