Weapon realism : Fallout: New Vegas

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:41 am

That's a rather interesting idea, but seems difficult to implement. Many of us would reload our empty mags between combat, which we'd probably have to do through the Pip-Boy, in which case what's to stop people from using the Pip-Boy to pause combat and reload? Hmm. They could be items you have to equip in the Pip-Boy, and then press the fire button to reload once you're out of the menu (which could end up being tedious), or make bringing up the menu not pause the game. I guess that's why I don't get paid to design video games.

Actually there are alot of different ways in which the player could signal the game that it's time to reload a clip or two; everything from Pip-boy to definable action key. I don't think this would be a limiting factor.

What I think does make adding magazines hard is that there is very little benefit to the player Other than realism, which isn't enough to get most features into modern games. The feature needs to be fun, or have a direct or in-direct fun outcome for it to exist. Otherwise it's just more hardship on the player, and as we have seen the game studios are not keen on adding features that make it harder (look at hardcoe more, which to FWE players of Fo3 sounds alot like kindergarden mode).

The problem with magazines are that they can prevent you from shooting your gun (even if you have bullets in your inventory), as when you run out of loaded clips you would have to switch to another weapon. (I really can't see them adding a reload-clip-during-battle option, it would be ridiculous to even try). Also the magazines would add alot more complexity to how much ammo you have Available to shoot with, and from my experience thats a pretty big jump from "You have X bullets to shoot", which is how most gamers expect guns to work. If we have to buy clips, load clips and deal with all the hardships that reloading can cause with Real guns, the Fun factor evaporates and I can just imagine the game makers turning away from such a concept.

Adding ammunition types and weapon mod kits all has a Fun element to it - find new ammos, trying differences between ammos, modding weapons every which way - all of that contributes to the Game. Reloading with magazine dependencies, while realistic, I think goes farther than Obsidian would be willing to reach.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:48 pm

That's a rather interesting idea, but seems difficult to implement. Many of us would reload our empty mags between combat, which we'd probably have to do through the Pip-Boy, in which case what's to stop people from using the Pip-Boy to pause combat and reload? Hmm. They could be items you have to equip in the Pip-Boy, and then press the fire button to reload once you're out of the menu (which could end up being tedious), or make bringing up the menu not pause the game. I guess that's why I don't get paid to design video games.

I suppose I'm also a bit harsh on Lincoln's Repeater. But I remember an interview with Todd Howard (I think) talking about the death animations, and explaining that they wanted repetitive actions to always be visually appealing. Since the Repeater is one of my favorite guns, I've fired an amazing number of rounds from it since having access to the ammo press in the Pitt, and it's certainly not visually appealing to me.

Interestingly, I went back to double check some production dates, and it seems the reload animation is actually correct. I was also wrong about ammunition, it seems Henry produced a .44 cartridge several years before S&W, so they were available before the end of the war.

Yep cartridge rounds were out before the end of the war. The south just didnt have the facilities to produced it. The north was a manufacturing super power you could say where the south was an agricultural farming country.

Not to get too far off topic though the south even had to use inferior materials because it was easier for them to make. Such as their cap and ball revolvers used a brass half frame where the union used a steel full frame. Personally I am wanting to get the confederate navy .44 caliber cap and ball revolver but theres alot of negative views about the brass frame revolvers being unsafe to fire. Way I see it is, no company would build a fire arm that was unsafe to fire. I am betting its a steel frame with a brass plating to make it look like a brass frame.

On the Lincoln repeater I have to say, I do like it but after I got better weapons I just avoided it. It was a good accurate weapon but being a gun nut the loading animation bugged me just as much as seeing magazines being refered to as clips. Its not a big deal but it just bugs me.

What I was thinking on the magazines is that if you have 5 magazines for your pistol you shot 3 rounds from one then reloaded that means you now have a 1 in 5 chance of picking up the clip that has 3 rounds fired from it. Not one of those things where you have to select, just one of those random scripted situations where as you use the magazines you got a 1 in 5 chance of picking up that magazine even if its empty. They could also throw in a "vest" type clothing you can buy which would reduce the chances, for example if you have 5 magazines you empty one and you shoot 3 shots out of the other there is now a 1 in 4 chance of picking up the magazine in a reload with 3 shots missing. The empty magazine would be put in another part of your "vest" that you wouldnt have a chance of picking up. But I would only support this stuff if it was in hardcoe mode only.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:21 am

I know I would love to have the option in hardcoe mode where at any moment your gun could have an issue or that theres a chance of you dropping the magazine and having to pick it back up when reloading in a fire fight. Would make the situation all the more dramatic coupled with the fact that the ammunition has weight now and you can only carry a limited amount.

i hate the fact that damage done by weapons is factored in by your weapon skill. i would rather the things you mentioned were affected by weapon skill like fumbling around with the clips and high recoil due to low gun skill. to me this would add more realism than anything else. also i dont know about bullets themselves having weight id rather whatever you carry them in like clips or ammo crate would have weight and allow you to store X amount of bullets in them. i dont know how it would work with energy weapon ammo but it always bothered me that you slap 1 Microfusion Cell into a laser rifle but get 24 shots out of it and loose 23 MF cells. it should be more like each cell gives X amount of shots for X weapon per cell for all the different energy weapons and ammo types. and the lower your weapon skill the faster it fatigues due to slamming parts cause your not used to using that type of weapon but when your skill is raised all reloading, aiming, cocking and whatever other animations are smoother and quicker.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:12 pm

Actually there are alot of different ways in which the player could signal the game that it's time to reload a clip or two; everything from Pip-boy to definable action key. I don't think this would be a limiting factor.

What I think does make adding magazines hard is that there is very little benefit to the player Other than realism, which isn't enough to get most features into modern games. The feature needs to be fun, or have a direct or in-direct fun outcome for it to exist. Otherwise it's just more hardship on the player, and as we have seen the game studios are not keen on adding features that make it harder (look at hardcoe more, which to FWE players of Fo3 sounds alot like kindergarden mode).

The problem with magazines are that they can prevent you from shooting your gun (even if you have bullets in your inventory), as when you run out of loaded clips you would have to switch to another weapon. (I really can't see them adding a reload-clip-during-battle option, it would be ridiculous to even try). Also the magazines would add alot more complexity to how much ammo you have Available to shoot with, and from my experience thats a pretty big jump from "You have X bullets to shoot", which is how most gamers expect guns to work. If we have to buy clips, load clips and deal with all the hardships that reloading can cause with Real guns, the Fun factor evaporates and I can just imagine the game makers turning away from such a concept.

Adding ammunition types and weapon mod kits all has a Fun element to it - find new ammos, trying differences between ammos, modding weapons every which way - all of that contributes to the Game. Reloading with magazine dependencies, while realistic, I think goes farther than Obsidian would be willing to reach.

It's certainly not for everyone, I agree. But FO3 really failed to capture the survival aspect of always having to scrounge for gun parts and ammunition. The repair system tried but ended up tedious in my opinion. I'm not advocating it for a sense of absolute realism, but it's an interesting idea that might be able to help better capture the need for scavenging. Though I admit there's an incredibly fine line between an enjoyable hardship and an exercise in tedium. I mean, some games give you a certain number of magazines, and reloading before it's empty causes you to simply throw away the unused ammunition - in some of those games it makes you think about whether or not you really want to reload now or wait; but in others it simply feels like a punishment. (The pacing of combat and cover systems seem to be the determining factors for me.)

My chief thought was that in FO3, you literally stop caring about ammo even a few hours into the game. You simply have piles and piles of ammunition, and even the more hard to come by rounds are rendered mundane with the ammo press. Some people wouldn't have it any other way, and I mean no insult to them. Perhaps simply giving ammo weight in hardcoe mode will change this, but I doubt it. Not to mention that needing to stop in the middle of a great sidequest because a game says I'm tired really ruins things for me, so maybe hardcoe mode isn't for me at all.

Rusty_S85: Google image search turned up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Rifle_Loading_pos.JPG of the rifle in question.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:52 am

I think it would really depend on where the weapon was found. My M1891/30 was made in 1939 it was refurbished between 1970 - 1979 and I picked it up in 2010 and the thing cycles perfectly zero jams and everything works fine. The refurbishment on this rifle was the stock was swaped out with a post war stock other than that all the mechanicals are the same from 1939 which went through all of WWII. So I think a pistol can survive 200 years and still work properly if it was taken care of.

My pistol only sat for about 5 years or so unused, was only 20 years old or so. It just never got cleaned and never got used, likely factors when you find a pistol in a safe that's been locked for two hundred years. I highly doubt you're going to find a weapon in New Vegas that would have been cared for the way your real life rifle has been. Most of the stuff the Courier finds is gonna be, at best, functional the way my pistol was. It works, it shoots things, it doesn't blow up in your face, but some things don't work quite right.

Now if the slide is acting weird and not catching on the last shot I would say have a gunsmith repair it or if you feel compeled to try it yourself replace the slide lock spring. Apparently the tension is so low or the spring could be broke that the force of the recoil spring is overcoming the spring holding the slide lock up and just bypassing it.

Someone stole the pistol about a year ago. Can't imagine it got them much money at a pawn shop, it wasn't exactly a powerful piece(Sometimes it took two mags to kill a possum with it :eek:

) and it liked to act wierd.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:59 am

It's certainly not for everyone, I agree. But FO3 really failed to capture the survival aspect of always having to scrounge for gun parts and ammunition. The repair system tried but ended up tedious in my opinion. I'm not advocating it for a sense of absolute realism, but it's an interesting idea that might be able to help better capture the need for scavenging. Though I admit there's an incredibly fine line between an enjoyable hardship and an exercise in tedium. I mean, some games give you a certain number of magazines, and reloading before it's empty causes you to simply throw away the unused ammunition - in some of those games it makes you think about whether or not you really want to reload now or wait; but in others it simply feels like a punishment. (The pacing of combat and cover systems seem to be the determining factors for me.)

My chief thought was that in FO3, you literally stop caring about ammo even a few hours into the game. You simply have piles and piles of ammunition, and even the more hard to come by rounds are rendered mundane with the ammo press. Some people wouldn't have it any other way, and I mean no insult to them. Perhaps simply giving ammo weight in hardcoe mode will change this, but I doubt it. Not to mention that needing to stop in the middle of a great sidequest because a game says I'm tired really ruins things for me, so maybe hardcoe mode isn't for me at all.

Rusty_S85: Google image search turned up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Rifle_Loading_pos.JPG of the rifle in question.

See now that is what you didnt see on the lincoln repeater. The magazine spring is extended and locked into the fore end the rounds are dropped in then the spring is released after swiveled back into place. Unless I didnt see the spring slide on the side of the lincoln repeater.

My pistol only sat for about 5 years or so unused, was only 20 years old or so. It just never got cleaned and never got used, likely factors when you find a pistol in a safe that's been locked for two hundred years. I highly doubt you're going to find a weapon in New Vegas that would have been cared for the way your real life rifle has been. Most of the stuff the Courier finds is gonna be, at best, functional the way my pistol was. It works, it shoots things, it doesn't blow up in your face, but some things don't work quite right.

Someone stole the pistol about a year ago. Can't imagine it got them much money at a pawn shop, it wasn't exactly a powerful piece(Sometimes it took two mags to kill a possum with it :eek:

) and it liked to act wierd.

Well mine was cared for better than some of the rifles in WWII but mine did see alot of action shooting thousands of rounds at a time before being cleaned when the fighting was over.

Yea its amazing how they steal what they can. Its also funny because that pistol might not be worth much but the CZ-82 pistol I am saving up on the side for I am complaining about the $310 price tag because online shops have it priced at $210 but by time I pay for the pistol, the $10 hand select fee, the shipping fee and then pay the gun shop the $40 fee for receiving the gun I am over $300. I have to check with a guy I know that sells guns out of his house that is FFL licensed and see if he can get me said pistol in pretty good shape for under $250.

But I do agree though some of the weapons should have more risks than others for being out in the desert. I know there are some weapons that are built to shoot full of sand (they tested one on tv once that he burried under sand and pulled it out and it emptied 3 magazines without a single jam) and there are others that are picky where alittle too much oil in the barrel could cause pressure increases that could potentially blow the barrel up.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:31 am

See now that is what you didnt see on the lincoln repeater. The magazine spring is extended and locked into the fore end the rounds are dropped in then the spring is released after swiveled back into place. Unless I didnt see the spring slide on the side of the lincoln repeater.

Fortunately, I have access to the game from this computer. You're right, it's missing the spring entirely.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:45 am

Well with all the talk and debate on dual wielding and knockback I figured I would bring up a point of gun realism that especially concerns me.

Most notably, I would like to know if guns will be realistic in these ways:

1. Loading
2. Reloading
3. Reloading on weapon switch
4. Shooting through walls

Let me elaborate. When you fire your gun empty, you need to reload it. Many guns do this in different ways. However, in the case of semi-automatic handguns and fully or semi-automatic sub-machine guns or assualt rifles, when you fire them empty you have to take out the spent magazine, put in a fresh one and then action it. However, if you fire a gun and do not fire it empty then choose to manually reload it, all you need to do is put in the fresh mag, and you don't need to action the weapon. Also, when switching weapons, there is no need to action the weapon once you switch to it. Many games do this and it annoys the crap out of me. Just because you switch to a new weapon, doesn't mean you need to action the weapon. To be honest I forget if Fallout does this or not, its been awhile since I last played. However I'm hoping they will make the game as realistic as possible, because having to action the weapon just because you pulled it out, or having to action it when you manually reload (if you don't fire it dry) may sound cool but that is not how its done in real life, and just takes up time you could be using to kill the deathclaw that is trying to eat your face.

I would also like to see realistic physics and damage thresholds. More specifically, the ability to fire through walls and other objects that cannot withstand a bullet. The ability to be able to shoot through thin walls, car doors or other weak objects would be nice. Although in a world as graphically intense and expansive as Fallout I understand if this cannot be done, so no big deal.

Any word on how this is gonna be in NV?

Discuss I guess

for the fortieth time the game is not meant to be realistic!!!!!!!!! :stare:

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:54 am

for the fortieth time the game is not meant to be realistic!!!!!!!!! :stare:

You have to eat and drink in hardcoe mode. It's at least attempting to stick to real-world conditions.
Indeed, starting with a realistic base and then adding a dash of SCIENCE! and a bit of wacky will make the latter two stand out so much more.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:39 pm

If bullet penetration was added it would be awesome, I know of countless times where my bullets would be deflected by plywood or some kind of thin, aluminum like metal.

Bullets (At least certain kinds like armor-piercing) should be able to punch a hole straight through certain materials and make the unlucky bastard behind that cover pay. :tops:

And with New Vegas allowing us to make new ammunition it would cool to have something like bullet penetration worked into the next game at least.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:07 am

I hope you can find heaps of unreliable, held-together-by-duct-tape weapons, and I hope they make them realistic by making them take forever to reload. I'd love to walk through the Mojave Wasteland with my trusty Hunting Rifle, which is a piece of [censored] and always gets me into trouble with its long reload times.
Bullet Penetration is a must, it's stupid not being able to shoot through stuff.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Bullet Penetration is a must, it's stupid not being able to shoot through stuff.

Exactly its just dumb not to be able to shoot through aluminum or other light metals, and the most obvious would be shooting through wood.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:53 pm

Honestly, I don't care. I don't know enough about guns (I have shot them, on target ranges, in Boy Scouts and later, but that's it) to notice any problems with animations, or loading times, or clip/magazine/whatever-you-want-to-call-them sizes, etc. And from a gameplay standpoint, I don't see any advantage to making things too long, "realistic", or annoying to do. I didn't have any problems with how FO3 worked. But, then, I also don't notice anything glaringly wrong about gun use in action movies & TV shows, so.....

/shrug

Just tossing my $0.02 into the ring.

Edit: oh, and the whole "we should be able to shoot through stuff!" thing..... not with this physics engine, we won't. I vaguely recall having this happen in the original CounterStrike, but haven't played any other games with it. Not used to it as a feature, so I don't miss it.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:20 pm

We're just saying if it was able to be added I wouldn't be one to complain, I'm not saying that in New Vegas there has to be some bullet penetration and bullet drop and all the little details related to shooting a real gun. (I wouldn't want all that stuff but bullet penetration would be nice and I think it'd be a cool add-on to an already great game)

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:25 am

Eh, I'm not one of those people who go 'THESE WEAPONS DONT WORK LIKE THIS. COD HAS IT RIGHT.' But as long as it doesnt go 'Miniguns with Scopes AND only weighs 1 pound' I couldnt care about realism. Fallout 3 basically met my criteria in terms of guns, it reloaded magazines, the guns didnt sound the same, and the were holsterable. Not much more I could really want, beyond a silenced sniper rifle (The one from the pitt is a scoped assault rifle, doesnt count)

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:43 am

Eh, I'm not one of those people who go 'THESE WEAPONS DONT WORK LIKE THIS. COD HAS IT RIGHT.' But as long as it doesnt go 'Miniguns with Scopes AND only weighs 1 pound' I couldnt care about realism. Fallout 3 basically met my criteria in terms of guns, it reloaded magazines, the guns didnt sound the same, and the were holsterable. Not much more I could really want, beyond a silenced sniper rifle (The one from the pitt is a scoped assault rifle, doesnt count)

Yep, a stealth weapon could be done too. The silenced 10mm pistol even if you killed someone in their room in rivet city everyone near by would become hostile. I hope that has been changed as well where you can do stealth kills on friendly/neutural/enemies without alerting everyone. Only weapon that really did that was the posion dart gun and that didnt work too good against dropping armored enemies quickly

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:15 pm

Yep, a stealth weapon could be done too. The silenced 10mm pistol even if you killed someone in their room in rivet city everyone near by would become hostile. I hope that has been changed as well where you can do stealth kills on friendly/neutural/enemies without alerting everyone. Only weapon that really did that was the posion dart gun and that didnt work too good against dropping armored enemies quickly

Hehehe, Well I wouldnt know. I play on Very Easy because the combat aspect makes me bored. So I basically just want the combat to be over with quick so I can go back to scaving xD. I played it on Normal once, and I got sick of all the combat :laugh:

Edit- I do agree though, they should fix the undetected kill system.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:31 am

It never made any sense to have a silenced weapon and be hidden when you got a kill yet everyone in the general vicinity always knew you killed someone and went ape-[censored] trying to kill you after you did it.

I could never play a stealthy character because of that, sometimes you just want to assassinate random citizens of Megaton, Am I right? :tops:

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:02 pm

u r uber right

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:11 pm

Thing is though to be accurate to real life with pistols the last shot fire the slide would be locked all the way back. You slide a magazine in (not clip) the bottom of the pistol once its in you pull a slide lever down on the side to release the slide. The slide slides forward chambering the first round and its ready to go.

Personally I say screw that because that would be extra animation to do not to mention it doesnt really change the story. Just like the graphics doesnt change the story.

^This guy^ is right about the reload stuff. As for realistic damage, if you watch some of the more recent gameplay, guns seem to do a lot more damage than they used to. Against un-armored opponents, guns kill in just a couple hits. That seems relatively fair.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:06 am

Hehehe, Well I wouldnt know. I play on Very Easy because the combat aspect makes me bored. So I basically just want the combat to be over with quick so I can go back to scaving xD. I played it on Normal once, and I got sick of all the combat :laugh:

Edit- I do agree though, they should fix the undetected kill system.

I play on normal with the DLC`s an that super mutant overlord, normal is hard enough for me.

It never made any sense to have a silenced weapon and be hidden when you got a kill yet everyone in the general vicinity always knew you killed someone and went ape-[censored] trying to kill you after you did it.

I could never play a stealthy character because of that, sometimes you just want to assassinate random citizens of Megaton, Am I right? :tops:

lol Yep but now that I got the mr sandman perk on my evilest of evil play throughs I pretty much wiped rivet city out, and I went to the common room in megaton and killed one need to head back and silent kill another one I try to do one murder a night. That cultist should consider himself lucky because I already bagged my quota in megaton by using the sandman perk on the priest, gary and his daughter, and that other guy that runs the clothing store.

But I dont even play a stealthy character anymore because you can only kill them when their asleep cause any gun shot even silenced alerts everyone. I know I looted the doctor at rivet city (I dont see why he is a needed character and is immune to being killed) and he woke up and caught me I ran away then he turned hostile hitting me with a sledge hammer. A security officer saw did jack [censored]. But the moment I pulled out my gauss rifle and blasted him in the head and knocked him out next thing I know the security guard goes ape[censored] shooting me for defending myself so I had to splatter their brains and skull across the hallway before I looted their body and ran.

From the sounds of the civilians coming to your aid when you get attacked by thugs it makes me think that we might see a better system this go around where we get are attacked by a friendly who turned hostile for stealing from them but the neturals didnt see you steal but you kill them in defense they will ignore it.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:46 pm

^This guy^ is right about the reload stuff. As for realistic damage, if you watch some of the more recent gameplay, guns seem to do a lot more damage than they used to. Against un-armored opponents, guns kill in just a couple hits. That seems relatively fair.

Thank goodness!

Who else is tired of a guy with no helmet/armor on their head taking a 3 round burst with of 5.56mm to the face and walking it off like nothing happened?

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:14 pm

Thank goodness!

Who else is tired of a guy with no helmet/armor on their head taking a 3 round burst with of 5.56mm to the face and walking it off like nothing happened?

Or what about the plain super mutants taking a tribeam laser rifle blast to the face and it takes 4 hits before the grab their face and their head becomes cripled lol.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:00 am

Or what about the plain super mutants taking a tribeam laser rifle blast to the face and it takes 4 hits before the grab their face and their head becomes cripled lol.

I remember those Muties who can take a whole lot of bullets to the face before their faces become crippled, Another thing how exactly does your face become "crippled"? lol

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:13 pm

I remember those Muties who can take a whole lot of bullets to the face before their faces become crippled, Another thing how exactly does your face become "crippled"? lol

lol I have no idea, but I always found it funny how you can unload magazine after magazine into the head of a super mutant and hes not wearing a helmet but just wont [censored] die lol. The worlds worse is the overlord, it was me two citadel sentry guns and two power armor clad soldiers and he took out the two soldiers crippled my leg and took out the sentry gun even though two cars blew up near him and I finally took him out with my one and only nuka grenade. I was thinking [censored] man this isnt funny wasting half your ammunition just to take down one supermutant which is like a damn armored tank.