I found these two books, one a Nordic opinion on Dunmer living in Skyrim and another Dunmer living in the Gray quarter.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

Of the two the Dunmer writer came off rather.... arrogant while the Nord sounded fed up with the situation. Otherwise it makes the Dark elves living in Windhelm to be deserving of the mistrust.

This is part of a post I made in another thread but it seems it would add to the discussion here

Do we know the actual number of Imperial Legions? Because with 3 legions destroyed and assuming they are built like Roman legions that's a confirmed 15,000 dead Imperial soldiers. I'm guessing there was probably 10 or 12 legions before the war and with that, that's around 37,500 dead Imperial soldiers. This is also without the Imperial and Redguard civilian deaths. So about as many Imperial soldiers died in this war as some countries had in the second world war. Sadly we don't have population of the Provinces to see how devastating this was. I wonder how large the two Dominion armies were, so we could get a proper head count on their dead.

As cold as this is about to sound I think the Humans could afford this more easily than the Elves could. A lot more people would of died before this war ended but in the long term the Humans would of out lasted the Dominion. Two of the Imperial Provinces were willing to pay this price, Skyrim and Hammerfell. The two martial nations in the Empire were willing to continue the war and yet the Empire let one go and is about to lose the second.

The future of Tamriel is going to become interesting if the Empire falls

Also there is no evidence to suggest the Dominion uses the Bosmer or Khajiit as anything more than servants.

But someone can use the Dunmer of Skyrim book in two ways. 1. Look, the Dunmers are evil. 2. Look, someone wrote a book and pretended to be a Dunmer in order to make Dunmers look evil.
Just like Bear of Markarth is written by an Imperial - so the whole books focuses on Ulfric being monster and Empire being saviours. The Great War is written by a soldier who fought in the war - so he might not feel like concluding that he fought for nothing. What is missing is more than one book saying the same thing (books from different authors, that is).

Elsweyr is a puppet state. They aren't actively aiding the thalmor, and aren't hindering them either.

The empire lost a lot of legionnaires due to Mede letting the situation get out of control. The thalmor attack force is gone. They should be calling in from other nations(Why didn't he have some of daggerfall's legions recalled?) He's not good for the empire.(But that issue resolved itself I hear, unless he has an heir.)

That's being a little to paranoid my friend. That's a Dunmer name and having played Morrowind. Only a Dunmer born in Morrowind could have that attitude and out look of the Nords. I highly doubt anyone but a Dark elf wrote that piece of trash

While they be a puppet state they are still part of the Dominion. Without Mede the Empire could have lost much more then they did. He was the one that drew up the plans for the Battle of the Red Ring which destroyed the Dominion army in Cyrodii and he captured Lord Naarifin who was the one who lead the intial attack into Cyrodiil. High Rock did send legions to help they reinforced the Hammerfell legion that was later recalled back into Cyrodiil.

They aren't a force that needs to be dealt with though. Heck even the bosmer aren't involved much.

Mede's the reason the aldmeri grew as powerful as they were though. He lead a coup de grace after the crisis and then set about making things better for himself instead of addressing the concerns of the other provinces. Valenwood was being overtaken by the thalmor and he did nothing. The argonians wiped out most of mainland morrowind, and again he did nothing. Mede didn't have foresight. You don't let potential threats grow until they become actual threats. The thalmor caught him playing at emperor. Something he didn't take seriously enough.

Looks like I missed High Rock sending reinforcements, but apparently he didn't think that force would have been helpful when he signed the concordat.

Are you talking the Titus Mede who founded the Mede Empire or the current emperor Titus Mede II? If you're talking about the first one then I really have no idea about him since I haven't read The Infernal City. Now if you're talking about Titus Mede II then he only took control of the Empire after all that happened. All the legions from each nation under the Empire was there at the Battle of The Red Ring. The nord legion under General Jonna, the Imperial legion was led by the Emperor, and the Hammerfell/High Rock legion was lead by General Decianus so all the nations are represented and fought before the treaty was signed.

Titus Mede I should have nipped it in the bud when it cropped up. Titus Mede II continued to ignore the growing problem during his reign.

So you're saying that you're against the freedom of religion?


So are you saying you're against the freedom of religion?

IEither you people are ok with Thalmor and Forsworn religions or you're against freedom of religion. You can't use a set of criteria you personally like, pick and choose which religions should be allowed, and then say "freedom of religion".


And that's the bottomline of this thread.

I may join the Stormcloak for the Thalmor have issued an executive order against my character. She is a wanted woman by the Dark Brotherhood and the Thalmor. She is a not a devout follower of Talos, and could care less about religion.

Titus Mede II became the Emperor in 4E 168 when the Doiminon was already at its height of its power. He only had 3 years on the throne before the Great War which began in 4E 171. Also the Empire's military was also very weak and underprepared during the early stages of the war. However after the Great War and the treaty was signed, the Empire and the Dominion have been rebuilding up their forces for another confrontation.

Now that I have played through The Stormcloaks on my Main I regret it. Skyrim is worse off with the stormcloaks in charge. I really wish both sides could team up and just murder off The Thalmor and unite again as The Empire.

And yet he made no preparations. 3 years to reorganize and he left things at status quo. Mede had been sitting on his butt hoping the elves wouldn't do anything and just stay off in their own little corner of tamriel. I could see this partially being the fault of his advisors(Seriously why is the military so weak if it's been so fricken long since the umbriel issue?) Mannish races tend to reproduce a good deal more than the altmer. I doubt there was any shortage of able bodied people to join the legion, but you need to actually recruit. Heck a conscription would have been acceptable to most nations I'd think after the war started.

Or perhaps 3. This is the attitude of one Dunmer, and not representative of all Dunmer.

The exercise of any freedom is limited by the ways in which it infringes upon the freedoms of other people. Genocide and human sacrifice do that in pretty obvious ways.

I feel really Sorry For him ...He has proved Himself So many times But people still dislike him....

(Citation needed.)

No, seriously, here's what The Great War says about 4E 168-171:


So we have three years of him "consolidating" the mess he inherited. If you've got a source which shows him scratching his nads for three years instead, I'd like to see it.

To be honest we don't actually have anything on what he did during that time, only that things stayed the same until the war started. Consolidating rule doesn't mean he did anything. We do know of the state of the empire 3 years after he took the throne. The military remained weak during those 3 years. No attempts at diplomacy to any surrounding provinces. The Medes didn't get involved in anything outside Cyrodiil until the great war. Over 100 years of provinces seceding, one of them obviously preparing a large army(Even people in Oblivion's time, 200 years before, knew they were training goblins for war). The thalmor motive was already understood a long time ago. You inherit an empire with a weak army and a strong neighbor that hates your guts and you don't put out notice for more recruitments? You don't send emissaries to elsweyr or argonia to renew relations with them. You don't take heed of the investigations of your blades. You sit and wait. And hey when you get a good bargaining chip(Lord Naarifin), you surrender unconditionally. No attempts to negotiate the terms. No thoughts about the consequences of what you just did.

Titus II's only notable action was the battle of Red Ring.(And possibly obtaining goldbrand) That's it. He's the heir of a dying empire thats forgotten what it is.

It's a bit of an ask to expect Titus II to reverse over 150 years of decay in three years, and we don't even know what he did or did not attempt in that time. Do you know if Titus II sent emissaries? Do you know if Titus II heeded his blades? What his forebears did is completely irrelevant to what share of responsibility he himself must take. We don't know what he attempted, because we haven't been told. Even if we assume that, for instance, he did not seek to increase the number of active Legions or Legionnaries, it's not as simple a matter as that. Soldiers need to be trained, fed, paid, housed and led. Most modern countries can't significantly increase the size of their military, from planning to realisation, within three years, and we have significantly more advanced logistical technologies at our disposal.

It's also a stretch to call an unfavourable treaty an "unconditional surrender". The Empire remained a sovereign state and avoided military occupation by the Dominion. That's hardly a surrender. Yes, the terms svck pretty badly and yes, I believe Titus II could and should have levered the successes he had into better terms. I'm not arguing that fact. The Empire needed peace, however, if it were to have any chance of facing down the Thalmor in future.

Yes, it is.

Sure it is. If a country has only one law (Freedom of Religion), then anything goes.

That's why you make other laws.

The real question is, does worshiping Daedra, praying to them and hanging out by their altars, hurt anyone? The answer is no.

Does murdering people hurt anyone? Yes. Do some Daedra worshipers murder people? Certainly. Most actually don't.

If the Nords want to preach religious freedom but not have murder, then they should outlaw murder. Outlawing certain religions while screaming for religious freedom makes them hypocrites.

Besides Red Ring, can you point me to any good thing Mede II has done? I don't consider the concordat a good thing because the entire thalmor assault force was wiped out. They were weakened sure, but the thalmor most certainly didn't have the resources to continue the attack.


Lets see...the empire gives up land, bans talos(The mythical figure partly responsible for the world remaining stable and not full of a giant dragon eating everything), bans the blades, accepts thalmor justicars into its territories to enforce thalmor law. The thalmor cede nothing. That is pretty much the definition of surrendering.

I think the issue is Daedra worship feeding into criminality. To open a massive can of worms, let's use a real world example. Use of hard narcotics does not, in and of itself, harm others. However, it is perceived as being linked with criminality, both due to making stupid (criminal) ideas seem awesome, because of the lengths some people go to in order to sate additions, and because of the role of drug sales in organised crime. So while Daedra worship itself may not be "wrong", it might be seen as enabling criminality, and thus outlawed.

EDIT: The Justicars weren't allowed in until Ulfric began openly violating the Concordat - which, as it happens, is what the Thalmor are enforcing. Not Thalmor law, but the treaty between the Empire and Dominion. Although I consider the Concordat a treaty rather than a surrender, I suppose it could well be argued as such. That said, it would still be considered a "surrender at terms", rather than an unconditional surrender, as you initially suggested.

The casualties for the EVERY SINGLE LEGION (aka almost the entire army of all the human races).. including the Nords of Skyrim.. was greater than 50%. Their homeland was devastated, entire towns razed, etc. They have no reinforcements. Morale is incredibly low.

The Thalmor's homelands are completely untouched - they have reinforcements ready. They can even build up even more reinforcements faster, and have much more supplies, due to a pristine homeland. They only lost the one army. They have plenty more. Ultimately, though while the terms of the treaty were really harsh, there was no way in hell that they would be able to invade the completely untouched, highly motivated defenders of the Thalmor lands, when most of them are already on the brink of death. There's nothing else they could have done, unless they just refused the treaty and died in round two.

The "Dunmer want special treatment" thing is crazy - because the race is a little be arrogant that means they deserve to live in slums, have no protection from the guards, be regularly assaultd and harassed by citizens, have merchants deliberately ignored by guards so they can be robbed by bandits, and be unwelcome in the rest of the city? Did you actually talk to the Dunmer? Most are melancholy and depressed, not arrogant snobs. Did you check the docks outside, where the argonians are only allowed to live in a shack and aren't allowed to enter the city or gain jobs within the city? Did you talk to the Nord war veteran who tried to talk to Ulfric about helping smooth some of the racial tensions, but was pretty much given the middle finger and ignored?

Everyoen acts as if the Legion is incompetent, yet the Legion had already won the war when the game started - the stormcloaks just got lucky and got a second chance. The only way the stormcloaks win is if a Dragonborn backs them - that doesn't make me very confident on their ability to take on the Thalmor, who has already BEATEN THE CRAP OUT OF SKYRIM'S ARMIES.. when skyrim had High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Hammerfall on their side too!

Hell, even the battle that finally kicked the Thalmor out of Cyrodiil was with Mede leading, and was a part of Mede's overall plan - people keep trying to portray as if he just was losing and the nords came in like superheroes and saved the day. The history books pretty clearly state he pulled out of the Imperial City when it would have been an inevitable defeat to save his forces, then gathered all his troops and attacked all at once.

One law temporarily banning a god under duress that will be repealed as soon as possible is no 'betrayal' compared to betraying the rest of humanity that's trying desperately to stay united in the face of a greater threat.

What do you think will happen to the Empire without Skyrim. You might say "good riddance" to them, because they were WEAK AND SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT TO THE DEATH LIKE MANLY VIKINGS, but that's an idiotic plan anyway. Ultimately, though, skyrim is only 1/4th of humanity, and by seceding, they're pretty much giving them the middle finger and leaving them to their fate. If four provinces together lose against the skyrim, provinces that are invaded one at a time will surely lose.

Do you know what an opinion is?

Everytime I voice my opinion on the matter at this site, yes, I get called A LOT of things. And wrong was one of them.