You don't get squat. I never said I hated the game and I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. By claiming that, you've clearly demonstrated that you do not get it. Criticizing the very reality that Skyrim does not present recognition for actions, does not truly present tools for impact on the gameworld, and does not deviate much from its general gameplay formula is not hating the game and trying to convince anyone otherwise and the solution to criticism is not to falsely look at it as evidence of pure hatred, but to address it, instead. You nor the slew of avoidance of what I was discussing from grimgryphon is not discussion, it's false misinterpretation and wrongful categorization followed by knee-jerk defense... without actually defending the issue at heart. It's all roses and sunshine when someone's making a claim of how the game is to be played, but countering a claim by bringing forth the reality of the situation that directly opposes validity of that claim is met with false generalizations and direct avoidance of the issue as well as a completely misdirected argument which has nothing to do with a word I've said nor the context in which I've said it. I did not say "Skyrim svcks, you're stupid if you think otherwise", I had a very real objection to a very real, false claim and a criticism of specific realities of Skyrim.

just reinstalled oblivion and decided to go through nehrim very fun give me a break from skyrim till mods are available

Below was your quote from an earlier post on this thread....so again it's your optnion Skyrim is nothing more then what you stated ....so I rest my case...btw what's your favorite color?

Skyrim is designed for nothing more than incessantly predictable dungeon-diving and item-fetching ad nauseum without choices or consequences.

Remove level scaling they said, make the game more static they said, it makes it much more challenging they've said...
Then you've either been playing the game wrong, or you haven't played Skyrim at all.

If you wander around for a few days (in game days) and then teleport to Riften, there is a fair chance you will have a dragon attack within the walls

You rest your case by continually avoiding to address what I've stated. Yes, Skyrim incessantly follows predictable (three primary dungeon types... Draugr Tomb, cave, Dwemer ruin - linear in structure, lead to boss, chance of word wall, passage directly back to exit) pattern of gameplay with quests that predictably lead you to said dungeons with a predictably fetch or kill-based objective with little choice and a lack of recognition or impact afterwards. That's Skyrim in a nutshell and that's what Skyrim is designed for. Have I said something false with that? Is that not the base gameplay routine? Why is stating the reality considered what you seem to think it is? Did I see dungeon-diving was bad? No, but it does get tiresome after a while and is certainly nothing revolutionary plus the lack of the recognition and choice part simply add to the tedium and question of "RPG elements... where are they so widely present as to make role-playing required?". I'm opposing the claims of the person I was quoting in Skyrim's function as an RPG by pointing out just how limited Skyrim's gameplay design and RPG mechanics truly are. It does not reward or change itself based on differing character styles, it does not promote outside of the box thinking and ideology, and it does not accommodate "role-playing" all that much. What it accommodates is a good dungeon romp and sandbox exploration.


Great. People say this, now tell me how I'm wrong.

a rather round about way of stating your point but effective non the less

Butterfiles, landscape, random encounters, cities, NPCs, books that contain hints for possible quests and artifacts, crafting, ingredients, puzzles, marriage...


But you know what, fine. It is a linear, dungeon-crawler, but then might as well admit that the it's just as true for the rest of the series, because they're hardly different in this regard...

You are not wrong at anything. You are simply stating your opinions on the game as others have done as well. btw, you stil haven't answered me, what's your favorite color?

Butterflies are butterflies, landscape is not an RPG mechanic, just pretty with some more killing and looting scattered across it and a backdrop for the dungeons, random encounters are scarce flavors to add to the exploration and looting base, NPCs aren't choices or any-such, either, and simply state simple one-liners or give you quests leading to more fetching and killing without choices or consequences, books that contain those lead to artifacts and quests which lead to more fetching and killing with little choice and consequence (except the lore books... those be fun reading and as I've always done since Daggerfall, collect them all I say... EVERY SINGLE ONE), crafting is basic tool to create more things to do more killing and fetching, ingredients make potions for more killing and fetching, puzzles also add flavor to the killing and fetching, and marriage does nothing, really.

The choices and consequences... where are these? The actual content outside of the killing and fetching areas are scarcely anything time-consuming or entertaining on their own and yes, that does go for most TES games. Have I said otherwise? Did you automatically assume that because I'm criticizing Skyrim I must be excluding the rest of the series? If so, that's a grave mistake that would very easily taint what I've said with a paint that simply is not there. What doesn't go for the other games, to differing degrees depending on game, is the magnitude to which Skyrim lacks feedback or even some form of character specialization recognized by the gameworld. Dungeon-diving, rogue-like style, has always been a focus of TES.

I'm not denying that nor claiming otherwise in that regard. Skyrim does, however, lack the reputation systems, the dispositions, the build-specific (at least, when older iterations had a decent amount of content, skill requirements, or exclusiveness with proper reputation of their own) factions, or really factions in general, and certain general pieces of meaningful character customization that past games have had, which have unfortunately diminished with each iteration whether one approves or not. Choice has never been as central as I would have liked, but there were also more choices in past TES games (take, for example, Daggerfall's main questline). In any case, my criticism of Skyrim was not meant to be a criticism of Skyrim and praise for past games, just a criticism of Skyrim. Whether it applies to Arena-Oblivion or not was not a focus of my disapproval. I'm not pretending past games had something completely different from Skyrim, but at the very least, they did have some reputation systems and faction... anything beyond the small handfuls of quests that don't care what type of character the player is Skyrim has labeled as factions. Skyrim's back to Arena's level in that area.

Blue, and an opinion is whether Skyrim's design is a good thing or not, not the factual base of Skyrim's design.

Many studios seem not to like creating [major] content that does not show up in the first play through (and they have reason), but this is the exact reason that I prefer those RPGs that do. I have been surprised by Fallout 2 even after 10 years of playing it; (not ten years straight of course. )

Does Skyrim have many locations that are not accessible except via specific quests [or stages of them], and/or that are inaccessible with certain faction alignments? Do any faction choices permanently sever ties with any other faction (before the endgame I mean).

*The only one I remember from Oblivion was the Dark Brotherhood sanctum; (I only ever found the door, never got inside ~which was as it should be for my PC).

Fallout 2 has an open map were you can venture anywhere in general, but certain locations are just not 'find-able' without exact directions ~but you can always go back once you know of it; (aside from something like a cave-in that blocks a place off).

I would like it very much to find new opportunities [and locations... even new allies, enemies and even new creatures in some instance] on a new play through that made different allegiances, or decisions at key moments during the campaign.

** Perhaps 'Radiant Story' (is that the name?), can be made to also select from user dungeons, caves, and overland locations that are only accessible after a user made quest makes them available to the PC.

Went to High Hrothgar at level 3, fought a spider and frost troll. Went there at level 41 on a different char, fought 4 frost trolls, 1 frost dragon, 2 snow bears and a snowy saber cat. Completely different enemies in the same place.

Meh, with oblivion anyway most of the mods were for improving visuals and aspects of gameplay. The quests from mods are usually meh at best.

I dunno... The modder userbase ~(those among them that create content with the tools more than just useful tinkering) are getting pretty sophisticated.
We might see some interesting stuff from them in Skyrim.

Who knows...


Thanks, you just illustrated what I meant by a lose-lose proposition. Have a nice day.

It took me 160 hours to see the smoke and mirrors. I would rate that 160 hours as some of the best in years, and I've now got bored before finishing the main quest or a few guild quest lines as I just can't muster excitement to do the same thing over and over anymore.

I suspect a few weeks break will be sufficient for me to come back fresh. Maybe you could take a break too op! I'm going back to dark souls, it's a very close call but souls wins goty for me now.....just because of the lack of depth to
Skyrim.

op- this game will basically be the same everytime because it lacks game changing actions/reactions; depth and sophistication.

fighting different enemies at the same place is not "different" for me. once you do all the guild quests the game is about roaming and fighting. that's it.

for you i would think a DiD, sub-optimal, and gimped character on master could be fun.

As a percentage of the number extant, I would call it a handful, as off the top of my head I can only think of 6-7 such. As to faction choices, no, there is no 'mutual opposition' effect nor any locations that are inacessible for joining a faction. There are some that are inaccessible if you don't join a particular faction, because they are quest-related, however those are part of the initial figure I gave.

Some of them are not accessible until you've gotten to the proper point in a quest, as even though you know where they are they do not spawn until then. The Mordinos' drug lab is one such, and I think Sierra Military Depot is as well. That said, most locations are accessible regardless.

That would be nice, but I'm not sure it's compatible with a preset game-world. There would have to be a mechanism in place to insure that a quest, when selecting a location from the list of eligible candidates, did not select one that the player had already entered, lest the quest break due to an item and/or NPC no longer being there. There would be a similar issue with the use of pre-placed notes or journals, since there would be no way to know ahead of time which location the player would be directed to.

I can think of a couple of ways to make it compatible, but any of them would be a massive amount of work they probably wouldn't want to undertake.

I just don't get the complaints that there's too much fighting & fetching in Skyrim. What on earth do you want? A soap opera?

Regarding choice: Yes, the guild quests (at least the ones I've done - Thieves' and College of Winterhold) seem like quick affairs, and I don't like how they railroad you into certain positions. It's a far cry better than Oblivion's guilds, which were entirely linear and mostly silly to boot. The radiant quests allow you to be a guild member and do your own side quests - making choices.

It would also be nice if there were more dialogue options, similar to what we saw in FO3.

But overall, there is a ton of fodder for roleplaying in Skyrim. Much more so than in vanilla Oblivion, thanks to radiant quests. I can finally play a bounty hunter. I can play a mage-scholar who scours texts for information about ancient artifacts and locations that I can actually find in-game. I can play a treasure-hunter who listens to rumors to get a tip on a big score. I can do all these things to a much greater degree than in Oblivion - and, thanks to radiant quests, even than Morrowind.

So yeah, there's a lot of "killing and fetching" in Skyrim. There is an awful lot of variety, too. But you generally need to step outside the major questlines and play *your* character to find it.

I get your point here...
Role Playing is for fun in an RPG and not to compensate for the games lack of options and bugs, etc.

jaberkatys-

the point many of us make is the huge difference between roleplaying a character and rpg elements within the mechanics of the game. beth does a great job of allowing us to use our minds to create a type of character and live in a great world. however, due to the lack of gaming aspects (i won't do a list at this time) that is the extent of it. from that point on it's all the same for every type of character you make and depends solely on your imagination. and, imo, that becomes boring and weak.

using our minds to roleplay should be an absolute given in an rpg. including it in a game is a necessary option, not, something to be thankful for. at least, not in 2012.

the complaints are due to the regression, lack of advancement, and complete exclusion of those rpg elements. those things that make you think and micromanage in a game. a game that develops around the character.

I once came out of a cave, heard a dragon roar, started looking around in the sky and had a fresh dragon corpse fall from the sky right in front of me.

I had no idea how it happened, then I heard another roar and saw another dragon flying overhead who didn't agro. Only one explaination for a dragon that's on my side, but I didnt call him. Maybe he still randomly flies around the world and is still on my side faction-wise even if I didn't call him?

Was a cool sight.

Hey you nitwit, get your facts right or don't post.

Also, I hope the OOO team is going to do something with Skyrim. The added code, dragons, radiant scripting, etc available to modders seems like it will be killer once their overhaul is in place.

You know whats wired? There are movable carts in the game and I see no one moving them.