It's an automatic update.

Well I have no idea what to do my game was working fine it updated to 15.0 and now my mod causes CTD when loading in cells I have been in before on my mod. I turned my mod off it works fine what happened I have no idea.

Tried using a old backup of the mod still getting CTD old backup worked fine in 14.7 but now is broken in 15.0.
Tried removing nav meshes with tesnip still CTD when rentering cell.
Tried redoing nav meshes still CTD when rentering cell.
Tried removing some cells still CTD when rentering cell.
Tried renaming and making plugin into a esm did small test and it did not CTD, but all the stuff I deleted in skyrim world space and landscape I edited are there again and screws everything up.

Dont know how to proceed now on hold until I can get a answer. Please help.


here is my mod

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=12792

The navamesh in my mod seems to be better, but I am also experiencing the CTD when exiting my interiors. And the floating grass bug has returned to my CK...but is not visible in game. None of my modded exterior cells in the CK contain any of the grass textures (I am using all the "Nograss" ones) but the grass shows up anyway in the CK, and this time will not go away when I texture over it.

User on nexus posted a fix for the ctds related to door load CTDs. Delete and redo all of your interior navmeshes. Worked for me, unfortunately all save games with that mod become corrupted and unusable.

Funny stuff...people are going to be pissed when I release my next version of Deus Mons. Oh well.

Could you post a link to the nexus post? One of my interiors is massive and I really don't want to have to redo all the navamesh in that interior!
Also, I was using clean save games and still getting the CTD in my mod.

Concisely, navmeshes load properly now multiple times in one session.

However, the game crashes when you load an area with altered vanilla navmeshes, go far enough away.... and fast travel back to it?

No crash when you approach on foot though.

This is what Arthmoor has found.

Geez, you'd think the Creation Kit would've been 100% before they launched the whole Steam Workshop thing...
Or what?
Hey I'm an old guy (and I remember when quality used to be important).
Anyway, better late than never...
(I know some Oblivion modders who have been waiting since 2006 for this fix.)

...A new bug!?
Yikes, good luck with that - hopefully something simple!

NavMesh works... finally... but this new CTD bug is annoying for house mods.

Keep in mind they developed the tool for their own inhouse use. They didn't account for every single little scenario that we may encounter a bug in. They fix them as we call them out. Be thankful for that. They could just throw us the tools, then go hands off and ignore us. But they don't.

This should give us an idea of how complex both the game and the CK are. Everything seems to be interconnected and interdependent. do something to one thing, it affects other things which in turn affecct still other things. It reminds me of how one medical treatment may correct one issue and cause another.

Give them time and let them find out what caused this new issue.

Exactly.

Even the Navmesh bug wasn't immediately apparent. You create your space, COC to it, walk around in it and observe that your NPCs are working as intended, then you complete the rest of the mod and release it. And because you test everything in chunks, you're constantly restarting the game (resetting the navemesh functionality), so while designing you don't even know there is a problem. It wasn't until people who downloaded the mods with new or edited navmeshes crossed in and out of the affected areas while playing other parts of the game that the problem was even noticed.

And Bethesda, working directly with the ESM durring development, never would have encountered it because the navmeshes are part of the master file and therefore not conflicting.

And I am willing to bet that the CTD issue people are experiencing has something to do with the internal version of the game differing slightly from the released version. Either that or when they built the latest version, something was compiled in a wrong order. What do I mean?

Let's say we're got three coders working on different elements. One of them makes certain changes to a resource so that his current project works correctly with whatever that resource governs. One of the other two coders working on a different project also modifies the same resource for the same reason, but it is modified in a different way. The third coder has no need to modify the resource, even though his project needs to reference it. They all submit their individual work files so they can be compiled together. Coder 1 and 2's changes work because they were compiled in the right order. Coder 3's work seems to compile okay because the resource is only referenced. However, the changes made to the resource by either coder 1 or coder 2 messes with something that causes Coder 3's work to be bugged when run, but not immediately noticible.

I think it is safe to say that BGS has more than 3 coders working on varrious projects. All it takes is for one coder's work to be out of sync with everything else and Nasty Things^TM end up happening. You know what they say about too many chefs in the kitchen.

I'm glad they didn't just throw it at us and walk away too. However, I think it's at least relevant to mention they have known that there are bugs with the navmesh and NPC's skin tones since 2008. These are not new issues. Oh wait, neither was the heightmap issue.

They also don't use the CK they give us. Their version can do a lot more. Which is why stuff like the Navmesh bug was not found in testing. You know, because Bethesda doesn't have programmers smart enough to test the actual product they are releasing. (mildly bitter)

Actually it's not the case that they've known about the navmesh bug since 2008. One person phoning it in to tech support in an abusive manner repeatedly for years doesn't mean a thing.

It may well have been reported on the Fallout user forums back in the day, but quickly forgotten when Elminster cooked up the MasterUpdate hack in FO3Edit. So the community as a whole stopped reporting it, and Bethesda had no user facing motivation to investigate it, assuming they were even aware of it.

I take them at their word in the podcast when they flatly say they had no visibility on it before Skyrim. Steam Workshop forced the issue to the surface. Those of us in the beta group raised it during and after the CK beta, and since Bethesda DOES have a user facing motivation to fix it, it's getting fixed.

Same thing with the NPC face bug. MasterUpdate in FO3 rendered it moot, and the community as a whole stopped raising the issue. In Skyrim, once again, it got forced to the surface by the Workshop.

Bottom line: The Workshop has been enormously beneficial for rooting these long standing issues out and getting them fixed. The navmesh CTD bug will get there, it's annoying as hell, but it will get fixed.

Uh, no. Joel has repeatedly posted and podcasted that our CK is their CK. The only exception being 3rd party tool support, and the version control module. In the podcast they said they're looking at licensing those 3rd party tools out, just don't expect it anytime soon. We know for sure that covers Havok animations. We can infer the possibility of a 3DSMax exporter.

Either way, they've said that we got what they used to make 99.9% of the game with.

Well, maybe users didn't officially report it to the Devs, but there are dozens and dozens of posts in the archives of the mismatch skin tones especially, and also of the navmesh problems with both FO3 & NV, so the word is definitely out there. I'm sure they have someone who reads the forums, so it's still out there to easily see.

At any rate, I hope you are correct that it does get fixed. Heck, I'd just like to see the release notes from this CK update to see if anything was done in the patch to begin addressing the issue.

Here is the nexus link...it's a pretty short thread. http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/625296-crashing-when-entering-modded-cells/page__view__findpost__p__4920088

Now read what you just wrote...

Those 3rd party tools are what hid some of the big bugs. They've even said so on these forums.

No, it was the version control aspect that hid them, and the fact that Bethesda normally only works with .esm files. Yanking the hooks for havok animation plugin support is highly unlikely to result in gross errors in NPC navigation or in facial textures not converting properly.

If it did though, then their code is clearly not isolated enough. Or Gamebryo really is at fault for all of this.

The Navmesh bug, as I said above, was not noticable until players who downloaded mods that had edited or new navmeshes crossed in and out of the affected areas while playing the REST of the game. If you will recall, most mod authors were not even aware of the issue until getting feedback from players. As far as Bethesda, as I said, they were not developing Skyrim with .ESPs. They were developing the ESM which is unaffected.

They did not encounter the >64x bug either. Why? Because Skyrim's walkable area did not extend beyond that range.

LOD could be generated within the CK for up to 4x4 quad if I recall, but began having problems. Why didn't Bethesda have problems generating LOD? Because the Tamriel worldspace fits within a 4x4 quad area.

Why do you suppose this is the case? Skyrim was developed not only for the PC, but for XBox360 and PS3. Bethesda is a business. Businesses exist for ONE PURPOSE: TO MAKE MONEY! As much as we PC users may hate it, We represent only potentially 1/3 of their profit margin. The supported consoles have hardware limitations on them which the PC does not. It would not surprise me if their calculations indicated that the best those consoles could handle was 4x4 quads worth of data in LOD, Heightmap, and explorable terrain, so they optimized everything around that. And make no mistake. Developing for these consoles was not a decision made on the developer level. That came from corporate. And there was no doubt a lot of investment capitol riding on Skyrim's compatibility with the consoles. And let's not kid ourselves. Far more people have consoles than have cutting edge PCs that warrant cutting-edge optimization. From a business standpoint, core development was apropriately focused towards console optimization. We weren't shafted. We were just put on the back burner. Before Skyrim became LAA-supportive, if you ran it with settings that approximated what you could get out of the consoles, then for the most part, it played fine. So out of the box, we got at least what the consolers got.

Now it's our turn. They are working on fixing issues associated not only with the game, but with the CK as well. The Navmesh bug is fixed, but doing so broke something else. As mentioned in my above post, in a piece of software as complex as this, with who knows how many elements sharing resources in ways we have no way of fully knowing short of directly examining the source code, I can accept the problems that are occuring. They may even already know what caused it. For all we know, they may push out a fix relatively quickly.

Have you ever taken your car into the shop and the mechanic, whom you have trusted for a long time, determines what needs to be done, only to find out afterward that it only fixed an underlying problem and another one rears its head? It doesn't mean he's incompetent or trying to cheat you. It just means that there was more wrong than was evident. Sometimes completely fixing a problem is a process of elimination. Trial and error. I would like to point out the people in this community working on solutions to the issues we've been facing have had their fair share of process of elimination and trial and error. Just because BGS's coders get paid to do their job doesn't mean they do not go through the same process.

At least they are trying to get it sorted. So let's cut them some slack...

As for heightmap, Bethesda abandoned it back with FO3, opting to use external art programs to generate it. After all, why spend hours, day or even months trying to optimize a feature within the tools that already works flawlessly elsewhere. I'm figuring they used Photoshop to develop their 2D assets and 3D Studio Max for their 3D assets. Both are proprietary, and any extensions that might have been tied into formatting the results for use in Skyrim's internal handling systems probably were not legal to release with the CK, no doubt due to 3rd-party licensing restrictions. That's probably why importing heightmaps and such is so problematic.

Keep im mind that the CK at its core does what it is supposed to do. It allows for creating new quests and areas they take place in and integrating them into a game already in progress.

Some people on here are acting as if we are paying a subscription fee. We paid our money. We got what we paid for. They don't owe us anything. And yet they are working on it anyway.

They deserve appreciation, not condemnation...

I've said far more than I originally planned. Sorry. Let's just chill...

Though I hate to keep digging this link up and throwing it around, I shall anyway: http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2010/04/19/hear-that-knocking-sound-its-pc-gaming/

Those figured may be two years old now but there's no reason to think that they haven't followed the projections. It's the kind of thing that makes you wonder just why certain developers and publishers have it in their heads that the console market eclipses the PC market. It doesn't. Not by a long shot.

Granted, we didn't get shafted here, except for the stuff PC users were promised during the marketing campaign. "Face melting" graphics and DX11 support being chief among them. The developers simply didn't have eyes on how things would play out once mods entered in. Their process up until recently hasn't had to keep them in consideration. So again, people may despise it, but the Steam Workshop is why the focus on PC fixes is so high right now.

The support they have given the community is awesome, don't get me wrong. I have no doubt it must be a nightmare supporting stuff like this. But they do, and because of this, I'll always buy Bethesda games and DLC.

It's just unfortunate that in this case the cure is worse than the disease. I have a semi stable version of my Deus Mons done now for 1.5, but I had to tear it apart with TESVSnip to get it working after the new update. I tried doing it in the CK but got nothing but crashes unless I felt like deleting some 5 hours of navmesh work over multiple cells including the exterior...and starting over on it, which I am not going to do. Still have crashes, but not near as many.

Unfortunately I have not been able to get save games to work with esps edited with the CK, and this was before using TESVSnip. Does not bother me much as I've not played more than 4 or 5 hours of Skyrim lately, but for users that have spent hours moving items into the location with high level characters, I could understand if a few get pissed. And I don't mean the basic buggy save games, we're talking text popping up stating that the save is pretty much screwed and can't be used. I've never seen this until today. And this issue affects pretty much every single player built location...bummer. Especially for those that do not have the experience or time to fix something that was not originally broken.

From what I've just found, it won't be necessary to completely scrap your navmeshes and rebuild them. It didn't help with my alt-start mod's farmhouse area. Not even with a freshly started game. The only thing you'll probably need to do at most then is go around and redo the cover edging and re-finalize them so it forced the data to update.

I actually tried what you suggested earlier today after I first heard of the issue, and it failed. The only thing that worked for me when using the CK was completely deleting all of the navmeshes I had created. And I even tried a cell by cell delete. For whatever reason it did not work. i do not know if there is some type of navmesh master file or what now..but it all seemed to be linked in some way. Perhaps I just screwed this up from the start trying to avoid the navmesh bug to start with, but it all used to work peachy.

So instead of redoing so much navmesh, I took the route of trial and error with TESVSnip and eventually found a cell branch that seems to be the main cause of the ctds in the Deus Mons. It did not fix all of the CTDs on all of the doors, but at least made it usable. Only a couple of doors still crash if you use them a couple of times in a row, but they are rarely used so I called it good. Everything worked just fine before, navmesh and all. I do not believe I'll be busting my butt trying to get it any better. We'll see what happens after more people realize their player and location mods are screwed.

Should be interesting on steam over the next couple of days...seeing as how anything uploaded there has to be an esp, and esm files seem to be immune to this issue as long as esps aren't used to overwrite them...which was my case.

I used TESVSnip to chop out any NAVM record i could find, and chopped out the NAVI record as well. There was no navmesh data remaining. I spent a couple of hours rebuilding them, only to find I could have just left it alone. Same result. Crash.

The cover edging and finalization was needed though because between 1.4 and 1.5 my navmeshes lost a lot of cover data AND edge connection data. Which suggests to me that some of that data was corrupt and the CK filtered it out.

I still get a "navmesh" warning when opening the CK...