I was building off of the argument L33ty was making about why taking Riften is still a good move for Tullius if he only has Morthal and Solitude under his control. At that point, anything to take pressure off of Solitude is a good move.

When it comes to moving large battalions on the battlefield, Tullius is more experienced, compared to Ulfric's previous experience of commanding smaller units against the Aldmeri Dominion. When it comes to guerilla warfare, that's Ulfric's strongpoint.

They don't know they're there...

I mean, why are there stormcloak camps right next to Solitude?... It's because they don't know they're there.. same applies to the imperial and stormcloak camps in Whiterun.

Ulfric isn't good for much of anything besides making pretty speeches.

This.

All he is, is a man of words. Good words albeit, but it's just talk.

ulfric's long time goals for the war is to kick the empire and the dominion out of skyrim, since there is no way he could easily take the city by force (he knows how hard that is first hand, he did it before, when the empire could not) so he took it another way and with the cease fire in place (he thinks it would go on longer, everyone does) he has enough breathing room to start making plans on how to defend it and get the most out of it (and the story seems to point to the player having already taken whiterun in the war quest-line, feels like it to me, at least)

Right, which is why he and a small militia were able to take back Markarth from the Forsworn... a nearly impregnable defensive position, as an http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Holds_of_Skyrim even says. Then force the imperial puppet to commit suicide by thu'um.

Yes, he's worthless.

And yet it was quick, well planned ambush, and not large troop movements, that resulted in Ulfric going to the chopping block.

I'd actually argue that the difference between them is that Ulfric is the better politician, while Tullius is the better commander. I've never seen anything attributed to Ulfric that demonstrates any real tactical or strategic skill. In fact, he seems to favor a brute force approach. At Markarth, he didn't out maneuver the Foresworn. He blew them off the walls with his shout, then rushed the gates. He is, however, very charismatic and very good at getting people to follow him. He's also demonstrated a skill at political maneuvering.

Tullius, on the other hand, is an old military man and a general. He outmaneuvered Ulfric to capture him in an ambush and almost ended the war right there. He's also given credit for turning the war around almost as soon as he arrived. He is, however, not a politician. That becomes apparent when you listen to his conversations with Rikke. Here he is, trying to wage a war, but he's forced to play politics with the Jarls and it clearly frustrates him.

Yes... he is. Obviously he got hit on the head real hard since then, because he isn't the same genius now as he was during Markarth.

The ambush was obviously planned with an inside informer. Ralof says it was like the imperials knew right where they would be. It was quite a coup, granted, but you can still be the best strategist in the world and fall to a mischance. See Hannibal.

Ulfric is a fine strategist. He has fewer resources than the imperials, he's overthrowing an empire that started in Skyrim, and brings the war to a stalemate even with troops coming in from outside Skyrim- even with Thalmor doing the dirty work. No one else could have done what he did. Tullius is a good general, too- I consider them both competent and pretty evenly matched antagonists. I don't know why people feel it's necessary to nitpick and just plain make up crap to make it otherwise. The story is set up very well precisely because both sides have advantages and disadvantages.


So that's why the empire can't beat him unless they have the dragonborn? Whatever.

While this is a bit off topic: I am under the impression that Ulfric is far from that incompetent. By using the political traditions of the Nord he managed to gain the support of about half the country by killing the High King. If he didn't have a mind for politics he would never have pulled that off without being national enemy number 1.


Ulfric, according to the dialog from Hadvar and, IIRC Legate Rikke, was winning the war until General Tullius, one of the most experienced and skilled generals in the Imperial Army(he is sent by the Emperor to solve problems, or at least he says so if you ask about why he is in Skyrim. I don't see any reason for him to lie about this) came along. After excaping from Helgen he hold the Civil War in a stalemate against Tullius, until the Dragonborn takes a side and tip the scales to one side or the other.

No, I don't think his only quality is making pretty speeches. Sometimes I feel people are trying to paint him as incompetent to justify that they side with the Empire in the Civil War.

Uh...I'm pretty sure they were just about to sever is head off, and if it wasn't for Alduin, it would have been over then.

People claim that he can send enough of the money to Eastmarch during the ceasefire. Problem is, I don't remember both sides allowing soldiers or convoys to move through their own territory. So even during the ceasefire, Ulfric will have a hard time moving out the gold. If a convoy can make it through a Forsworn infested land. (And trust me, they probably hate the Stormcloaks more then the Empire.) Then they will go through the Empire. If their is a for covering the border. In the Ceasefire, they would have to turn back or the fighting will continue. When the war continues, the convoys simply gets attacked. The only other advantage besides the Silver is that Ulfric could launch a two front attack on Solitude. Though at this point, the cons outweight the pros.

If, if... [censored] happens and as you see, it can happen to either side. It doesn't mean that Ulfric is a bad leader or bad strategist in the general scheme of things.

Tullius can't even protect his emperor
But, if you're just an Ulfric hater looking for excuses, I suppose it works for you.

I'm not on either side ofcourse but to be fair it is not Tullius's fault That was Commander Maro's job. If anything the blame should be on Maro.

Ouch that hurt from here and I'm on your side.

Actually if you the Stormcloaks take Markarth, you find out the population actually supports the Stormcloaks. For instance, Lisbeth says the Stormcloaks must have Talos with them which means she supports them while Skaal says he's glad Talos worship is open again. In addition, the meat merchant says that he doesn't care who controls the city so at the very least people are ambivalent to supportive of the Stormcloaks and not Imperial lovers.

Yupyup. Plus, if the dragonborn wants someone dead, odds are it's gonna happen, no matter who is protecting you.

I agree, now that I remembered that. Ulfric has the charisma, and thus is a better politician,while Tullius is the better commander. Tullius is not the politician type, and is the ''get in there and get the job done'' type. Ulfric commonly uses brute force, as demonstrated when he killed Toryyg. I think Ulfric dosen't understand that brute force dosen't always work.

He's been caught 2 or 3 times already, and the only reason he wasn't outright dead after Helgen is because Alduin attacked. Doesn't exactly sound like a great strategist to me.

Edit: "Sometimes I feel people are trying to paint him as incompetent to justify that they side with the Empire in the Civil War."

^ Yes, much in the same way that many Stormcloak supporters act like the Empire is purely bad and totally run by corrupt [censored]s, and during the great war they just completely rolled over and died without a fight.

I guess justifications and assumptions are only ok when your a Nord eh? lol

He's brash and overconfident. Just because he has the Thu'um doesn't mean he's a genius.

I guess no one told him.

With Ulfric holding onto Markarth he gains money, silver, and also keeps all that from the Legion. Ulfric can just ship the silver near Falkreath where there are Stormcloak sympathizers, up the mountains past Helgen, up to Ivarstead and then on to Windhelm. The Silver caravans would be VERY heavily guarded by mercenaries and Stormcloak soldiers. Forsworn may be barberians, but their not stupid. Even if Ulfric did not ship it out of Markarth, he can keep it out of Legion hands, while using the coin to hire mercs in the Reach to attack and harrass Legion forces and caravans leaving Soitude, and by doing that would deny the outlying Legion forces of reinforcements and supplies.

The Legion being in control of the Rift meanwhile would have very little advantages other than being close enough to use it as a staging area for an attack on Windhelm and being able to attack and harrass Stormcloak supply and reinforcement caravans. Riften is a highly corrupted city not unlike Markarth, but Riften has no economical value due to the Thieves guild being based there and bribable guards.

Tullius is the imperial governor in Skyrim. If your emperor is in town, it's your business.

His business is the war, the only reason he was brought there. In no way was he involved with the Emperor's visit.

Just like if Obama went to Afghanistan, the Generals wouldn't be in charge of his safety.

When was he captured before?