Companions = Fighter's Guild

Anyway, I agree though. It seems very clear that Bethesda was hoping that we would get sidetracked by the radiant quests. For instance, the main quest asks you to go talk to Brynolf in Riften. When you talk to him, he says he has a job for you, and I think it's pretty clear the Beth thought we would all go off and work for him before getting back to the MQ. Same with the mages guild.

The companions are a perfect example. You you beeline through the story quests, you finish VERY quickly. However, if you get sidetracked and do all the radiant quests that the Circle have for you, it will take you forever.
This is a design flaw. I don't think it will happen again.

If you are referring to the fact that the Companion's quest line is 7 (seven) quests long, and the College's quest line is slightly longer (though with more side quests that aren't rinse-and-repeat), then I do not have an answer to you.

However, I suppose this is yet another chance for me to voice my displeasure that a story quest + a radiant quest = full membership as a full-fledged member in the most legendary warrior guild in Tamriel, with the same pattern to becoming a Shapeshifter -- seriously, a radiant quest after joining, you are supposedly good enough to join the Circle, which is the group of Kodlak's most trusted members. I wish life was that easy.
You shouldn't even get to become Harbinger; You and the rest of the Companions should vote, with your vote breaking the tie between Vilkas and Aela.
A good idea for this would be forced purification of all Circle members if you choose Vilkas or forced joining with beast blood for all members (even the lesser ones).

The College is slightly better, but only because the 'Master Spells' quests, the Arniel's Endeavor line, and the slightly longer quest line.
Still a shame that you join the College, learn how to produce the weakest ward and apparently you are all set to take up the mantle as Arch-Mage.
Mirabelle should not have been killed and should have been made Arch-Mage, or Tolfdir in the case that Mirabelle just had to be killed off.

A response to those who say: "TES games are exactly that and if you don't like it do something else." I do like TES. That's why I'm here.

The question I ask is: since Beth has proven that it can write entertaining, engaging storylines (my favorite example is Oblivion's epic DB quest line), why did they fail to at least match that quality in Skyrim? Perhaps the most reasonable answer offered among the above posts is that Beth put too much faith/resources in their radiant quest system and too little in old-fashion hand-crafted storytelling. Or maybe they lost some key talent in that area. I don't think it was a cynical attempt to go mass-market with a flavorless product.

In any case, I support Beth and TES and I will continue to patronize both, but I really truly ask that they learn from this and do better.

Or... maybe all of that is subjective... I don't have any problems with the storylines in Skyrim. They are just fine.

I don't think anybody is suggesting anything as simple as: less detail = more imagination = better. There's a delicate balancing act between, on the one hand, providing enough of a story to get the player interested and making them feel like the quests are worth doing; and, on the other hand, not providing too much detail so that the player feels like the game is restricting the sorts of characters one can create.

I tend to agree that many of Skyrim's quests are somewhat banol and uninspired, but I don't think the solution is necessarily to add more dialogue/text, because that may tip the balance too far in the other direction.

In what alternate universe is this true? Unless you are talking about board games, I have never seen a computer/console game that could not use a patch or two (except maybe for Zork!)

...once upon a time we don't have even the net where everyone can express his opinion -hopefully in a constructive manner - or why not simply complaining/moaning about what/who/everything he/she don't like...

Beth should never have released this game..because you said this,right ? instead i'm glad and grateful to them for doin' that.

Even if the game have his flaws (lack of depth/choices above all) in my opinion its a masterpiece.

A "rough diamond" perhaps, but still a diamond .

If only it was a diamond, but to me it's more like a medium-res .jpg reproduction of a good painting. Quite pretty at a glance, but the closer you look, the more flaws and impurities you'll see, until you get to the point where you're curious why you found it pretty to begin with.

Considering Skyrim is a single-player game, I find it rather depressing that the depth is crap, the story is crap, the quests are occasionally good and occasionally crap, the combat is fine initially but gets very trivial later on, the dialogue is mostly horrible, the voice art is hit and miss and much too repetitive, the builds are hugely similar, the magic is crap, the AI is as dumb as ever, the UI is complete garbage...

What exactly is supposed to produce the same single-player replay value that previous titles did? Besides updated graphics, what the heck is actually supposed to be improved in Skyrim? There are plenty of signs that the developer crew had good ideas, but those were implemented half-assed at best.

All in all, I see a few small steps forward and so many more steps towards mindless Call of Duty style "appeal to the masses" entertainment.

I found that the side stories were better then the actual Guild, and main ones, like the abandoned Prision one, the one about the shadowed necromancer who let his dark urges corrupt him, Sapphires story, of her being abducted and....All in all I say the side stories were EXCELLENT.

So let me get this straight.. The complaining about Skyrim only exists because people have become more focal and show that on ze thing called the internets...

Well I agreed, at first...
I always hated the TES leveling system. Then this game came out..
If any of you actually know the comic Thorgal, one will immediately understand what attracted me to this particular TES game in the first place.
And besides the Nordic setting... the leveling system has been "streamlined" YEEEH
That was the first week.
Than I already noticed that the guilds were short, the MQ was short and uninspired, there was a lot of repeating enemies.. etc.. but hell look at the setting..
Two weeks in.. Bored to hell.
Oblivion, even though I hated it leveling wise (both in enemies and leveling in general) gave me more enjoyment..
In other words: even though I used to be someone who hated the level system in TES and was glad they nerfed ... I feel annoyed.
Why... Instead of an RPG TES with a questionable leveling system.... it has become a tourism game..
Look at how beautiful our province is... well it is... but after a while it certainly gets dull.

That's right it is your opinion and many others as well, the number of people complaining about it, compared to older TES games... however is staggering.
Beth also made promises which they didn't keep.
Let me explain:
I love the new engine... however:
- Guild quests are bland and short.. You don't have a choice.. You dislike werewolfs but you want to be in the companions. Tough luck.
- You Like thievery... well you also have to pray to a daedra
- IE lack of choice and...... all guilds are extremely short..
- Lack of recognition... I am the dragonborn, just saved the world... no-one acknowledges this..
Etc. etc..

Oblivion gave me lengthy, interesting quests...even though I still hate the leveling system.
More and varied enemies, lengthy quest and sidequestlines.. etc.. etc..

Ehhh nope:
-Nerfed skills
-Leveling has also been nerfed (which I actually appreciate but I can understand the nay sayers who are considered old-timers)
-Short both MQ and SQ quest lines
-Buggy..
-Looks over content...
and I could go on for a while....
Summarizing: I loved the game but began to loath it more and more.
A rough diamond would be a game, I disliked at first but for all its flaws would appreciate more and more...

Yeah...I finally finished the main quest and was like "Oh theres no way THIS can be the final boss. I mean I didnt even do the majority of the damage, three people ive never seen before did..."

The quests to me are no worse than the last 2 elder scrolls games I have played/ (morrowind and oblivion)

It's not a myth. I'd never played an Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim, but I've played video games since the Atari 2600/Commodore 64 era and have been playing D&D off and on since 1992 (20 years! Holy poo!)... but most video game RPGs bore the ever living poo out of me! The last exciting one I played was Diablo 2 for PC. That goes back years and years ago. I love D&D (and the fantasy genre) and I love open world video games... so imagine my absolute surprise when I saw 11 minutes of game footage from Skyrim. An open world, open class, visually stunning fantasy RPG game for my home console. I was sold that very instant. I preordered the game and totally had it completely paid off several months before release... went to a midnight release party... and took it home and played it that first night for about 8 hours until I couldn't stay awake any longer.

I am the broader audience. And here we are, almost 6 months later, and I'm still playing. I've played a couple other games sparingly in the meantime, but Skyrim's been my primary game this entire time. I see what you're saying about "the people who never cared before," but Bethesda is a business. The goal of a business is to make money. You make more money when you widen the market. Apple could have stuck making computers for a smaller market of people who didn't necessarily like PCs... but they branched out... now there's Apple TV, iPods, iPads, iPhones, etc.... and the audience is huge. They're making lots of money because that was their goal all along... not just catering to their smaller base. You're not being marginalized. You're being asked to grow and be a part of something bigger. Skyrim is flipping awesome... but maybe it's not when you're constantly comparing it to the days of yesteryear.

Skyrims shallow. They made a big world, then made a broken system, with a pathetic main quest, with a villain less threatening than My little Pony.
Because they were lazy. Instead of giving you true freedom they forced their own stupid linear idea of how you should play on you.
All because of keeping to a gimmicky release date, instead of making the game properly.

If they'd actually put some effort into the quests, written them properly, let you make your own choices, let you make a proper impact on the world, the game would be a lot better.
Instead, whatever you do, nothing or barely anything changes.
They won't let you kill who you want, destroy who you want, side with who you want.

There are parts of skyrim that resemble free to play games, in their shallowness. Fine on F2P games, but not on something you spend money one.

You've said the magical words above..."to me"

Frankly,i think that whatever would be my answer you will remain with your opinion -on which i disagree on some point of course,but i have to say that i agree partially on some other.

The main is the lack of depth and choices/consequences.

For the rest i think that Bethesda put all their energies to please everyone of their fans; to those who you call " Cod masses" to the "aficionados".

But sometimes hard work its not well rewarded or understood sadly



You've misunderstood unfortunately; i suggest you to read better what i've wrote above

its the way those "complaining" are expressed sometimes here on which i don't agree and i heavily criticize




i don't know this comic,sorry,but your point its clear enough.
I can tell you this from my point of view :

-the setting its extraordinary and varied,we have even swamps and a beautiful tundra,we have the Rift "autumnal" area,we have Falkreath with forest,the Reach with rocks and the North with glaciers,aurora borealis etc.

-the guilds aren't "short" -its the way there were planned that is "wrong" for someone. In fact you have tons of radiant quests and even interesting side quests - even in Mages Guild that is the most "hated" by someone in that regard

-the main quest is on par if not better than the oblivion one,it depends even if you like more dragons or oblivion gates

-repetitive enemies ? i agree partially on that, and i've already explained the reasons here if i'm not wrong; i can only say that having dragons was a dream for most in the past,now we have even someone who's annoyed by their presence




I don't think that many others have my same opinion on something,its very difficult agree on "all" with someone you know

however the reason of this is simple:

more audience = more complaints
more audience with the net = more complaints
more competition in the game industry in this "genre" = more complaints
nostalgic people like you that have played others tes games and wants older features = more complaints


its called marketing; even other doin' the same.

I bet that 99% of the guys that have worked at the product would have give their right arm to keep all the promises made by "someone"


the main problem is that you've played too much Oblivion perhaps - and enjoyed it of course.

All of the above are strictly choices of the developers - sometimes to make the product "more appealing to the masses" or to simply improve the game -at least in their opinion.

Its difficult doin' the same thing -because Skyrim its the same soup with some new ingredients after all - find new technical challenges and please all at the same time,you know.




I've said in my opinion its a "rough diamond".

This could means too much for someone,too little for others; and i was aware of that in first place.


to Zxhraivretiaiel

Skyrim lacks depth,choices and consequences,as i've said many times.

But its the way Tes series is that not allow "a proper impact on the world" with "credible consequences" unfortunately. 'cause it would mean having an "end" in a free game world like this.

Don't make the mistake to compare it to FnV. The last is a "real" Rpg developed by others (obsidian)

I have prayed and hoped until 11/11/11 to have that depth -or at least some of it - in Skyrim,but we all know how its ended..

at the end "linearity" and "simplicity" pays more than "depth",and mr. Howard is right again.

Its often less that the plots are bad, and more than they have absolutely no sense of completion or resolution. I mean, the mage's university quests seem like they built up to something really important and...then nothing. The ending was confusing.

I dunno..It feels more like the entire game was foreshadowing..some other game not yet released. Honestly, they feel like stores *I* would write. I tend to have the following pattern: I svck at writing beginnings. The middles are always fantastic. The ending is just as poor as the beginning.

For whatever reason, these quests felt as if they didnt end, they just kinda wandered off into something. It always felt like there was supposed to be one more final quest, thati t was merely one quest from ultimate resolution, but that quest never manifested.

...Also how many times am I going to have to find that alembic. At least now I know how to prounounce "alembic."

Here's an idea. Crack open the creation kit, write a nice story that isn't 'banol', and share it with us.

If you are on console, buy the PC version and write us a real storyline.

Or, white a legitimate treatment of a story arc and team up with a modder to help you.

I have to admit, there's not much else to do in games these days besides take over everything. That goes for almost ALL RPGs nowadays.

But how fun would it be if they gave you meaningless quests with agreat story, but you remain a farmer all your life?

I get your point, but even in Morrowind I wasn't deluded enough to expect high drama. There was nothing shocking there either. Oh well. I guess that's what movies are for.

I perfectly understood what you meant.. I even said that people have become more focal..
No need to be sorry it is a European comic and mostly limited to France, Belgium and Holland as far as popularity is concerned..
(It's about a Viking who is basically an Alien or a descendant from Atalantis.. )
The guild quests are short and this is a general critique. The environment is nice.. but for most part that is all Skyrim does extremely well.
The radiant quests are not an expansion to guild questlines.. They are artificial extensions.. Hell if you visited nearly all locations.. You will see the same books and locations creep up...
Guild quests in previous TES games were at least twice as long, offered more ambiguity.. (how one could finish quests and take a different aproach)
And the "radiant quests" at least were more varied.. than the fetch this object x at location y or kill generic person x at location y quests.

Fact: I hated the oblivion gates...
Opinion: One questline is better than the other..
However: Oblivion did acknowledge you finished the MQ... no more gates of oblivion, people acknowledge you being the hero. A MQ reward in the form of great armor... etc..
Dragons are great.. The fact that they still spawn after finishing the MQ should be optional. Plot-wise it is completely illogical.. It is Broken Steel (FO3) all over again.
I completely obliterated the enclave.. yet they still respawn everywhere...
That combined with the fact that no NPC even bothers to congratulate me ... points to... The story in Skyrim is pointless.

Fallacy: In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is usually an improper argumentation in reasoning often resulting in a misconception or presumption. Literally, a fallacy is "an error in reasoning that renders an argument logically invalid".

Your arguments are even insulting to some point:
Either there are complaints because there are more people playing the game.. Which could be countered with percentages...
or people are complaining because more people have connection to the internet is a) numerically insignificant.
b )simply is not true..
It would be true if a product would be as bad as its predecessor...
However your very final comment about nostalgia is condescending and insulting.
So the problem is that I played a game which mechanisms I hate but which story I like.. Pray tell how does this argument fly..
I played Oblivion twice.. I detest the leveling, the leveled enemies and gear... but I like the quests.. why there is depth, there is challenge.. etc..
Now Skyrim: Pretty pictures.., a leveling system I can actually like but guild quests I can finish within a day.., without any branching...
I dislike the stories in Skyrim because: They are cliched.. don't have choices, are morally black/white etc..
Is it because I played too much Oblivion...No it is because I know what storytelling in an RPG should be..
Simplifying, even elements I like... like the leveling system, is not always applying to the masses..
Examples:
games:
GTA4: Complex story, realism less freeroam.. ie not giving in to demands..
Red Dead Redemption: Same story..
AC II: more depth, more complex story..extra mechanics..
Movies:
The dark knight: Dark brooding, morally complex..
etc.. etc..

No... it's the same soup... It looks great... but they forgot to add salt.. And I don't ask for the same old thing... I want to see depth and not some kind of bland exploration simulator..
The engine even has the same problems as its predecessor..

Instead i'm convinced that you're still misunderstanding what i'm said.


What is a general critique ? can you explain this better ? for me it means nothing. Nothing can be generalized. Or for "general" you mean a bunch of people -or you - complaining on a forum ? the guild seems short because they're different and we have dozens of radiant quests not well implemented in the dynamics with main plot

Instead i think that they could been complementary to guild quest;its some players rushing approach doin' those guild that is "artificial" perhaps,or the decision of Bethesda of "not forcing" to do those quests to advance in guild ranks


Again,your opinion,not a fact. Read above "my reasons".
They "seems" longer,its different. And the radiant quests have a certain variety for those who don't limit their vision at the surface like you do



at the end on Skyrim "main quest" you have even a song about you singed by the bards. What you want more ? apart from joke all the characters involved (greybeards,delphine etc.) are grateful to you,and so the guards. Even the reward is still there

.
A lot of things should have been optional for a lot of people;but not everything its possible and whatever Bethesda choice would be there will ever be a bunch of "disappointed" people out there. These is logical and inevitable sadly.

The story in Skyrim is so-so or mediocre; like Oblivion one for the record and dozens of other videogames out there - at least those of the same "free roaming" genre that "try to imitate" Tes -of course if you focalize all of your strenghts in the Mq this will result better than the rest. In Tes is the rest that is better as always -and even this is a strictly choice of the developers.

Exploration and free roaming above all. And the freedom of avoiding totally even the "debatable" main quest.


Don't exhaust yourself searching the net for such "big word" quoting the unreliable Wikipedia.

Who can really tell how bad or good something is ? this is "fallacy" perhaps. From you.

i've never insulted anyone on this forum. Read all my posts if you want.


Perhaps you're insulting my intelligence -again - repeating a false statement or misunderstanding my words. I've never insulted anyone here,i repeat.

Don't try to transform your lack of arguments and incomprehension in a "personal fight" please.


Your "problems" or presumption "to know what storytelling in an Rpg should be" not necessary concerning this forum or me. But free of report and discussing them here if you want,again.
I've understand your point of view on the two games and i've already expressed my opinion on your previous statements - but you seems to have the "urgency" to repeat the same things- and probably you will do it again ad infinitum simply to have the last word on a forum . Free of doin even this of course.

Or perhaps as i've said before you continue to misunderstand my words.


What "salt" can be for you in a game like this its not necessary for others, you've to deal with that unfortunately.
However,who can say that you - or me for that matter - are not "part of the masses" ourselves ? and who can say that the masses are wrong and not "us" ?

You see,perhaps we want even the same thing at the end (depth) the only difference is that i have a different approach.

Try to understand someone else's priorities before yours next time.
Perhaps you'll discover that seeing things from another perspective could help in the future before giving sentences like yours above about what you think are other people's "thoughts"

So,to summarize: the storyline of Skyrim is banol,yes. And there are even dozens of other things "banol" in my opinion in the game.

But i understand that the strenghts of this game are others and that probably this lack of depth its due to various and valid reasons. Debatable perhaps,but understandable.

Nothing that can be improved however in the future by the developers in this regard (at least partially)

p.s. Of the examples you gave i know RdR, Gta4 and The dark knight; the first two are masterpieces - better RdR for me - the last an overrated movie in an empty and desolate scenery (our current film industry) the only good thing was Heath Ledger in this movie - and a certain class and vocation of the director of course.

I have to pose counter-questions: describe a game that's fresh and original; i.e., I've played the Baldur's Gate series, Fallout series, Dragon age series, Gothic series, Neverwinter series, Half-Life series, and Witcher series of games - and I think they've all received a fair bit of acclaim, and I've certainly enjoyed them all. In your opinion, are any of these not banol? If so, why? And if not, what game is fresh and original - and why?

My point is that in every one of these games, including TES series, everything you do boils down to the same things: you're either doing a fetch/retrieve quest, seek and destroy/kill quest, find/escort quest; or you're trying to collect and locate objects (stimpacks, health potions, magic items, etc), or establish character dominace (own houses, run a faction, complete a romance). To me, the only things that make some games seem fresher or more original are the graphics (the look of the game), the content (a new type of magical sword, a new monster, new armor, a different-looking setting) or the story and history (how much depth there is to what's going on). I believe that in terms of story and history, TES has a rich and broad history full of interesting characters and creatures that is comparable to the Forgotten Realms, Middle Earth, or the Star Wars universe (for examples). All of these vast universes run on the same basic themes of good vs evil, search and rescue, avenge an injustice, establish an empire, discover a location/fact/creature, etc... These themes are common to all stories, not just CRPGs, and the quests and subplots in CRPGs are just objectives and fluff in the bigger scale of stories that have been told a thousand times before.

I would just love to hear about a storyline that isn't "banol" - especially in a CRPG - tell me about a game that tells a story that has never been told before or done before; tell me about a quest line that is totally original and unique. I just can't imagine what your frame of reference is... sorry about any uptight tone to my post - it's just that I think all of these games are great, and I guess I find the term "banol" insulting and in your OP I can't figure out what you're looking for, or why such a rich gaming experience falls short for you.

I know some of you guys are disappointed with Skyrim's 'streamlined,' approach in some areas. I started with Oblivion, so I can't really say anything about Morrowind ect. nor will I pretend I know by reading the wiki, but in MY OPINION... Bethesda still managed to pump out a massive, solid game that, while not an exact shadow of its former installments, still delivers in more areas than not. It's a really sad thing, now days I've been slowly realizing more and more, game franchises I know and love are turning into complete crap.

For example; Operation Flashpoint, Red Faction, Call of Duty, Splinter Cell, (possibly) Ghost Recon, and I'm sure there are others. TES/Bethesda is one of, if not the only game franchise/company I can still rely on to not screw me over. I hope it stays that way. If they keep making games like they made Skyrim, I will be happy.

This is also why I don't rageattack you 'veterans,' of the franchise who started long before Oblivion, and always talk of disappointment. Even if I disagree with some of the stuff you guys demand from Bethseda, you're that outspoken voice always ringing in their ears and keeping them for the most part on a good, familiar path.

So yeah, off topic. And remember ^ my opinion.

The whole fan base argument that the game is a disappointment is simply expected really.Its a natural thing for people to stick to the old and hate the new. For example in an mmo game I play(http://en.grepolis.com/) there was a huge debate and argument about the new 2.0 version of the game being implemented into the old servers. The 2.0 version meant the game was on the whole quite the same but looking at detail there was tons of tweaking. A large section of the players who had played this game for a long time hated the idea of the 2.0 version because they considered it rubbish and too full of bugs. When there was a vote on it,it was in fact found that the vast majority of players wanted the update to the new version. There were a number of arguments put forward by the "vets"(I guess I'll call them that) for example-the people who voted yes were ignorant, the vets should have more of a say because they've spent more time and paid more money in playing the game or the new version svcks or the voting was rigged. Still the update went through,a number of vets who thought there opinion mattered more than others claimed they were leaving and that the developers had made a huge mistake,and the game continued to thrive and create income.
Its simply fact from my view that people will cling to the old and criticize the new. Fan bases feel betrayed when the sequels do not turn out as they expected. Like mass effect 3 for example. The ending isn't as good as it should have maybe been according to people who had played former mass effect games( and I will agree it wasn't as good as it maybe could have been but anyway) and the entire fan base went absolutely mental about it with campaigns and all that.
It's also like books becoming films. You love the book and you go to see the film,you will instinctively criticize it.If you haven't read the book and go to see the film,you can easily find it very enjoyable(and if you read the book after you will probably find it even better,but I don't think that's relevant right now).For games if you have only played one game in the series you can find it amazing,which is my opinion of skyrim. However if you've played former elder scrolls games,you can very easily start to criticize it and focus on its negative points.
When you think about it,the reason the fan base hates the game so much is because they're thinking of themselves and what has happened before and purely looking at the bad side of the game. Skyrim has its flaws,it really does,but it appeals to a lot of people,especially people who haven't played the other elder scrolls games before. And the fan base? You bought the game. They got what they wanted out of you. Don't deny the fact that ultimately they care about what's in that wallet of yours. Still,vets will continue to hate on skyrim and future games in the elder scrolls series just like other series' of games and will express their opinions thoroughly,especially if there are other people who agree with them. And they will completely ignore the fact that right at that moment there are tons of people(much more than the old vets) enjoying the game.
(Sorry if I insulted anyone there,I didn't intent to)
Anyway,some of skyrim's quest lines were rather flawed(specifically the college of winterhold and the companions through stuff already discussed) however I would say that bethesda would benefit more from something entirely different in their dlc. When you think about it,what's going to be more attracting in order for people to buy the dlc? "now more questline missions!" or "now travel to new lands including cyrodil,morrowind and hammerfell,join new guilds and become the ultimate dragonborn hero across tamriel!". Although the people who hated the guilds would choose the first,I would say more would go for the second purely because there are probably more who actually enjoy the game than there are vets who are constantly critical of it.

The key is to add something that is not in some shape or form a quest centered around entering a dungeon or clearing out a camp. Diplomatic Immunity is a cool quest. So it talking to Paarthurnax, or capturing Odahviing.

I see what you're intending, but even those quests are derivative (I mean that literally, not in the derogatory sense). Diplomatic Immunity is entering a dungeon, just a nicer one without mold, rats, and Draugr. Talking to Paarthurnax is a fetch quest, essentially, only you're fetching conversation. And capturing Odahviing is still "go to place X, defeat creature Y to achieve goal."

Maybe you're looking for some more of those types of "dressed up" quests. In that, I would agree with you. Honestly, I'm tired of Claw doors and rotating Fish/Snake/Bird puzzles.

Like I said I actually like the leveling better..
In regards to this thread I feel the subject is "larger" than a veterans not liking it debate..
Objectively: Skyrim is a great Sandbox action adventure... with a shallow story and endless gameplay.
Subjectively:Skyrim because of it being more sandbox, has become less of an RPG even compared to other RPG's in the market.
Skyrims story is lackluster and shallow...
The disappointment is caused by what people feel is not necessarily streamlining but making it more accessible and more of a sandbox and less of an RPG.
What (a lot of people) are doing is sort of saying "move on and go with the flow"



While your argument is true in some respect.
That criticism, in most cases, is based not necesseraly of it being a sequel, but what a sequel is doing to gaming mechanics..
ME3 is in fact different.
ME2 nerfed a lot of the RPG elements compared to ME1, they were (in more ahum streamlined form) reintroduced in ME3. (new vegas did the same compared to FO3, bring back a lot of the older RPG elements and guess what hardcoe mode was one of the most popular additions)

The critique was about the ending of the story. People were disappointed with the story because they invested in it for three games..


Mechanics wise I actually like Skyrim better, but I do critize it for what it has become..(for me) a bland sand box game.

And the bland story lines (imho) are not a mechanic it is a design choice by Bethesda making TES even more about exploration and its open world than its adventure and RPG aspects.
The radiant quests are indicative of this.