I think resurrecting bodies with Magic to fight for you is e : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:18 pm

They do know what's happening, i.e. the ghosts at Rannveig's Fast. But I only resurrect ones that tried to kill me, and never permanently as my Dunmeri Ashlander doesn't know that spell. She doesn't do it to other Dunmer, either.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:23 pm

Yeah, that's what I first thought of when I read your original post.

You should be able to hear a lot of them say that at the Jurgen Windcaller quest. There's a few necromancers controlling bandits. Usually vampire thralls say it as well.

Another cool dungeon near whiterun is surrounded by ethereal ghosts.. all bandits and hunter types. They're not zombies, but there's a necromancer within the dungeon controlling them. When you get near the place, they try to warn you off, saying "Get away. I can't help it. I'm sorry!" and then they attack. When you kill them, they express the same relief as thralls.

I think i`ve seen that one, although that was in my previous game before 1.4. Now I thought that was just a special case at that time.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:20 pm

Don't you think the "thank you" could have been a glitch? I have never heard it before, you said you have heard it only once... has anyone else heard them talk post-reanimation?

It's no glitch. Nor is it tied to any one tomb, cave or dungeon. It is scripted int the Dead Thrall. They say "Thank you" and "At last". I am very familiar with their closing comments, because I am intentionally killing my own Dead Thralls all the time, for one reason or another.

Is is evil? Absolutely.
Is it morbid? No doubt.
Is it morally wrong? Definitely.
Is it sick ant twisted for someone to RP a character that indulges in such practices? Probably.
Will I continue to reanimate dead bodies? Without question.

No matter how you look at it. If it's...
"Good. They should react as such, because it adds a layer if 'Moo-Hoo-Hoo-Ha-Ha-Ha' to it." or if it's...
"Oh! That's horrible! I feel so sorry foe those poor and suffering souls."
It's still makes for deeper gameplay. I love it. And yes I am a sick and twisted individual. One that loves the morbid and macabre.

EDIT : Ah! They also say "Free... again"

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:55 am

This creates an ethical dilemma if you want to play a good person. I won`t use anything that creates zombies that`s for sure.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are getting at. Necromancy was pretty much frowned upon in previous games as well. I never thought that any character that was supposed to be good would have ever gotten close to tampering with the dead whether the zombie said thank you or not. It's pretty much evil at face value and the event you experienced, although a cool addition to the game, has no bearing on it. Though it does provide a nice RP value if you play a good character to hunt down necromancers and return their undead victims to their peaceful slumber.

That has never happened to me so thanks for sharing that. Hopefully, I can experience something like that as I continue to play.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:30 am

Using magic to bring bodies back is considered necromancy. Not that you didn't know this I am sure you did, but it is highly considered evil among many people. In fact in Oblivion it was even banned from the mage guild. I am not sure about winterhold college since I have yet to do that quest line but I am sure they look down upon the practice of necromancy as well. It is evil and anyone who says otherwise is just trying to justify their actions so they can feel better about themselves. How can you honestly disturb the dead, bring them back to life against their will, and then command them to do your bidding like they were a puppet. Not to mention that I believe in the actual TES world you have to preform dark arts to raise the dead. Not sure but you find so many altars with skeletons around them and it looks as if some pretty messed up stuff had been going on there.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:32 pm

This is a totally different world with a different idea of good/evil. Resurecting the dead just isn't happening in the real world, so you can't compare our morality to theirs. Death in TES isn't the same as a real world death. Bandits die all the time and are simply replaced by new bandits. Characters die and are simply brought back for another chance. Stuff like that has to result in differing views on mortality.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:57 am

This is a totally different world with a different idea of good/evil. Resurecting the dead just isn't happening in the real world, so you can't compare our morality to theirs. Death in TES isn't the same as a real world death. Bandits die all the time and are simply replaced by new bandits. Characters die and are simply brought back for another chance. Stuff like that has to result in differing views on mortality.

But it is stated in past TES games that Necromancy is indeed evil. So even in this world it is highly looked down upon and banned from practice in many mage guilds. Also the idea that bandits die and they are replaced is suppose to simulate new bandits moving in and taking over. Not the old ones returning from the dead for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, or how ever many times you kill them, try.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:59 pm

I always thought of it as placing your own magic energy inside a body joust to create motion. Sort of like when they try to use the defibrillators ( shocks pads used to jump start a heart for those who do not know what they're actually called :tongue:

) on someone who is dead, though, without them actually coming back to life. Basically when the electricity enters the body and causes muscle twitches, the body moves without the person being alive. This is what I viewed necromancy as. But if they have awareness or some state of feeling then it truly is evil. Though I still think my previous way of viewing it was evil, as you're desicrating a body.

Yeah, humans work with electricity after all. Reanimation temporarily powers the body back up so it can act according to the mages wishes. However as the soul trap spell demonstrates the soul, whatever that is, departs at the moment of death. Whatever the body might say is just a product of the resurrected brains. It is desecration of the copse, but not torture.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:24 am

However as the soul trap spell demonstrates the soul, whatever that is, departs at the moment of death. Whatever the body might say is just a product of the resurrected brains. It is desecration of the copse, but not torture.

Fun little fact about Soul Trap: you can kill something, use raise zombie on it and then use Soul Trap and it will fill a gem in your inventory. I did this with the dog in Riverwood just out of curiosity.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:29 pm

I agree that corpse reanimation (as well as soul trapping) is "evil", and that's exactly the interpretation that I love, because it gives my characters layers and shades of grey, instead of just being black and white.

For example - my character is, for all intents and purposes, "good". He doesn't murder, he doesn't steal, he obeys the law, and makes decisions that would be considered "moral", or "just".

However, his abilities include Necromancy and Soul Trapping - it gives him layers, because he is a good person, who dabbles in "evil" arts. He uses those abilities for the "greater good", but there still is the moral grey area of whether what he is doing can truly be justified or not.

In order to do good, he must acquire power, and in order to acquire power, he must steal souls to fuel his abilities, and manipulate the undead. So in order to do good, he must do something that is considered "evil". And then he must struggle with not becoming corrupted by these dark powers, and abusing them for selfish gains.

There are many schools of moral thought that would say someone who commits evil acts in the name of "the greater good" is the definition of evil. I mean, no one in history has ever thought they were acting in an evil way. Every villain believes they're acting for the greater good.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:24 am

lol.. the fact that you did it on that dog is more disturbing than anything about soul traps. i mean, it's that little kid's dog. damn... haha

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:30 pm

There are many schools of moral thought that would say someone who commits evil acts in the name of "the greater good" is the definition of evil. I mean, no one in history has ever thought they were acting in an evil way. Every villain believes they're acting for the greater good.

I've been watching Star Trek DS9 lately. This above is what makes Gul Dukat one of the best villains I've ever seen in a show.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:53 pm

This suggests that the body still has its spirit in there and is aware of what is happening and does not like it. Maybe it resides in the dead body a while or maybe the magic spell pulls the spirit back in to animate it, whatever, the body is aware of what`s happening.

A body doesn't need to have a spirit to animate, it is simply a biological machine. The brain may work and process information even when the soul is long gone. So it is the soulless machine that says thank you, not the soul.

Think about it this way, you soul trap someone, kill them and their soul goes into your Black Soul Gem, you then raise their body and kill it, and it say thank you. It couldn't of been the soul that said thank you because it resides in your Black Soul Gem.

Another example would be Draugr, there is a Draugr for King Olaf One-Eye but at the same time a human version of him (his soul) in Sovngarde.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:40 am

Fun little fact about Soul Trap: you can kill something, use raise zombie on it and then use Soul Trap and it will fill a gem in your inventory. I did this with the dog in Riverwood just out of curiosity.

Well, that is either an oversight, or Soul Trap doesn't trap a soul, but life energy from the dying creature.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:14 am

It took you guys 3 months to hear this? I heard things like this hundreds of times as I killed reanimated npc's.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:38 am

Yeah, the looting of tombs actually is one of those I question too (I still do it though. But I guess I could play a character that doesn't. Not a big loss anyways... I think).

Are you kidding me? When the buggers jump out of walls and attack you? I go out of my way to disrespect them; I raise them AFTER killing them to fight for me!

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:26 am

Completely on your side Blade watcher, though for a different reason.

The creation of undead or animation of corpses is objectively defined as an evil act in the Dungeons and Dragons supplement, Book of Vile Darkness.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 am

Necromancy might be evil?

You think?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:38 pm

They're essentially just zombies. That's what a 'Thrall' is. I don't see it as evil, the spirit already left the body.

To create that zombie, you use conjuring. Why? Because you bring back the person's spirit, using the body as a link, and bind it to the (dead, quite likely in pain) body, bound to your control by the ritual of conjuring.

How is that NOT evil?

Ah, you say, but is it the same spirit, or is it maybe some other spirit animating the body? I mean, what if you trapped the spirit in a black soul gem when the person was killed?
Well, the thrall has the same stats and skills, so it's pretty much got the same mind, right? Or at least a mind with all the same capacities for thought (a clone, if you will) that is bound under your magical control. Is cloning a personality and making that clone a slave any less evil? No. So what spirit it is in the body is actually irrelevant.
As for the soul gem, who's to say a person has only one soul? The Egyptians believed we had several souls, one of which was the mind, one the force animating the body, one the magical energy, etc. Could be Black gems capture one of the souls, and necromantic conjouring enslaves one of the others.

Still evil.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:15 am

its not evil, since it only lasts a little bit, but its definitely a real dike move

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:18 am

Such threads always confuse me until I realize people are trying to play goodie-two-shoes characters, something which doesn't really fit the Tamriel universe. Of course reanimating the dead is morally questionable. So is summoning a daedra from Oblivion to fight and die for you. Heroes in Tamriel use power and mow other people over in the pursuit of their goals. The only way they are morally better than other powerful figures is a matter of slight degrees of grey.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:25 pm

I`ve `killed` lots of undead, but for the first time ever I killed someone bought to life by an evil mage and as it died it said `Thankyou.`

Never heard that before in all my time playing.

It also makes me think (yes, that again) that people raised from the dead by magic are actually somewhat aware of what is happening to them and do not like it. They maybe in agony or in some kind of mental anguish as they are forcefully paraded around like a string puppet.

So using magic to bring bodies up from the dead to fight for you is actually EVIL.

Thoughts?

p.s. Just a reminder that this is a game.

Sounds like a great side-effect of having a Thrall. I mean, I get to raise the dead, have an awesome bodyguard following me everywhere AND it causes the recipient a constant, gut-wrenching pain? Where do I sign up?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:25 am

I think the word "evil" should be banned it is so freaking subjective.

It is not the power that you have, but how you use that power that matters.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Reanimation is different to Necromancy for one reason... reanimation merely uses the shell of the body. In TES Universe the soul is the person; without the soul the body is empty flesh, it cannot feel or think. Reanimation is merely using the empty shell to follow the player and strike at others, there is nothing of the original NPC in there. Necromancy would be evil as the actual soul (thus the person with it) are bound with their corpse once again and must follow their masters commands.

Yeah, but "Necromancy" as defined above is pretty clearly what happens in TES games. Creating a zombie or thrall is Conjuration magic, not Restoration (which would restore life processes) or Alteration (which can animate non-living objects).

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:39 pm

"I think resurrecting bodies with Magic to fight for you is evil."

Thanks for sharing your opinion.