What does exactly mean "dumbed down"? : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 pm

What in the world does npc immersion mean? The immersion is the player's.

I think they meant "No immersion BECAUSE of the NPCs"

Think being the leader of a guild, but members still talk to you like you just joined.
Being Dragonborn, but 11 year olds openly insult you.
Traveling along the road in armor made from the essence of daedra lords or the bones of dragons, enchanted weapons glowing with the souls of your vanquished enemies, only to be mugged by a "thief" wearing rags and wielding a rusty dagger.

Those things are kind of immersion breaking.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:32 am

Theres two different reasons people give for the game being dumbed down
1 is its having departed from traditional RPG mechanics. Thats tosh IMO. D&D and other traditional RPGs didn't require much intelligence to understand the rules systems although it did require time and a lot of reading to become familiar wirth them
2nd is less complexity in the game world itself. Very few choices having serious consequences, no conflicts between different factions except between the Stormcloaks and Imperials etc. I feel theres some validity to this although its exaggerated. Oblivion had no conflict between factions and few quests with serious choices and consequences. MW had a little but not much more.

~~I don't care about first~~(I am not very knowledgeable about rulesets. I think leveling is better in Skyrim though.). I care about second. Yes, Oblivion suffered from linear quests too. It is the journal design mostly. In Morrowind, you do what you want and it works. In Oblivion and Skyrim, journal works like a mission log. You have to do what it says, or there is the illusion of it which is backed up with no choice. In Morrowind, there was a faction disposition matrix, the choices and consequences were tied to a system. This is not there in Oblivion and Skyrim. I don't think I'm exaggerating, we had something, I hoped it would be improved but it was removed completely and didn't come back, except Stormcloaks and Imperials etc. So Forsworn conspiracy: major decisions, no consequences or benefits. I am trying to help people, next thing I know I am in some Daedra quest, being forced to do things my characters wouldn't.

Here is my recipe: Get rid of essentials and level scaling, fix the journal, increase quest solutions and add some world mechanics so things can have consequences, be dynamic and realistic. I don't ask for much. :smile:

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:45 am

From what I read in this forum some players claim that the TES series was "dumbed down" to appeal to wider public. But aren't these same people overlooking the fact that with evolution everything tends to get easier?

Installing a game on your PC back in the 90's was an herculean task. You had to set all the parameters like DMA values to sound and video among other things. Sometimes it took hours to just get the game running if you didn't know what a DMA was. Today the game basically installs itself.

Programing your VCR to record a TV show when you were away from home was almost as complicated as operating the Large Hadron Collider. Today we can do the same task with the press of a button.

Could we say these things were "dumbed down"? Most certainly, but is this bad? Of course not, it takes away the tadious tasks and leaves only the good parts like actually playing your game or watching your favorite TV Show.

That's how I see the new leveling system in Skyrim. You don't have to fiddle with a screen full of stats and numbers to get the best out of your character. You just use the skills you want to get better at and the system takes care of the rest leaving you the good part that is using those skills.

I never could get into D&D based games like Neverwinter Nights because the sheer amount of numbers and calculations and rules you need to take into account to realize if your build is correct is so overwhelming.

In Skyrim you just start with a clean sheet, no classes, no attributes, no restraints. What you do and what feels natural to you is what you're gonna get better at and if you want to force your character into a certain "class" you just use the skills of that "class". I think more RPGs should learn from this and use this concept from now on because that's evolution.

So keep in mind that if things weren't evolving constantly we would still be living in caves because using a lighter to start a fire is nothing more than the two sticks technique "dumbed down".

I agree 100% !

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:17 am

It's not about complexity or difficulty, it's about lack of control. Some people prefer controlling every aspect of their character, min-maxing every stat. That's fun for them.

Others want to just pick up a sword and kill things. That's fun for them.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Pfft are you serious?

Alright, Dumbed down is when you remove things instead of improving them. Dumbed down is when you take off options and do not replace what was lost. Dumbed down is when you take Features that where never hard in the first place, IT DOES NOT TAKE A GENIUS TO PLAY the TES series, but you take away features and simplify them for -no- reason.

Streamlining is making the Complexity of A easier to do in the end result Making Value B doing the SAME THING that A does but without losing the end result

In Skyrim that isn't so, you are barred from having any meaningul change to your character, everyone internally is a carbon copy of each other and the aspects of the game like dialoge, questline, story are all reduced in detail NOT COMPLEXITY, DETAIL so people can "rollplay" without batting a second look at whats going on.

Thats Dumbing down, people didn't ask for it to be dumbed down, Dumbed down is not a selling point, BETHESDA made the descison to "dumb it down" not the players who played and most certainly not the "was a Phantom audience before Skyrims release" folk.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:31 am

I don't think it is "dumbed down" simply because they took large lists of numbers out of the game. Leveling up in Oblivion was not fun. It was a huge pain if you wanted to create a great character. Often times you had to exploit the game to get certain stats to 100. Skyrim is not for min-maxers, and I think it is an improvement. While I enjoyed Oblivion, I was constantly worried about accidently leveling up a minor skill which bumbed me up a level and missing out on the largest attribute bonus possible. I don't have to do that in Skyrim, I can just play as I want with No planning (well, minimal compared to Oblivion). I will agree that there is some depth missing from Skyrim compared to other TES games, but IMO this is because the game is so HUGE. I am level 42 and still have like 100 quests to complete. I think that the people who feel the game is "dumbed down" are not going to fare well in the future. Games have been attempting to remove as many menus and stat screens as possible for a long time, to create better immersion and storytelling...if you are really so concerned with your stats and every aspect of the game, I recommend the Sims...toodles

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:16 am

why does humanity judge everything based on how much easier it makes something? this is a game. interactive. doing stuff and being challenged is the whole damn appeal... or it was before the world decided doing anything for yourself was bad. a little effort can make the most menial of tasks seem so much more rewarding you know.

as people have stated, old RPG mechanics werent really too much for anyone to handle.... so why do they keep getting stripped down? for those of us who had no problem playing them, what the hell is the advantage of making something we already understand fully easier to understand? we get nothing from it, while losing a lot from the missing features.

and evolution does not make everything easier. evolution makes you better prepared for one thing and less prepared for another. its an overall flat change, not an improvement. we can enjoy a wealth of delicious meats, but can no longer eat them raw without a good chance of illness. we can kill things with the pull of a trigger, but put us fist to fist with a bear and we get curbstomped. that is evolution. skyrim is more along the lines of a great hunter rising to wealth and gluttony and becoming a fat useless spoiled [censored]. things are easier for him, but he isnt exactly better himself.

other than to say the word complex is starting to make my cereal soggy , to you i say what a wonderful sig

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:55 am

From what I read in this forum some players claim that the TES series was "dumbed down" to appeal to wider public. But aren't these same people overlooking the fact that with evolution everything tends to get easier?

Baldur's Gate 2 was more complex than its predecessor. Each of the Ultima series up through 7 increased the complexity of gameplay. The Wizardry series increased complexity after the 4th release. And if you want to look at modern games, the Total War series has increased both the complexity of battle options and diplomacy with each successive title. Your generality doesn't hold. It really just depends on the game in question.

Installing a game on your PC back in the 90's was an herculean task. You had to set all the parameters like DMA values to sound and video among other things. Sometimes it took hours to just get the game running if you didn't know what a DMA was. Today the game basically installs itself.

If you had experience of playing 90's games, I'm surprised you don't remember where you simply chose one of 3 or 4 sound system defaults (SoundBlaster, Adlib, etc), and ran the game. The standard DMA was *always* pre-chosen. You could change it if you wished, but there was no reason to do so. There was in fact a lot less complexity involved than today: look at Skyrim's graphical and audio options. Dozens of options to select from. You've just made the opposite point to the one you wanted.

And in any case, one person's "dumbed down" game is the game that another person really enjoys. Yes, Skyrim offers less gameplay in some respects than its predecessors, but if that's exactly what somebody else wants, I don't see what the whole argument is about. It's dumbed down for some, not for others. There's no uniform only-one-way-to-view-things here, people. Everybody is entitled to their opinion--and everybody is correct on this point. No need to correct those who differ from you, when they're just as right. And if their sometimes smug assertions annoy you...? Why do the same?

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm

"Dumbed down" means that if the current TES game is not an alternate reality for some of the people on this board they're going to become suicidal again because their life svcks. These kind of people don't play games for the fun of it. These people play games in order to escape their own problems here in reality.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:06 am

I don't think it is "dumbed down" simply because they took large lists of numbers out of the game. Leveling up in Oblivion was not fun. It was a huge pain if you wanted to create a great character. Often times you had to exploit the game to get certain stats to 100. Skyrim is not for min-maxers, and I think it is an improvement. While I enjoyed Oblivion, I was constantly worried about accidently leveling up a minor skill which bumbed me up a level and missing out on the largest attribute bonus possible. I don't have to do that in Skyrim, I can just play as I want with No planning (well, minimal compared to Oblivion). I will agree that there is some depth missing from Skyrim compared to other TES games, but IMO this is because the game is so HUGE. I am level 42 and still have like 100 quests to complete. I think that the people who feel the game is "dumbed down" are not going to fare well in the future. Games have been attempting to remove as many menus and stat screens as possible for a long time, to create better immersion and storytelling...if you are really so concerned with your stats and every aspect of the game, I recommend the Sims...toodles

Pretty much, that's the way games are nowadays and there's no going back, actually they tend to get even more streamlined. Even Civilization V, one of most complex series out there, had a lot of simplified features compared to previous iterations.

Some ppl might not like it but they can't criticize developers for going with the flow because that's where money is. Those players either adapt or quit playing altogether.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:41 pm

So keep in mind that if things weren't evolving constantly we would still be living in caves because using a lighter to start a fire is nothing more than the two sticks technique "dumbed down".

/facepalm

Less complexity isn't the same as easier.

Less options isn't the same as easier.

I suggest you go into politics and use your stupid anologies there because it seems like you purposely spin things a certain way or maybe you really are just that.... welll dense.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:53 am

The phrase means "I don't ike this feature."

I think what you mean is *wheres that feature gone*

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:25 pm

Old folk tend to be hard headed. Remember lot of these Morrowind gamers played hardcoe 10+ years ago which means they have aged 10+++++ years since.

It's like when you go up to your grandfather on Thanksgiving and tell him how cool the internet is and he gives you a life story of how he walked to school for 2 miles back in the day and don't need the internet.. same concept with the old Morrowind gamers.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:59 am

^ignoRANT....

Mock all you want :glare:

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Old folk tend to be hard headed. Remember lot of these Morrowind gamers played hardcoe 10+ years ago which means they have aged 10+++++ years since.

It's like when you go up to your grandfather on Thanksgiving and tell him how cool the internet is and he gives you a life story of how he walked to school for 2 miles back in the day and don't need the internet.. same concept with the old Morrowind gamers.

This.

People don't like changes. It's the human nature.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:27 pm

I don't think the gameplay was dumbed down, it was streamlined, and redundancies were removed.

The real problem with Skyrim being shallow is the way that quests all expect you to simply go along with whatever the writers are spoonfeeding you without giving you any ability to chose the outcome.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Old folk tend to be hard headed.

Kids always say that

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:41 pm

I think another reason things have changed, is, yes, gamers have gotten older, but (at least in my situation) as I have gotten older, I have also lost the ability to sit down and play a game for 5, 6, 10 hours a day. Other responsibilities have cropped up (woe to being an advlt) to the point that, if I get to play for a couple hours at night after the family has gone to bed, I don't want to spend half my time looking at a stat sheet or trying to decide if 10% crit dmg is better than bleed dmg (because the perks are too limited). I want a game i can jump into and feel like I accomplished something. Skyrim is great because I don't have to worry about min maxing or sticking to a strict perk list because I want the most BA, Godlike character...it gives you the freedom to explore and is generally forgiving to those who do not have a concrete plan for their character...

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:44 am

Well, I know a lot of people who are really pissed they didn't get a Morrowind or Daggerfall 2.0

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:52 pm

decrease of features...

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:40 pm

Well, I know a lot of people who are really pissed they didn't get a Morrowind or Daggerfall 2.0

It's their fault really because this game was never advertised as being such a thing.

Anyone who played five minutes of Oblivion knew where this was going.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:09 pm

Going from Carl Sagan's Cosmos show level to Teletubbies and Dora the Explorer one in order to make the game more accessible for stupid kids whose parents provide the biggest chunk of income.

Could not of been said any better

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:42 pm

RPGeezers liked spending a great deal of time in the Char creation screen to them that was part of the game.A fair chunk of people did not.Any attempt to bridge that gap will cause friction.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:17 am

And you would be part of the wider audience that the "Dumbed down" game is looking to appeal to since you did not enjoy that part of the game - so you may see it as a good thing but to those that play this type of game mainly because of the sheer amount of numbers and calcualtions and rules you need to take into account will definitely not see it that way as to them it is ruining what they looked for in the game so that it appeals to a wider audience -- YOu have to remember that what you consider "Leaving only the "good part" could also be regarded by others as removing the BEST part of the game and the main reason they enjoy the game leaving only the watered down hollow shell of what the game could be !

I would say those people who love number crunching can:

A. play table-top RPGs that still have heavy stats in them, or live action roleplay
B. evolve with the TES series and go with the flow, embracing the new way of doing things
C. quit playing TES games altogether

I would hope that numbers people would just evolve along with the series. Skyrim is still great fun for me and I love stats and all that stuff. Missing out on them is not a big deal to me and I think the game plays better without them. It's more immersive.

OK but how many CRPGs like that were launched in the last year? They are becoming rarer and rarer and the tendency is that they will vanish at some point because there are not enough audience out there to make these games profitable. So companies adapt or evolve like Bethesda is doing.

Yep.

That's because you're looking for a different experience than me in RPGs. I play RPGs for the immersion factor. Having to stop the game every time I level up to distribute points in several stats is immersion breaking for me.

In real life I get stronger if I constantly lift weight, I don't need to put numeric values into some stat to make me stronger. If I run everyday I get faster. If I shoot a gun constatly my aim will improve.

That's immersion, that's natural and that's what Bethesda achieved with Skyrim.

Exactly.

This.

People don't like changes. It's the human nature.

This too. Can't believe I quoted you three times, but you got some good points. Cheers.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:45 pm

Pretty much, that's the way games are nowadays and there's no going back, actually they tend to get even more streamlined. Even Civilization V, one of most complex series out there, had a lot of simplified features compared to previous iterations.

Some ppl might not like it but they can't criticize developers for going with the flow because that's where money is. Those players either adapt or quit playing altogether.

If you think the Civilization series was complex, then you may not have ever stepped into an F-16CJ while on a mission during "Operation Iron Fortress".

For the uninitiated, I'm referring to "Falcon 4.0: Allied Force". The Falcon series is not for the faint of heart, for it is the epitome of complex gaming.