I read it.
i still support Ulfric.
problem?

Wrong. The thalmor sent ALL available forces(leaving only the group in hammerfell as their remaining force) to seize the capital. They were summarily destroyed in the battle of red ring. Unless you're suggesting the thalmor would have sent their homeland defenders to fight immediately after, which is ridiculous. That's just asking to have your homeland sacked. You need to realize, extensive land invasions are difficult to sustain. The thalmor did as well as they did during the great war because they caught Titus with his pants down. There was no need to surrender because the thalmor were literally in no position to attack. The only thing the concordat did was anger the redguards and the nords and give thalmor agents free reign to infiltrate the empire.

Second off. The legionaries are not each provinces army. They're the army of the empire and completely seperate from them.


Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that every other town has dark elves coexisting easily with the nords. Many are depressed because they don't get to claim "Oh look at me I'm house Hlaalu, treat me with respect, bring me your finest wines and cheeses". The argonians outside town have their own embassy...what the hell are you talking about? There are two books about this both reinforcing that the windhelm dark elves are refusing to integrate into nord society. For example, take a look at the orcs. They wanted to keep their own culture intact, so what did they do? They got permission from the jarls to build their own settlements, and guess what, they kept their culture and don't clash with the nords.


You should make a correction there. They beat the skyrim legionary to 50%. Skyrim's armies weren't involved at all. No one's said the legion is incompetant. Titus doesn't know how to lead them.

Thats why I said Red Ring was Mede's only good move. Tactical retreat is good. Making concessions for no reason at all is bad


You mean the god which, without worship, will be unable to reinforce the wheel of convention and allow the end of the world to happen? Sounds like a good idea.
Edit: I think a lot of people don't realize this. The banning of Talos is exactly why the dragons were able to return.


Hammerfell left and did fine on their own. I think the empire needs new leadership. It's been delaying its inevitable death for too long(It died when Martin did). It needs to end and be remade. It's a chicken with its head cut off. I don't think the empire should have fought to the death, but there were no attack forces left for the thalmor to send at them. Build up defenses, conscript from other provinces armies. Prepare for an eventual second attempt in a few years(Probably longer. The altmer of summerset don't reproduce often. Dilutes the purity of their blood) It's not the time to surrender.

Even if the Imperials gave in to the Thalmor, they're not a bunch of Nord-supremacist racists. The only difference between the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor is that the Stormcloaks don't want to invade other nations.

The Stormcloaks, whilst racist, don't seem to have the genocidal goals of the Thalmor. Pretty big difference, there.

Good lord there is no proof the Storm cloaks are any more racist then anyone else in Tamriel. They allow all races to join the rebellion. Just because two drunken asses in Windhelm were harassing a Dark Elf doesn't mean the entire town is full of racists. To say no memebers of the Stormcloaks are racist would be unrealistic on my part, but the majority of Nords within the Rebellion aren't in it to expell anyone. They just want Skyrim to rule itself and allow the worship Talos in the open. The Nords nor Ulfric have ever made the claim of kicking out the other races.

I want one example of a Stormcloak soldier doing a racist action. Not a citizen in Stormcloak terrirtory, an actual Nord in Stormcloak armor doing something racist.


I also feel the need to re post this link on a Nords view on the Windhelm Dunmer.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter

They sent ALL forces, including the force in hammerfell - the 'main army' was destroyed, but the rest remains (it's not clarified how much the rest involves) - then, the remaining ones decide to cut their losses and attack Hammerfall - the large portion of redguard Imperial Legionaries who were deliberately left behind by the imperial general for this purpose formed a resistance and slowly bled out the Thalmor with guerrila warfare over five years. Even then, Hammerfall had to sign a peace treaty similar to the White-Gold Concordat.

As far as the Legion and each provinces army being separate, I haven't heard much confirming either way - anyone got any book quotes showing which one is right? The only military people I see who don't mention having been in the great war as part of the legion are guards, which don't really count, though I guess you could rally up a ton of guards as a sort of militia.


I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't meet any dark elves like that - are you seriously using two seriously dubious racist manifestos as proof? One ibrags about how superior and amazing nords are in all ways, and one brags about how supeior and amazing Dunmer are in all ways. I'm not really seeing much difference, and I certainly wouldn't use either book as a legitimate source of information


I'm pretty sure that for the most part, Skyrim's armies ARE the legions armies - after all, if you talk to almost any stormcloak they were almost all in the legion and deserted at some point, including Ulfric.

There's a specific prophecy that allows the dragons to return, the banning of Talos wasn't really part of it
"

When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world

When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped

When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn."

The Brass Tower walking and Time being reshaped is Numidium, and the Dragon Break at the end of Daggerfall

The Thrice Blessed are Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, and the Red Tower trembling is the eruption of Red Mountain

The Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne in the Oblivion crisis (Martin sacrificing himself)

The Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding, is when Ulfric murders High King Torygg

So actually, Ulfric fulfilled the last bit needed for him to return.
Plus, most imperials still worship Talos - just privately, so they can have time to build up and strike back at the Thalmor. You think that the imperials are any happier about having to stop worshipping the greatest and most beloved of gods, so popular that the rest of the gods were often forgotten when it came to worship? The imperials were just smart enough to know when to present a fake facade of cooperation if it got them the time they needed to rebuild their forces. Ulfric did not - Ulfric saw an opportuntity to boost his ego by saying that such a thing was COWARDLY AND WEAK. Ulfric has no sense of timing or patience.

You've gotta read your books - Hammerfall barely survived, and even tehn it's stated that the only reason they did is because the Legion general declared a ton of his veterans 'invalid' so they could stay behind and lead an insurgency.

I do, however, agree that the terms are a bit ridiculous - but it's not like the empire was eager and overexcited to bend over for their new Thalmor Overlords that they just fought a brutal, exhausting, long war for. If nothing else, emperors are prideful, and as such you have to assume that there was a reason they did such, knowing full well that the Thalmor had an ulterior motive of stirring up discontent by banning the worship of Talos. It's possible the only reason they had that term in the treaty is just so that the Stormcloaks would bleed out the empire for them, saving them the work.

He was going to use Voice of the Emperor (gotta use it when ya can, it's all Imperials get in terms of innate powers other than being money magnets! ), but before he could do so Bethesda removed Charm effects from the universe so all he could do was Calm them

Cecilff2, I've just got to point this out, because you keep saying "The Thalmor had no forces left!" - they had enough soldiers to wage a war of occupation on hostile terrain for another five years.

Against a much smaller force...

I was under the impression the 5 year war in Hammerfell was the Redguard attacking the the Southern coastline and then finally the Dominion saying this [censored] isn't worth it. So they packed up and left. After the loss of Hammerfell all the Dominion has is there main army destroyed, the disbandment of the Blades and the ability for the Thalmor to play Nazi on the Empire.

And 30 years isn't enough time for the High Elves to replace the amount of troops they lost. Elven birth rate is laughably slow compared to humans. The Dominion isn't going to be invading anyone anytime soon. The Empire on the other hand has probably rebuilt the majority of its Legions by the time the game started.

Yeah, - exactly.. That's why the Thalmor worked so hard to trigger a civil war in Skyrim, to take the shiny new army they had been building up and make it kill itself off. As we can see, it was grandly successful. Good job, stormcloaks!

Not at all similar. The redguards gave up nothing. The thalmor were forced out and the redguards said they wouldn't continue their attack if the thalmor stayed out.

I can point you to morrowind if you like. You had the legion there. You had the town guards. And you had the ordinators and armigers which were the tribunal's army. Or perhaps I should point you to daggerfall where with the aid of the numidium, the armies of 3 kingdoms were able to take over their surrounding rivals. The empire has been pretty lax on allowing places to keep forces in the past. The septims were fine with it so long as you stayed allied.


The nord also praises the elves of Riften because they actually attempted to fit in. You can see the difference in attitudes between the two cities.



A lot of the nords in the rebellion liked the empire. The empire stood for mankind and didn't oppress them. Talos had really left a good impression on them. Harboring the enemies agenda was a betrayal to them hence their defection. These are not all stormcloaks though. Beth unfortunately isn't going to voice in backgrounds for every single person.

That prophecy is an indication of when it will happen, not why. http://www.imperial-library.info/book/export/html/2865 is why(Second section). Ulfric was a sign of the times, and I agree he's a terrible figurehead for the stormcloaks. I wish he would have been executed. I'm almost certain Balgruuf would have supported the Stormcloak rebellion had it happened.

I did read the book. Hammerfall didn't barely survive. In fact it wasn't until the legion washed their hands of hammerfall until they started winning battles. The southern coast was devastated under imperial command, not Redguard.

The Thalmor leaders know that removing Talos is the key to alduin's return. See the link above.


I'm pretty sure I said the only force left was the one in Hammerfall, and the Redguards took care of that on their own without any support.

Not yet, though some in game books hint that Ulfric had no issue with violent treatment of non Nords. I wouldn't doubt for a second that any Mer in Skyrim under Ulfric's rule would be violently subjugated, if not killed or cast out. So yeah, they might be a step below the Thalmor, but if that't their guiding star, then the rebellion wouldn't have been a good idea ever.

im still waiting on a sourse that states that Ulfric and the Exking was great buddys, bc i still only found that they respected each other...........that was it.

I'm not sure that was a 2 way relationship. Torygg highly respected Ulfric and even supported the stormcloaks. Ulfric finally snapped and took Toryggs current tolerance of imperial rule as approval. Partly because he desperately wanted to strike out against the Thalmor, and partly because he's a bit power mad. If the reason you dislike stormcloaks is because you don't like Ulfric, I can totally agree with you there. Ulfric needs to go, he's a detriment to the cause.

Had Ulfric tried to convince Torygg instead of going off the deep end, he probably would've garnered a lot more support for the stormcloak cause.(Solitude is a rather influential hold, and the high king holds a good deal of sway too.)

Actually, to make the Thalmor leave, they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai, which, while nowhere near as harsh as the White-Gold Concordat, was like the White-Gold Concordiat (which separated the Empire from Hammerfell) in that it ensured that Hammerfell will be bound to be unable to rejoin or assist the Empire in any future conflicts. This was after a brutal, five years war that left the southern half of the country almost uninhabitable due to scorched-earth tactics. This is including the majority of the legion's assistance helping defeat much of the Thalmor army in Hammerfell, earlier in the war, and, when the legion general had to return to Cyrodiil, he declared a good third of his army, including a large portion of highly skilled veterans, as "invalids", so they could legally stay behind and lead the defense of Hammerfell. That group was then responsible for a huge rout of Aldmeri forces with guerrila warfare that slowly bled the main army in Hammerfell to death, allowing a treaty to be signed.

Despite this, the main goal of the Thalmor was still accomplished - relationships between Hammerfell and the Empire were damaged, possibly irrevocably, which is exactly why the Thalmor demanded Hammerfell in the first place.

Having accomplished making Hammerfell split off from the empire in their grand plan of divide and conquer, they moved to their next target : Skyrim. Ulfric was all too happy to oblige, with a little deliberate taunting from the Thalmor, and bam, he's making humanity fight each other again. Another win for the thalmor.


Morrowind had special terms - they were much more independent than any other province, having joined peacefully with a treaty that left them a whole lot of self-influence (including legal slavery, which was illegal everywhere else). However, I wasn't aware about the daggerfall armies - I have to wonder how big they are, though - certainly the Empire would never allow any of their subjects to have anywhere near even a fraction of their military might.



If by "fit in" you mean "conform" that's a pretty terrible attitude to take. Riften isn't exactly a.. shining beacon of prosperity either. The whole place is so rotten to the bone as far as corruption goes that the Jarl isn't even really a stormcloak supporter - she mumbles 'oh yeah ulfric is nice and whatever sure yeah' - she's pretty much a puppet for her Altmer advisor and Maven Black-Briar. Generally the powerful are the ones that institutionalize racism, and racism is unprofitable, so nobody particularly cares.

Those nords are pretty fickle friends, then - the second that Talos's greatest work, his grand empire encompassing the whole continent, shows a sign of weakness, and the second they need Skyrim's help the most, they pounce like jackals, abandoning them. I'm not sure that's showing much respect to Talos.

The empire doesn't 'harbor the agenda of the Thalmor' - they hate the thalmor just as fervently as any stormcloak. Hell, they hate them MORE than the stormcloaks. They were the ones who had their homes razes, their families killed, their armies destroyed, and their lands ruined, ultimately in a futile war. They are the ones that were nearly destroyed, while Skyrim is untouched by the war due to the sheer luck of not sharing a border with the Thalmor. The Nords have no right to judge what Cyrodiil had to do, really. Maybe if the Thalmor had invaded Skyrim directly somehow instead of Cyrodiil, and had their capital crushed and their populace devastated, and if they were forced to sign a treaty banning worship of Talos or die, then they might have a say, but.. they didn't.

It's crazy to think that the imperials welcomed their oconquerors with open arms and gladly support them in every way - they're just biding their time to strike.





Again, the Legion left surreptitiously left a huge portion of their army behind to lead an insurgency, and the vast majority of the Thalmor army followed the imperial army, to attack the Imperial City.

Where are you getting this? The Thalmor dossier on dragons is pretty much "where the hell are these guys coming from? Maybe we can take advantage of them, but we need to figure out what's up with them first"

The Thalmor want to get rid of Talos because he's the god of humanity, and humanity and Talos are an anchor keeping the world mundane, physical, and mortal, instead of the immortal, spiritual, timeless cosmos that existed before the dawn of time. All the 'towers' in the prophecy are actually some of the metaphysical pillars that the stability of the universe rest on too, and you might notice that in every game, one falls. Each tower has a 'stone' - an object that allows it to function. Numidium's stone was it's heart thing, which was destroyed. Red Mountain's was the Heart of Lorkhan, which was destroyed. White-Gold's was the Amulet of Kings, which was destroyed. Several have even fallen off-screen (The one in the Aldmeri Dominion, for one). The Thalmor want to presumably get rid of the rest to end the world and prevent it from ever existing again, to allow elves to become immortal gods again instead of mere mortals. If Alduin destroys the world before that happens, a new world would just be born afterward, which is not the end they desire.

The Throat of the World, where High Hrothgar is one, but we have no idea what the stone of it is - possibly it's already gone? Possibly it's something as simple as a high king to rule Skyrim, due to the way that the prophecy is phrased.

Interestingly enough, the first, the most powerful, and possibly one of the last towers in existence is the Adamantine Tower in High Rock - one of the last provinces of the empire, and sharing a border with Skyrim and Hammerfell, as well as the Aldmeri Dominion - I wonder if the next Thalmor are setting things up so that High Rock will have no one to come to defend it if they invade, so they can move in and take out the Ur-Stone.



If you talk to his mother, she says that Torygg was an adoring fan of Ulfric, much to her disapproval. It's possible that Ulfric is too much of a [censored] to accept that an 'imperial lapdog' might admire him, though. Still, Ulfric could have avoided the entire civil war by just asking Torygg to join him or step down - then Skyrim would at least secede cleanly as a whole nation.

Do you have a source on the exact terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai? The great war made it out to be a basic "Get out of hammerfall and we won't keep fighting you"


The empire never really touched Black Marsh either. The empire allowed it, because they had garrisons in each of their capitals. Try a rebellion and you had the legion breaking down your palace doors in seconds.



You don't go to someone's house and pee in their sink. You conform to the rules of their home. You don't and they're liable to get ticked off at you.


Is it better respect to the founder to keep an organization that's lost all its identity going? The Empire is nothing like it used to be.

Maybe if the Mede Dynasty hadn't been so incompetant...maybe if Titus II hadn't accepted a treaty which didn't benefit the empire in any way but greatly benefitted the thalmor.

And speeding along the end of the world.

They didn't expect the other dragons. Just Auri-el.

I linked it in the last post but you seem to have missed it

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

The second section.


Yep. You should check out the letters from Chimere in the lore forums(I think the topic is named something like "On the day of Beothiah's summoning"). Chimere knew what was coming too and sent warnings to the imperial city, which unfortunately don't seem to have been heeded either. The towers hold mundus together, Talos holds back the merish aspects of time(Auri-el/Alduin).


Seems to have something to do with the nords themselves. But no, we don't know yet what it is.


I'm pretty sure that there's another. I remember it being speculated that the hist were a tower. There's also Falinesti, but there's no good indication that it still functions(It stopped moving after all)

Had to remove some quotes due to quote limits

Just a couple notes,
-The Heart of Lorkhan wasn't destroyed, the enchantments binding it were simply removed.
-The Amulet of Kings may no longer exist as the stone for White-Gold, but chances are the Statue of Akatosh took on the role of stone (or perhaps took on the full role of tower, leaving White-Gold defunct but replaced).

I forgot which book it's from, but an in-game text mentions that Altmer birthrate isn't nearly as slow as it's made out to be. Rather, they kill most of their newborns to maintain racial purity.

There is also the vassal state of Elswyr to contend with, and I don't believe Bosmer have low birthrates either.

That's the tricky thing - the treaty is given in very vague terms in books, with minor details scattered throughout, but Sasha and the Alik'r both refer to the Thalmor interfering heavily in Hammerfell, and mention some sort of 'rebellion' - neither of them clarify, and both of them contradict each other in ways, so it's difficult to know what's going on there. A few history books do mention something about the treaty's purpose was to attempt to cement Hammerfell's secession so that it would no longer be part of the empire, so the Thalmor considered it a big victory. The main information in-game you hear, thoug, is from the quest in whiterun with Sasha saying that she's being assassinated for speaking out against the Thalmor, and the Alik'r say that she's one of the people who 'sold out' hammerfell to the thalmor both seem to imply that the Thalmor are still there, and meddling, through intermediaries.. Though one or the other are lying, the general consensus is that there is heavy thalmor manipulation going on in Hammerfell and that they've still got their hands full trying to cut out the disease




There's a huge difference between a country and a house, and a home invader and a refugee. There's also a big difference between trying to just keep their head low and not be a part of the war and 'peeing in the sink' The Dunmer would have been perfectly fine in any imperial city - the fact that they're not fine in a stormcloak one obviously says something. Hel, I'd bet a lot of the Dunmer would vastly prefer to live in an empire city, but, being refugees, had little choice on where to settle.

I don't consider a wealthy, influential Altmer who has greased the right palms and made the right friends in the city to be a very trustworthy source on how 'easy' it is to get accepted, compared to refugees who had moved in carrying nothing but the clothes on their backs.

It's still amazing to me you're quoting that book as fact when it has such juicy bits as

"For an alternative approach, we only have to look at the once-proud city of Windhelm to see what can happen when our arms are cast too wide open in welcome. To think that the city of Ysgramor, whose very name was made in driving out the elves from our sacred home, would open itself as a welcome destination for any refugee from the smoking sulphur [sic], is a disgrace to the very idea of being a Nord."

Yes, it's a DISGRACE that elves were even allowed within the city in the first place. I'm sure that they were treated as fairly as any other race with that kind of mindset.
On top of that,
"There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities Argonian population as well; the fish-men, at least, have learned how to best contribute to their new home. They have proven themselves as models, toiling at the docks with utmost efficiency and bright smiles. It would do the dark elves well to pay heed to their scaly cousins. I would expect in due course that they will find themselves either contributing more directly or once again wandering the land in search of roof and warmth.
How optimistic! We will soon expel these subhuman beings. And then you go out to the docks and find the Argoians miserable skooma addicts with barely enough food to pay for themselves, and if you read the diary of their taskmasters, they deliberately addicted them to Skooma to make them dependant upon them so they couldn't find other work.


It hadn't been incompotent - it did, after all, retake the Imperial City and get a treaty instead of a surrender. It has not lost it's entire identity either. All it did was fake that it would stop worship of Talos, and stop public displays while everyone still did it in private. The Thalmor little inquisitions only started going around after Ulfric started flaunting the fact that the Nords were going to ignore the treaty entirely. The real 'crime' of the Empire is not being able to win against an overwhelming, and overwhelmingly cunning force.

You can be sure as hell that the Thalmor planned to get Hammerfall out of the ball game as soon as possible, splitting the empire's forces, and permanently damaging ties. The Great War accomplished everything they could have hoped for, and more. Considering how hard they worked to get Hammerfell to secede, I would think that you'd work as hard as you possibly could to keep humanity united and prevent skyrim from breaking off due to bickering that the Thalmor planned to happen by putting in those unjust bits in the treaty. If humanity decides to unite despite the Thalmor's manipulations, that's the biggest middle finger you could give them.


That's really up to interpretation there - Alduin and Akatosh do not seem to be one and the same being. Alduin refers to himself as the 'firstborn of Akatosh' and I highly doubt we killed what was pretty much the head of the pantheon. I don't think that Talos has come even close to being "erased from the mystic", and neither has not only man, but the possibility of man, been removed - both would need to happen before the 'dragon could unwind'. If that happened I don't think that a literal dragon would come and eat the world like in the cash of Alduin, too. It sounds more like Reality itself unraveling. Regardless, it's never implied in game, and the Thalmor were specifically confused about Alduin showing up in Helgen, even though, under your theory, that's exactly the dragon they would be looking for - Auri-El. In fact, they were ready to blame the /blades/ for it. I can't imagine that if they wanted Auri-El to show up they would be as confused and worried just because Auri-El came with some minions that do his bidding - they should be happy about in that case.



Pretty much, to sum it up, I'm really not seeing how humanity can survive divided - the only real way that I could see myself supporting the Stormcloaks, despite my personal dislike of Ulfric, is if they intended to take over the whole empire itself, and make it stronger than ever in the face of the Thalmor. But, they seem to have pretty much no interest in that, and due to the general bad feelings I can't imagine them helping when the empire's 'elven overlords' decide to finish the job - I just hate how the Thalmor's divide-and-conquer tactics seem to be working so well. A free skyrim is great and all, but not if it means everyone else is enslaved or dead

If you run across those history books again, can you send me a link? I'd like a clearer understanding of that treaty, and the alik'r/saadia thing just isn't helpful. Did she betray them before, during or after the war? There's no indication by either side unfortunately.



So these dunmer in STORMCLOAK controlled Riften or STORMCLOAK controlled Winterhold that are doing just fine. Why are they accepted? Are they all actually nords in disguise?

Yeah, the altmer made friends, the dunmer didn't TRY to get along with the nords. This is the big difference. Dunmer do have a superiority complex. Hell most races in TES in general have one. If you've played Morrowind you know exactly what their attitude is like. Accepting help from nords must have been the most humiliating thing for them. They're disgusted they even had to do it. The dunmer do not like non dunmer. The nords don't think highly of non-mannish races. But guess what, the nords were willing to accept them into their country anyways. It's not like Mede would have done anything if the Nords had decided to slaughter the entire refugee group.


Indeed I quote it because it speaks to the thought process of a typical nord. This is a nord that condemns windhelm Dark Elves and praises the ones in Riften. You know, the ones that are attempting to actually befriend the nords? This is the home of the nords, it isn't morrowind. If you want to live like a dunmer noble, go make your own settlement. You move into a predominantly [insert group here] neighborhood and make remarks that all [insert group here] are lower than you, you're not going to be well accepted. And you STILL get nords trying to help them out anyways. The dark elves mock you when you go into the grey quarter or the cornerclub.


Calling it a treaty when the empire is the only one making concessions is ridiculous. That was a surrender. Mede had several bargaining chips(The main army of the thalmor were annihilated, and he had one of their better commanders prisoner), and he used none of them to broker the terms.


And Hammerfall seceded because Mede was stupid enough to consider cyrodiil as the only part of the empire that mattered. Mede didn't take into account any of the other provinces. He has no concept of public relations whatsoever.


Ald son of Ald. Alduin is the nordic version of Akatosh, but he's still akatosh. Akatosh is schitzophrenic with multiple personalities because multiple races believe him to be certain ways and the gods are shaped by belief. If the altmer didn't ban Talos and continued their plan, a shezzarine would have shown up and ruined everything.(And despite it, enough nords continued to worship Talos and a shezzarine showed up anyways) They always do. The empire was formed by a lying deceiving backstabber who rose to divinity. Ulfric's already trying to mantle that role again. Talos holds back the next kalpa, gods gain their power from worshippers. You ban talos worship, and eventually you'll get alduin. The thalmor expected the auri-el version though. The defender of elves that will wipe out mankind for them.



Humanity can survive this way because the thalmor are actually quite weak right now. They're keeping up a facade of power to prevent a counterattack. They did it in the past(Read The Rising Threat) too. Now they have to deal with raids from skyrim in addition to trying to make sure the empire doesn't suddenly change its plans. Successful attacks from Skyrim will show the empire what they're dealing with. I get the feeling that Ulfric will eventually try to form a new empire. He's putting up too many parallels to old Tiber Septim to be a coincidence.

1. The stormcloaks never claimed a generalized "freedom of religion". That is a modern invention. They claimed that they went to war specifically for worship of Talos (among other things).
2. It is never hypocrisy to make decisions based on current knowledge even when that knowledge is incomplete. You cannot know that information till later in the game, and even discussing it openly on this forum could be considered a spoiler.

-there is no mention of the Treaty of Stros M'kai outside of "The Great War"
-Kematu: Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war .
-The Dragonborn is a better candidate for Talos II than Ulfric.

Big empires aren't inherently more stable than independent but aligned parties. Empires have major weaknesses, one being the difficulty of governing over disparate geography and cultures, but the main one being that if the head is weak or otherwise compromised then the whole thing crumbles. I don't see the empire's dissolution as a victory of Thalmor strategy so much as an historical inevitability. Sure, they are going to try to exploit this, but it could come back to bite them if the independent states land on their feet.

This is why I see more hope, actually, in a Stormcloak victory- as long as it is a decisive victory and if Ulfric either proves to be as good a leader as he is a general (I admit I have doubts on this score) OR if he has someone at his side who fills this role. In my game, that's my Dovahkiin. On a game where I don't see my character as wanting to be his right hand, it would be more difficult for me to support the Stormcloaks.

-I'm convinced that the "Invalid" force consisted almost entirely of Redguards
-The Thalmor army did not know that the legion had left, and stayed.



The Concordat is what accomplished everything they hoped for, not the war itself. If the Dominion was strong enough to defeat what was left of the Legion after Red Ring they would have. If they were overwhelmingly strong they would have defeated the Redguards.