Srsly who cares this pathetic "liberalism and freedom of religion all the waaay!" ?!? PRAISE TALOS and the Nine, or die! [censored] to the hell with every other religions! Forsworn, really? They live with hagravens, practice necromancy and foul magick as their traditional religion. And now I should feel sorry for them? Ahahaha. I helped the oldman and his friends to escape from Markarth prison and take revenge because they were jailed due to corrupt accusations. But they are still my favourite hunting game

This person likes sharing his/her thoughts on other people. This person also likes to label Skysky without replying to the content of Skysky's posts.

On the other hand, if you're anti thalmor then I suppose standing up for your homeland and way of life would be a pro-choice. Have we forgotten how racist the dunmer natives are? Perhaps not as xenophobic as the Nords to say the least.
Also, in the past games I never really liked the Imperials. Being against my thievery and all...
I was going to make a mischievous argonian join their cause on a new file, but they absolutely hate argonians. They're not even allowed in Whiterun. After finishing the Imperial side, they cannot enter for their own protection.
Well, [censored]. I can't think of any character that would gladly join the storm cloaks unless you're a Nord, of course. I'm trying to come up with a good race to join. I was also thinking that the dunmer would consider Skyrim their new home, but they hate all of them above other races. Perhaps a Redguard?

[SPOILER ALERT]
















Doing the Dark Brotherhood quests before taking part in the civil war kind of makes it all redundant, and probably makes you Stormcloak by default. >_>

People who argue that the Empire banned the worship of Talos because they are not open-minded, did they even read the lore in-game? The Empire only banned the worship of Talos because the peace treaty (White-Gold Concordat) with the Thalmor forced them to. In a way this is like Germany having to concede some of their sovereignty after they lost the First World War. In war, the winner dictates the terms of peace, not the losers. In TES lore, the Thalmor caught the Empire by surprise in their declaration of war at the start of the Great War and although the Empire fought them to a standstill, the Empire depleted its forces while the Thalmor were regrouping after the loss of their main army in the imperial city. The Empire isn't intolerable, its more they are forced to abide by the terms of the WGC. Even General Tullius is against the prosecution of Talos worship, but he enforces it because its his duty to do so. IMO, Tullius is more a patriot than Ulfric, in that the Nation comes first before personal beliefs.

Personally I support the Empire, because they are, in a way similar to Rome, the centre of civilization in Tamriel and the Stormcloaks resemble the various Celtic tribes that arose in rebellion throughout Roman occupation. The whole Thalmor interference is similar to Caesar's strategy of divide and conquer in his conquest of Gaul, fragmenting the numerous attempts the various Gaul Tribes tried to unite and counter the Roman expansion, the notion of united we stand, divided we fall. Thats the main reason I always join the Imperials in my playthroughs except the first one, where I went Stormcloaks just to get it out of the way =)

Stormcloak victory is a hit against Thalmor. Sure it splits the empire up even more, but the Thalmor were driven out of hammerfell by just the redguards. Now the Thalmor have to worry about Nord assaults too. While the empire plays its waiting game, Summerset is also regaining its power. The thalmor really didn't want either side to win. A united front on either end would be bad news for them.

People that say all stormcloaks are racist haven't really payed attention either. Windhelm has a high elf shopkeeper who gets along with the stormcloaks just fine. Most of the Dunmer came there expecting special treatment.(Even another dunmer in the city points this out) Nords don't give special treatment to anyone, you earn it. Any of the distrust of the elves in winterhold comes from the great collapse. Superstitious people blaming the mages for the disaster. I can guarantee you, that in a situation like that, it doesn't matter where in tamriel it happened, people would be distrustful of a group of people right in the middle of a disaster that are unaffected. Even then, one of the nords there remarks that he knows it wasn't their fault and still is friends with the arch mage. Riften has argonian shopkeepers and inn hosts, dark elf shopkeepers(Blacksmith apprentice is an elf too). Saying your country should be governed by your countrymen isn't racist. I wouldn't expect spain to agree to russia coming in and saying, "Hey here's your new laws".

Stormcloaks weakness comes in its leader. Ulfric is not fit to be high king. The man is mentally unstable. Think of him like Picard in Star Trek: First Contact. The Thalmor's defeat is the only goal he lives for, and he wants to achieve it at any cost. This can cause some serious blind spots in judgement.

Personally I want to see the Stormcloaks succeed, but someone assassinate Ulfric.

Talos Cult has always been a den of violent extremists and radicals. Nothing new. In Morrowind the Talos Cult was plotting to assassinate Uriel Spetim VII, before the Nerevarine stopped them.

Good riddance I say.

Gamewise, would not share breathing space.
I would gain this space on my own and that is exactly what i do when i cross Emperial/Stormcloak/thalmor patrols ... no witness, ever, not even the prisonner since anyway he is on the other side (too bad legates/generals are unkillable in camps or all camps would be clear since long)
To bad also you can't keep the jagged crown for yourself and chose the "3rd choice" (or 4th since Thalmor would be 3rd) like we can in many RPGs.

Way to go Bethesda! You got people going at it over Stormcloaks vs Imperials like was dem vs rep.

You don't get this kind of passion on Madden.

From a local perspective, travelling through Skyrim is littered with Nords in chains being pulled by Imperial soldiers and public executions of people in towns. The towns both Empire and Stormcloak supporting are fairly Neapolitan considering the harsh climate although it's fair to say generally Nords are cynical and . I also hear plenty of stories of lost family members of Nords who died defending the Empire only to have their sacrifice rewarded with restrictions on their way of life. The only good that the Empire brings is increased trade. It's also worth a mention that Ulfric had done nothing that breaks Nord law.

From a global perspective, the Thalmor are picking the Empire apart by subterfuge forcing it to subjugate it's provinces. They are probing for weakness and the Empire is capitulating. Unity against the Thalmor is required however the only way Skyrim will achieve this is through independence as the Empire is focusing it's efforts fulfilling the requests of the Thalmor.

If the Empire kills the Stormcloaks, it goes back to square one of persecuting Nords at the Thalmor's request until the next rebellion.

Ehhh...they both svck.

I went Stormcloak because the imperials tried to cut my head off.

Also in many RPGs, you don't even get to choose a side.

If you read the book "The Great War" the Empire's legions fought off a massive push into Hammerfell, saving them from falling in one fell swoop - after wiping out a large portion of (but not all) that army, they were recalle to Cyrodiil to defend the capital. Hammerfell, angry at this, took this as a reason to secede. However, before the legion seceded, the general declared a very large portion of the most skilled veterans in his army, and the majority of the redguard 'invalids' so that they were discharged from the legion and could legitimately stay in Hammerfell and defend it. The book mentions that this portion of the army left behind is what was central in allowing the Hammerfell to fight the Thalmor to a stalemate. Even this army only fought the Thalmor to a stalemate after the Thalmor had their /entire main army completely decimated in Cyrodiil. So the rebellion in Hammerfall was fighting a muc hsmaller, weakened force, with the veterans left behind by the legion, by waging guerrilla warfare, and it still took five years and left the southern half of Hammerfell completely devastated and in ruins. Hammerfell did not manage to have some easy, overwhelming victory against the Thalmor in any sense.

Part of the problem with the stormcloaks is they don't consider non-Nords to be 'countrymen'. There's plenty of non-Nords that have had families there for generations, and even the dunmer have been coming for decades, if not hundreds of years (Not sure on the exact date of the volcanic eruption, but it wasn't recent). Using the one rich, influential Altmer that has kissed the right asses and paid the right cash to the right people doesn't mean much. You're pretty much blaming the poor for being poor. These Dunmer often came with nothing but the clothes on their back - it was a literal apocalypse in Morrowind. Now, they're being refused jobs, harassed in the street, and occasionally killed,.

Plus, not all Nords are Stormcloaks, and possibly not even the majority are. The Nords founded the empire, and if you ask the nords who support it, they think the Nords should be more than fairweather friends - they have been with the empire since day one, and staunch allies. What kind of ally are they to backstab and betray their ally, comrade, and ruler (they worship Emperor Talos, after all) at his moment of greatest need?

Plus, I'm not personally all too thrilled with Ulfric's chances at victory, remember, everyone? ULFRIC ALREADY LOST THE WAR WHEN THE GAME STARTED - they had him captured. Tullius was such an excellent general that he swooped in and captured the main leader in almost no time at all. If a dragon hadn't shown up, it would have been the shortest rebellion ever.

It's a school example of logic. Just because you can add new premises or remove the existing ones, doesn't make it any less logic. I am not here to teach logic. If you don't get it, that's fine.



Says who? I mean, really, who says what "freedom of religion" should include? What's the criteria? Not hurting anyone? Do you know how many religions would today exist in real world if you would to use that criteria? I can tell you right now that no Semitic religion would pass your criteria.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Orwellian "all religions are equal but some are more equal than others". Or in short: hypocrisy.


Your last line is especially interesting and I can reply with the same: If Nords didn't worship Talos in public, Thalmor would leave them alone. Did worshipping Talos in private hurt any Nord? No.

So Nords come and invade Forsworn land, take their country, and then tell them how they can practice their religion? May I ask how many Nords were sacrificed by Forsworn before they invaded them?
And once Nords settled here, what if Forsworn only sacrificed their own people? What if village decides each year whom to sacrifice from the Forsworn of that village? Internal matter.

I'll even go further and ask this: when a country drafts you into military without your consent, and threatens with shooting you if you desert, what's the difference with that and the same country/tribe sacrificing his own? A chance to live? Exactly. Human sacrifice still exists today, except it's legalized and it's called "draft". Draft is sacrificial lottery, there are "Chosen ones" and then some of these are "sacrificed".


The world isn't a fairytale. 90% of the population of USA that thinks human sacrifice is bad, would be *for* human sacrifice if they were born 1000yrs ago as Aztecs. They would take for granted that it's good, much like they now take for granted that it's bad.
I'm sure this all sounds so outrageous that I'm going to be instantly attacked as supporter of human sacrifice and "how can I say it's the same" etc etc. Well that's how it is, like it or not.


So I'll ask again, who decides what should freedom of religion include? I can tell you why I don't like the cult of Talos, and why I would forbid it. I would have a valid reasons but I wouldn't claim at the same time that I'm for freedom of religion. That would be hypocrisy. I would claim that I only allow those religions that pass certain criteria.
Forsworn religion didn't pass Nord criteria. And Nord religion didn't pass Thalmor criteria. That's that.

Hah Told all of you guys that the Stormcloaks Werent gonna be all "Noble Freedom fighters" But NO you guys did not listen!

Except the storm cloaks religion doesn't include human sacrifice or deadra worship.

Thalmor Justiciar: Except that Thalmor religion doesn't include Talos worship.



(There, justification for banning Talos, using the same logic.)

I love logic because it makes silly "arguments" look silly real fast.

Thalmor religion involves destroying the world and killing every last man.

Your version of logic makes your arguments look silly. You use false premises. Your method is at its very best quasi-syllogism. Aristotle would turn over in his grave if he saw what you call logic.

No it is not. In your example you used a false premise. By doing so you ensure that your conclusion is false.

Comparing the viewpoints of the Thalmor on the worship of Talos, which causes no harm to any of the individuals involved in it, to the Forsworn who's religious practices present a clear danger to anyone within the Reach including their own practitioners is laughable. The point I was trying to make was the religion of the Reach seems to be one of violence. When have priests sacrificed individuals to Talos or any other of the Divine?

I love logic, but it's sad when individuals use false logic as a screen in a debate.

I could be mistaken here, but doesn't Ulfric already know that the Thalmor are the ones shoving the Empires noses in their own ****? Ulfric has done some... frowned upon things, but if it's the Thalmor being the real threat, why not take Ulfric a little more seriously after he kills the High-King, and acknowledge his possible assistance against the Thalmor? Then after the Thalmor are taken care of, discuss a possible treaty with the Empire, allowing the Nords and their High King to reclaim control of Skyrim pending a peace treaty with the Empire? I mean that's the way I look at it. Who knows if it would actually go down like that tho. However, to my understanding of Ulfric, he was pretty sympathetic at times. If he was promised the Empire would allow him to reclaim Skyrim after the Thalmor are dealt with. I don't see him saying no.

Once you have a rebellion, it's difficult to squash all these "freedom raiders" and calm everything down without taking lives. You're going to upset someone in that process. I mean this is all hypothetical of course. We're "debating" politics and shtuff right? I'm also talking from a less lore rich environment than most of you. It seems you all have a way better grasp of the story. I did however finish the Stormcloak campaign. I particularly like Ulfric's chat with his right hand man, when you first enter the Windhelm keep.

Oh, and stating the Forsworn religion, being justified by the "freedom of religion" is understandable, just not logical. Third world countries who might sacrifice their second born child to their "gods" wouldn't exactly be considered moral to life. There has to be some underlining definition that declares a "religion" as being beneficial and moral to life. I'm sure it goes without saying Ulfric's stance on freedom of religion is the practice of religion that is considered moral to life. I've walked in on 2 Hagravens shoving a Briar heart into the chest of a forsworn. Also from what I know, the Hagravens and forsworn don't discriminate from nord or non-Nord. They just kill anything that isn't part of their little cult. That's like the little suicide cults you've heard about in the media over the years.

Sure, it's difficult for me to choose sides but I always tell myself that the Stormcloaks are where I belong. It's all apples and oranges really. I understand the Empire was forced into a treaty. I also understand that then Empire doesn't have the numbers to defend itself from the Thalmor. Most, I believe, also have to understand that your common rabble of citizens, AREN'T going to understand that. To your peasants and farmers walking around, it's all here-say, and strong ignorant opinions (NPC of course). Ulfric may not be making the best decisions, but like it has been said, he's making them the Nord way. I like the Nord way. That's probably why vikings in our world disappeared into other cultures a long time ago. It just doesn't last long with the human element. Most people can be bought. That's what I love most about Bethesda's stories. Countries and rule are generally purchased.

I just think it's pretty awesome that all these debates have stirred up. Whether it was on accident or intentional, which i don't see it being an accident, It adds depth to the game. Regardless of someone calling you a name or not, you're still probably going to play Skyrim. So I don't see it being bad for business.

Don't flame me too hard .

+1

This is exactly why the empire was foolish to give up. The Thalmor only seemed to get as far as they did because of their general's strategies. He's captured in the battle of red ring leaving the thalmor army(whatever defense force is left in summerset) without a good general or leadership(And their main army completely destroyed), and they give up? Had they asked it of them, the nords would probably have been pretty happy to march down there and continue the battle for them. Seriously, Mede's not a very good politician. He's the son of a merc leader that happened to take advantage of a major crisis. When an actual war broke loose he had 4 nations on his side against 2.(Would've only been 1 if he had been proactive and tried to salvage the empire.) Mede let the empire crumble into what it is today.

Did I use one example of other races not having any issues? Nope. You seem to have completely ignored the dunmer of windhelm which are expecting special treatment. No other stormcloak city has that problem. Dark elves and argonians run shops in riften, the college of winterhold is run by elves. If you want all races determining the government then go back to cyrodiil which...oh wait it's completely run by men too...perhaps dagger...ah nope all men there too. Hamm...nope. Maybe there are some nord leaders in Morrowind? Ah it appears not. I'm sure the king of Alinor, Ingvar Wolf-scar will set the example for...oh...huh...

You say the nords betrayed the empire? The banning of talos was a pretty big betrayal to them.

Ulfric's a terrible leader, Balgruuf would be a better choice(And had it not been for Ulfric, I think he would've been on the stormcloak side).

Well, on the plus side, they are still waiting for the moot. Maybe Balgruuf will show up and steal the show .

It seems you're only looking at the Thalmor's losses. The Empire lost a lot of legionnaires also, in the book The Great War, all the legions fighting lost over half of their soldiers and they lost 3 whole legions. Also the Dominion is made of 3 nations Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr.