So why are Skyrim's storylines so banol?

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:02 am

That's a real cute "i got a secret, and you can't have it!" grin ya got there, dude. Whatever. I'm not getting any hopes up until the horse comes out of the gate and we get to see what she can do.
I'm referring to the stuff they're adding in. I don't have a secret-I just assume that, since Beth has already started adding new stuff in for free, they're not done adding game mechanics and stuff that isn't just new content. How that will play out for guilds and other aspects of the game, we'll just have to wait and see
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Natalie Harvey
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:02 pm

I've got three words that will burst your bubble

CALL OF DUTY

The more I lurk, the more I become convinced that "Call of Duty" is the Gamer's Godwin's Law. Someone's going to mention it in almost every single thread.

At any rate, even if they did decide to appeal to the hardores - they're never going to be happy. It's just a fact of life. They weren't with Morrowind, until Oblivion came out and nostalgia goggles were in full power. Skyrim comes out, and I've seen Oblivion get some of the same treatment.
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Sweet Blighty
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:24 am

The more I lurk, the more I become convinced that "Call of Duty" is the Gamer's Godwin's Law. Someone's going to mention it in almost every single thread.

At any rate, even if they did decide to appeal to the hardores - they're never going to be happy. It's just a fact of life. They weren't with Morrowind, until Oblivion came out and nostalgia goggles were in full power. Skyrim comes out, and I've seen Oblivion get some of the same treatment.
It's more of the narcissistic RPG elitist's Goodwin's Law around here.
I only bring it up because it's an example that poor products still can and do sell well, so wishing ill fortune on Bethesda isn't a good way to get them to improve
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kelly thomson
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:52 am

The more I lurk, the more I become convinced that "Call of Duty" is the Gamer's Godwin's Law. Someone's going to mention it in almost every single thread.

At any rate, even if they did decide to appeal to the hardores - they're never going to be happy. It's just a fact of life. They weren't with Morrowind, until Oblivion came out and nostalgia goggles were in full power. Skyrim comes out, and I've seen Oblivion get some of the same treatment.

I agree. I have a lot of experience playing serial game titles. I'm a big time fan of Total War, Civilization, TES, Call of Duty (formerly), and things like Final Fantasy, Suikoden, Armored Core, Ace Combat, the list goes on and on and on. I know exactly how it feels to see a game series that you love go in a direction you hate.

However, I find that I get a lot more enjoyment from my particular favorites if I take each game as it is and try not to compare it to the previous ones. It then either svcks on its own, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I buy the next, regardless of what I thought of the game one generation ago.

I even give big series a "one title screwup" allowance. I skipped Napoleon and went from Empire to Shogun 2. I skipped Civ III and went from 2 to 4. I skipped modern warfare 2 and went to Black Ops, but when that one svcked too I abandoned COD.

Seems to work better if you abandon your expectations and consider each game as something new and different. You have a lot more fun, and you realize that you are a bigger fan of series games than you thought you were.

I like Skyrim, I really do. I think it's a lousy replacement for Morrowind, but I don't think it should have been in the first place. It's Skyrim. Different, but fun. I will buy TES 6, even if it is yet farther from the older games.

I just... work like that.
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Mike Plumley
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:05 pm

The point is that "old games that didn't need patches" were very basic, very simple game engines. Like Tetris (which had bugs!).

Complex games require complex code, and no matter how hard you wish complex code would be released bug free, it never is. Even extremely high dollar professional software is released with bugs and requires regular, routine updates. Check with your local university about how often Blackboard educational system is updated. It's flat out irritating. Ask a tech support guy if they ever require bug assistance with their main database software, usually Oracle. Ha.

Point is, you are incorrect that there was some golden age where extremely complicated game engines came out bug free. There wasn't. There never will be.

I'm not saying that some of the bugs in Skyrim weren't fairly ridiculous, even by relatively light testing standards. I think Skyrim was released as a buggy mess, I do. However, I never expect them to be bug free. Never. Nor should anyone.

Exactly... nostalgia seems to be a rampant disease in this particular forum. And we have people who think they are designers that have a pie in the sky vision of what technology, project planning, and funding can produce. So, not only is nostalgia a disease, so is vanity.
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stevie critchley
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:39 am

Ah the lazy nostalgia Argument, refuted so many times by curious folk who either decided to see how the old games are, or Long time folks who still play them :thumbsup:
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Makenna Nomad
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:52 pm

We can only hope that with the metric [censored]-ton of money they've made off Skyrim, they'll have a big enough warchest to do a better, more in-depth job of it, the next go.

They still need time, the right resources, and technology my friend. The current generation consoles cannot handle the great ideas many of the malcontents have right now. Unfortunately for them, consoles drive the gaming market. No matter how cool or powerful a PC can be, the money is in the consoles. Until the next-gen consoles, the malcontents will never be pleased... and then, they'll find something else to be unhappy about. That's because reality is hard to understand for those who expect it to be molded in their image.
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Princess Johnson
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:09 am

Exactly... nostalgia seems to be a rampant disease in this particular forum. And we have people who think they are designers that have a pie in the sky vision of what technology, project planning, and funding can produce. So, not only is nostalgia a disease, so is vanity.

And so is crappy, buggy programming where mammoths fall out of the sky and stupid-assed followers can't even hop over a pebble when they damn well should be able to. I don't care how many excuses for that crappy, lousy programming you try to invent, it's still crappy, buggy programming, very poorly done. No matter who is doing it. I would certainly be ashamed of it if it was my doing. Keep making excuses for them till the cows come home (or fall out of the sky), they still ring hollow.
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Sista Sila
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:44 am

And so is crappy, buggy programming where mammoths fall out of the sky and stupid-assed followers can't even hop over a pebble when they damn well should be able to. I don't care how many excuses for that crappy, lousy programming you try to invent, it's still crappy, buggy programming, very poorly done. No matter who is doing it. I would certainly be ashamed of it if it was my doing. Keep making excuses for them till the cows come home (or fall out of the sky), they still ring hollow.

And you've never seen bugs in games before... rrrriiiggghhhttt. Stop being so hard on the Bethesda developers, man. They did a damn good job. You definitely got your money's worth. Who really gives a crap about the occassional paratrooping mammoth that forgot to open his parachute. Really? Did that break your game? Did you throw down your controller in frustration and yell, "What a piece of crap! I can't believe this!"? No, you didn't. In fact, you laughed when it happened. And now, you're complaining that the same company that brought you hours of entertainment also brought you joy by surprise.
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Kelvin Diaz
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:13 am

Easy does it guys, there's room for both of you. The fact is that Skyrim is a lousy replacement for Morrowind. We all know this, but it's not a replacement for Morrowind, it's Skyrim. It's perfectly enjoyable in its own right.

Likewise, Morrowind is still a great game. It hasn't gotten any worse since the last time it was patched, years and years ago. Not surprisingly, many people still play great games even years after they are past their prime. I still play the SNES for goodness sake. Just because they are old doesn't mean the games weren't great, and they still are.

Nostalgia isn't always the explanation. Great old games are great games, that are just old. However, just because the new game isn't a good replacement for the old one, doesn't mean it svcks either.

Trust me, I'm not saying Skyrim is the greatest game in the universe and I'm not defending Bethesda from anyone. I just find the whining a bit ridiculous (and inconsistent to boot).
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Eliza Potter
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:49 pm

Right... refuted by the lazy, "nuh uh... it's not nostalgia... you're not as smart as me" argument. Gotcha.

What was this statement implying exactly? lol where did shoring up of intelligence come from? you brought up Nostalgia, and I said there are peeps who didn't start with the old games giving similar statements that you tie to only nostalgic Folk. so whats this you're not as smart as me thing coming from?


anyway The threads about the Story being lackluster, it could be So much more awesome and no not the same context as to how Cars could be so much better, or that stomach fat could be removed with just a little effort. no more like if they actually tried to be consistent, and stop worrying about Scaring people (CONSUMERS AREN'T HOPELESSLY DUMB) or thinking that intricate stories don't sell or to put it simply Stop relying on the -Simple Sells- mantra then the "hardcoe" folks can get their Fix, and the "casuals" can get some mental stimulation for once.
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leigh stewart
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:37 pm

What was this statement implying exactly? lol where did shoring up of intelligence come from? you brought up Nostalgia, and I said there are peeps who didn't start with the old games giving similar statements that you tie to only nostalgic Folk. so whats this you're not as smart as me thing coming from?

I was a combination of your retort and another person whining about the game. It's more of a broader perspective from a common thesis that seems to be regurgitated on threads like these.
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Floor Punch
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:34 pm

Mods shouldnt be fixing anything =/ Mods should just add. Beth should never have released this game. Once upon a time we got games that didnt NEED patches.

Sorry for the people who have had problems, but I haven't needed any patches.

In fact, to be quite honest, 5 patches in now, and I don't think a single change has had any impact on me...

As for the actual OP - story has never been the strong point of TES games. I don't dislike the stories or anything, I think they are just fine, but they aren't anything incredible and never have been.
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CRuzIta LUVz grlz
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:41 pm

Well, yeah, but I can do that with a couple of sock puppets and a half-rack of beer. When I buy I game, I'm assuming I'm paying them to create a lot of those interesting scenarios and possibilities, without me having to employ my own mental sock puppets just to get any satisfaction out of it. Boy was I assuming...

lol I second that!

I actually did a fair amount of sock puppet play for the first 15+ xp levels, but then my quest log got so crazy that I broke down and did the fast travel mailman routine just to clear it out.

Once I finished all the non-radiant quests I turned to Dark Souls because of the reviews it was getting, and it was quite a different experience. Dark Souls didn't have nearly as much story exposition, but the world felt more real than Skyrim , like you had more stake in it. It was a very difficult and often frustrating game, but because you really had to earn everything you got, there was more weight to it all.

I wish Beth writers could have given that kind of weight to Skyrim, instead of putting out so cheaply.
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Spaceman
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:00 pm

The storyline are amazing. Just the other day I said that the MQ is the best this generation has seen.
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Marine Arrègle
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:43 pm

And you've never seen bugs in games before... rrrriiiggghhhttt. Stop being so hard on the Bethesda developers, man. They did a damn good job. You definitely got your money's worth. Who really gives a crap about the occassional paratrooping mammoth that forgot to open his parachute. Really? Did that break your game? Did you throw down your controller in frustration and yell, "What a piece of crap! I can't believe this!"? No, you didn't. In fact, you laughed when it happened. And now, you're complaining that the same company that brought you hours of entertainment also brought you joy by surprise.

No, I most certainly didn't laugh any of the twenty thousand times my followers couldn't hop over a pebble, mucking up many a combat plan by not being behind me when they should have been, but off being stuck or running 5 miles around trying to find a way to follow me, and usually getting stuck again during that fool's errand. No, that little bit of crappy programming, among many others in the game, are what continuously nagged me and reminded me, throughout all of my adventuring, of just how much was wrong with the game. It's what kept it form getting a '10', or even over a '9', in my book. And stacked atop the godawful crappy UI that was another one of those constant reminders of mediocrity and non-user-friendly design that you had to battle against at every turn just to accomplish the simplest things... and on and on. No, the amazing thing, and what I will give them credit for, is that there was so much fun game play in there IN SPITE of all the mediocrity, bugginess, frustration, and poor design. But no, they don't get any free pass on all that [censored] from me, like you're so willing to give them. I hold game developers to higher standards than you appear to. Maybe I've just played too many well-done Valve and Blizzard games, to accept the excuses and apologies for companies that rush games out the door with so much that doesn't work the way it should.
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Just so you know, the UI was designed with consoles in mind.

Every PC player should get some form of SkyUI to make accessing the menu bearable.
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xxLindsAffec
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:33 am

TES games aren't supposed to be great story-driven RPGs. That's not the goal of the series. If you rush through the game completing the main questlines as quickly as possible, then you're doing it wrong and will most likely have a mediocre experience.

When you give the player so much freedom in terms of where they can go, what they can do, and who their character is, this inevitably makes it a lot harder to craft a strong storyline around the player.

That said, I do feel as though Skyrim could've been better in a couple of areas; especially:

- More imaginative quests (there's two many basic fetch/kill quests - most of which involve delving into a dungeon)
- Longer questlines (some of the factions in particular had potential, but progression felt so rushed that it ruined the experience for me)

I think this is pretty much right. The designers have explicitly stated that they don't try to put too much detail into quest writing, because that restricts the player's imagination. They prefer to leave things pretty open ended, and let the player fill in the gaps, according to their character. See here: http://blog.joelburgess.com/2012/03/gdc-2012-transcript-pursuing-elegance.html (the relevant bit is in the spoiler tags)

Spoiler


Radiant Story is one of the big features we knew we wanted to pursue right at the beginning with Skyrim. Radiant Story uses a feature called the Story Manager to feed quests and events into the world based on the player’s experience. The Story Manager is capable of tracking almost any data you can imagine – it knows everything about the player, how he or she has affected characters in the world, the state of current events, various information about locations, and so on. The point of this is, of course, to deliver semi-procedural experiences to players. We may not be able to achieve high-order procedurality in games with the fidelity of Skyrim just yet, but with Radiant Story we’ve begun to scratch the surface.

One application of Radiant Story are what we call Wilderness Encounters. Late in development we were able to identify areas of the world where not much was going on, and use the Story Manager to send events towards the player based on this. One of these encounters is the “radiant assassin.” The event is pretty straightforward: the player is walking along when an assassin from the Dark Brotherhood attacks. If the player kills and loots the assassin, she may discover an assassination contract with her name on it.

We consider this to be a pretty effective use of Radiant Story, if only because it proved to be thought-provoking for players. In the weeks following Skyrim’s release, we saw a lot of commentary about this event online. People would relay what had happened and had various different stories about why this assassin would come after them. This was especially interesting because the Story Manager is only looking for two conditions in order to be triggered. The player must have reached level ten, and not begun the Dark Brotherhood quests. For all the data Story Manager is capable of tracking, that’s all we care about in this case.

Looking a bit deeper, the design implementation of this particular event is pretty small. We created an assassin NPC, a note that dynamically fills in the player name, and set up the Story Manager event. That’s not much authored story, but any assassination attempt is a loaded question, rife with inherent mystery. Players were comparing this blip of authored story we provided against their personal history, and drawing their own conclusions. Perhaps they had married an NPC another character was interested in, or it was a case of mistaken identity. Maybe their criminal record or meddling in regional politics had caught up with them – or maybe it was a clear cut case of revenge for somebody the player had wronged.


These and dozens of other possible conclusions make up what we’ll call the “possibility space”. This is the ripple created by the bit of authored story we created. As small as it was, the possibility space resulting from this story was quite large. I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion, however, that tendency of developers to add additional complexity. And indeed, it would be very common for a designer to see this story, feel encouraged by it and want to add on. So let’s suppose we provide information that traces the assassination contract back to a Jarl – one of the governers of Skyrim. There are a few issues that can come up if we do this.

First, and by far the least important – is the fact that we’ll need to add additional conditions to the story manager event, so it only triggers if the player annoys a Jarl. This will reduce the number of players for whom the event will trigger. We’re comfortable with players missing content in our games, however, so while we’ll take this sort of thing into consideration, it isn’t a big concern.

More troublesome however, is the fact that by validating one member of the possibility space – we’ve now established the idea that this is a politically-motivated assassination attempt, not romantic, revenge, or otherwise – we instantly invalidate every other member of the original possibility space. We haven’t necessarily increased the possibility space in a new or more interesting direction, either. So we’ve arguably put more effort into making a less effective or interesting story. Further, we’ve started down a slippery slope of implementation. The moment I attribute the contract to a Jarl, I have to consider reasonable reactions on the part of the player. Can the player confront the Jarl? What will be said? What if the player takes revenge? When we tack on story for its own sake, without an idea of where we are going, it can be difficult to know where to draw the line and move on.

Of course, this isn't to say that the quality of writing is great or anything like that. It's just to point out that there's a clear and reasonable motivation for not wanting to make the quests "deep" by filling them up with lots of writing.

The main issue with quests are those Sheogorath points out: they tend to be somewhat unimaginative (fetch quests in dungeons), and some of the guild questlines are too short/badly paced (Companions and Winterhold, mainly).
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Jinx Sykes
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:23 pm

Yes, the guilds largely svck, especially the Thieves' Guild.

Radiants are useless in terms of extending the guild's lifetime because all they do is bring in cash, not story.

I'd say The Thieves Gild was the second best, as it holds the longest storyline, and the radiant quests actually expands the story as you gain influence in the cities the more jobs you pull and will then set up contacts and get extra missions. But yes, even the Thieves Guild's storyline is awfully rushed. The Black Brotherhood storyline was the best one as it was actually belivable - there was a reason you ended up in charge despite your lack of time in the "guild" and this shaped more or less the entire storyline. And if you put time into the guilds, whichever ones they might be it's nice to be able to continue being a part of them rather than you just suddenly having nothing more to do with these people, it does create a sense of belonging. But I really don't get it, would it have been that hard to expand these questlines? There are tons of random missions found throughout that are completely missable but are large on content, why not use time on the main questlines instead if they were so rushed?

The College of Winterhold storyline is the silliest. You attend one class where you learn one spell, partake in one school expedition, then no more schooling, what so ever, get thrown into 6 pretty decent quests, and then it's obvious you, the fresh new student who only attended that one class, and hell, might just know that one spell, should be archmage. Would it have been that hard to have more classes? Perhaps give you a not so rushed sense of belonging before you're their only hope? Every guild questline is essentially, "you got to do this right away, no time to lose, I don't care if you just got here two mins ago, run this operation with me and then be my boss/replace me".

I said that Winterhold was the silliest, but only because anyone, regardless of any knowledge of magic can become archmage, the Companion questline is almost laughable at times. You get two quick radiant mission, one just involves a brawl, followed by a somewhat more complicated radiant quest, then it's time to prove yourself, your final initiation - so far, so good - but after this one test you are being brought into the circle? Ahead of people who have been members for years (well, ok, maybe they don't want to be werewolf) - but you can't even say no. Sure, you can ask what happens if you don't want to, but you can't even take radiant quests until you accept. Throw in some werewolf hunters as useless filler, kill a witch(or more) and you're the boss. Certainly the worst plotted of all the questlines. At least the College quests were more elaborate and creative, granted most was still just about crushing(or burning/freezing/shocking) skulls.

It's interesting that a game that create such rich, nuanced and belivable lore and backstories, particularly how nuanced the civil war was portrayed, suffered from so much poor writing and plotting. Phenomenal game though, love it to death.
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Vicki Blondie
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:06 am

TES games aren't supposed to be great story-driven RPGs. That's not the goal of the series. If you rush through the game completing the main questlines as quickly as possible, then you're doing it wrong and will most likely have a mediocre experience.

When you give the player so much freedom in terms of where they can go, what they can do, and who their character is, this inevitably makes it a lot harder to craft a strong storyline around the player.

The problem with that concept is that whenever you complete a quest in one of the main questlines you are told that you need to hurry and do this/that, a new quest has already begone, and for roleplaying purposes it should be completed as fast as possible. Furthermore, it's not a particularly free RPG. The dialog options are almost always forced. Often In have to play dumber than I am to get quests, ask ridiculous questions I've already heard the answer to 100 times, etc. Often you just have one dialog option, and the way they are worded depends on which type of quest/questline you are doing so sometimes it doesn't feel like the same character at all. It feels more often that not that Skyrim is just forcing my hand. For example, if I don't want to do the main quest I must stay out of certain places as it will trigger me to say things I don't want to.
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gary lee
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:38 pm

And you've never seen bugs in games before... rrrriiiggghhhttt. Stop being so hard on the Bethesda developers, man. They did a damn good job. You definitely got your money's worth. Who really gives a crap about the occassional paratrooping mammoth that forgot to open his parachute. Really? Did that break your game? Did you throw down your controller in frustration and yell, "What a piece of crap! I can't believe this!"? No, you didn't. In fact, you laughed when it happened. And now, you're complaining that the same company that brought you hours of entertainment also brought you joy by surprise.

No, but I did get frustrated when the game kept crashing on 360.
And when I couldn't complete quests.

You seem to have this idea that me and other people are hard on just Bethesda. Before I entered the game industry, or school for design, I could deal with the occasional bug, hell I was okay with a crash now and then as long as it didn't happen all that often. I was okay with some bad designs because I didn't look at it like I do now.

It's funny that you like to take jabs at people, especially once you know what they do in the real world, perhaps you should stop that because it doesn't help your case much.

I cite what I think are bad designs and give logical reasons behind it. Things like having Power Attacks and Shield Bash only require 1 Stamina while Spells actually have a larger and set Magicka cost is a stupid, stupid design in terms of balance. There's no question about that, that's a period statement. Things like removing the Disposition system nearly completely isn't bad design but it's a questionable choice especially since they included what should have been a Disposition based mechanic... marriage.

"Think they are a designer" my ass. Bethesda isn't exactly new to the game business, they know what milestones and time tables are like, they know what they can do and what they can't do. Citing "they just didn't have the proper funding, tech or planning" for every thing is BS, because as I said, they know what they can and can't do, they aren't new to this. They can implement a brand new marriage system but they can't put a set cost requirement on Stamina for combat? Please.
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Darrell Fawcett
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:35 am

Honestly, why should they care about their old fans? For every one they lose, they can gain 5 more by changing up their m.o. That makes sense from any perspective. I'm looking for logic in your post, but all I see is heartfelt loyalty issues. There's a reason loyalty and honor-based feudal systems collapsed all over the world. They don't grow. The broader audience isn't mythical. It's there. Look at the wii. Not a single hard core gamer bought one, but it's one of the best selling consoles of all time. Why? Casual gamers, family types, children. That broad audience is not a myth. There's no point in pining over what Skyrim should be. It should be whatever Bethesda thinks will sell. If you don't think it's what you want, then don't buy it, regardless of how much you liked the former games. The problem lies in your expectations, not in those of the developers. If there's a hole in the market for a certain type of RPG and Bethesda doesn't fill it, someone else will. If they don't, then it's not big enough for anyone to care about. At that point, sadly, you belong to nobody's target audience. You can either change your expectations and join an audience that is targeted, or you can simply long for something that won't come. There is no reasonable expectation that the entirety of their loyal fanbase will eat up any new game that they release. In fact, most developers expect to lose a certain percentage of their former fans each generation, simply because the new game is not a carbon clones of the old game with updated graphics. But at the same time, they don't care.

Skyrim would have been a success essentially no matter what they did with it. And really, a bit more depht and longer storylines would not have scared any casual gamers away. No clue where this over the top pessimism is coming from. There are plenty of games with a lot of focus on good storytelling, and they sell as well ...

And really, most aspects of Skyrim is pretty phenomenal, I assume most people who are on this board feel the same way. It's really just lacks a bit of polishing which would have been very easy to do, and is far from unlikely that we'll get in the next TES game.
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Crystal Birch
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:21 am

A number of off topic and/or inflammatory posts have been deleted, warnings issued.

Nothing wrong with debating this topic but let's avoid personal insults, please.
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Ross Thomas
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:28 pm

I'm late to the Skyrim forum so I don't know the current wisdom, but why are Skyrim's storylines so banol? And is there any indication that a DLC will improve upon it? I did the 120+ hours and became the uninspiring leader of everything as usual. So what's next? I pause for a reply.

I disagree on the banol stories (Oblivion were much worse in that matter), but I agree you shouldn't be able to become the leader of everything. It's just so unrealistic...

But it has been that way since always, and it'll always be surely. All that you can do to that is either pretend you aren't after completion of the questline, or not completing them.
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Isabell Hoffmann
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:43 am

Yes, the guilds largely svck, especially the Thieves' Guild.

Radiants are useless in terms of extending the guild's lifetime because all they do is bring in cash, not story.

I think this is more a problem with the cash, not the story, though Ironically, radiants in the Thieves Guild do bring in story. This is about the only redeeming factor of the Thieves guild.

But yes, overall, the guilds are pretty lame aside from the Dark Brotherhood, and arguably, the Civil War conflict.

By trying to appeal to this "mythical" broader audience, in doing so they spurn or otherwise upset and marginalize the worth of those that got them to where they are now.

There is a serious problem in my opinion, if your long time fans can take a step back, and look at the newest game you made, and begin to think for even one second, that the type of game that is being made, no longer resembles what initially interested and drew them to the company in the first place.

Pretentious statement much? The irony is, it was the "Broader audience" you're so dismissive of that got TES to a position where they can even continue to make games. The Arena and Daggerfall groups certainly didn't carry the weight of the company very far, that's for sure, though I doubt Battlespire helped much.

Honestly, if you want Daggerfall + 1, +2, +3, and +4 or even Morrowind +1, +2, +3, you're probably better off sticking with CoD or Assassins Creed, since they're the masters of additive recycling. Even though I might (and do) like previous Elder Scrolls games more than Skyrim, I'm happy to support a company with the guts to reinvent their success every time.
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sally R
 
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