Because we need Unarmed in Warrior constellation and Mysticism in Mage constellation. To keep skills even Thief constellation needs one more skill as well, and Acrobatics(combined with Athletics) would be the most useful one.

What builds do you miss? How is the series headed down the wrong path?

No more streamlining. Give me more clutter, filler and useless crap. Let me worry about whether its useful or not. It's like the marriage feature, its practically useless - but provides a lot of roleplay opportunities. In a sandbox game there are no features, only tools for your imagination.

All of the ones revolving around jump height variable obviously. Then all of the outside the box and creative things you could do with SC, that could flesh out, or create a new type of build/RP. But for acrobatics, I already have it, like I said. Console commands brought it back, and its awesome. For the sneak thief, illusionist, street performer, court magician, Jester, acrobat, Rawlith Khaj master, etc. it is essential for depth. Interestingly Beth did up the AI so they run away when you take a height advantage. Its not foolproof, but it is better than say Oblivion.

After having played skyrim, and returning to oblivion, I've noticed how wonky acrobatics and athletics feel, and how completely broken the run animation looks when it's based on skills as opposed to animating from a set value.

I say good riddance to athletics and acrobatics. They won't be missed. Ever.

Also: smithing and lockpicking combined makes as much sense as destruction and two handed combined. You destroy things, surely it's the same... Like, no.

That's kind of an interesting idea, not the worst choice if you were going to dissolve the lockpicking tree. I think if this were a steampunk game, and the main crafting skill included making intricate gadgets out of clockwork and steam in addition to smithing armor, it would make a lot of sense. But its not, smithing in this game means pounding hot metal into something sword or helmet shaped, so lumping it together with something as delicate as lockpicking is a bit of a stretch.

setgs fJumpHeightMin Here's the command for PC players to change jump height. Its awesome in Skyrim.

Indeed.

I really like the perk system though. Maybe lockpicking could be part of a smithing tree? Locksmithing?
Since it introduced the old skills of morrowind and such without actually clogging up the window. You go one handed, and specialize in axe, etc.

I just don't think it works unless you're actually able to craft the items themselves though. So at that point, just a general crafting skill would make more sense - able to make any object in the world.
And at that point, lock picking doesn't make sense in combination with that.

it doesn't have to be Acrobatics per se, but the game desperately needs a way to differenciate the physical capabilities of characters, more than number of stamina points and damage with either all one-handed or all two-handed weapons at any rate. Call it Agility (if only for memory's sake) and have it cover dodging, faster movement and some higher jumping (not too high obviously). You level it by making a dodge manoeuver in combat, so that it's not grindy like ye olde Acrobatics and Athletics. The forward roll you get in Sneak could get relocated here too. Oh, and jumping while sprinting, too. What's the logic behind not being able to jump while you sprint, anyhow?

I just want my rogue-type charcter to be more agile than my warrior, who in turn would be in better physical shape than my mage. The only distinction right how is that the agile characters can sprint for 5 seconds more. It's not enough.

Er, pickpocket should have been in sneak, like it was in Oblivion and Morrowind. Not since Daggerfall have we seen the lock picking skill. It was almost like they started cutting skills, cut too many, then split sneak to compensate.

And?... And it also allowed you to attack while jumping, and it allowed you to take less damage from high falls; jumps fatigued you less, and also allowed the PC to skip across ponds at the higher levels... and IIRC it gave additional dodge options/animations.

Jumping higher was a very useful benefit I felt; I used it all the time. I honestly would have expected them to expand upon it, even incorporate it into combat animation. I do not see the sense of removing such a useful and thematically appropriate skill like Acrobatics.

Because acrobatics and athletics were amazing. Having them combined would save time. I already jump mountains in third person, and having the extra jumping abilities would be sick nasty, son.

Combining it with Athletics only results in growing two skills for the price of one, and making every athlete an acrobat.

In a game with such a focus on mountains, I wanted Acrobatics to be enhanced, and perhaps combined with climbing somehow. Removing it was just a terrible decision.

And no, "I didn't like it or use it in Oblivion therefore it's redundant" is not an excuse. Nor is "it was too unrealistic by Earth standards". I didn't like or use magic in previous TES games, and find shooting flames out of my hands unrealistic by Earth standards. Should Bethesda remove that aspect of the game next?

Not at all. The perk system allows for a diverging build: a guy with a 100 in "fitness" (or whatever it would wind up being called) and heavy investment in the more "athletics" side of the perk tree would be very different from the guy with a 100 in fitness and heavy investment in the "acrobatics" side of the perk tree. The new perk system changes a lot: not every mechanic has to be tied directly the the progression of a single skill anymore, allow the level of the skill itself to represent a general aptitude while the selection of perks is whatever that individual does with it.

And yes, there's a correlation between acrobatics and athletics aptitudes. A marathon runner is going to be better at competitive gymnastics than the guy who won the nobel prize for chemistry, simply because his level of general fitness is much higher. An olympic gymnast will beat the chessmaster in a footrace. While their areas of specialization (ie, the perks they've selected) differ, their overall ability to move their bodies with power and precision (ie, their skill level) will effect their ability to perform at other athletic-related tasks better than someone without their level of physical fitness.

Under my proposed mod, all that the levels in the skill itself would do would be to reduce the stamina costs for sprinting, climbing, and acrobatics. Without perks, in other words, you'd just become a really fit guy: you'd need to take specific perks to make yourself a champion rock climber or a gymnast or whatever.

WIth the perk system acrobatics could've been so much more than just jumping, it could've included dodging, kicking and hand to hand not to mention climbing, hell. they could've put unarmored back in.
All of those are way more interesting than both lockpicking or speech and could've been merged with ahtletics if they really felt it nessecary to remove skills.

I totally agree. For what its worth, I think Daggerfall had the best character creation of the lot.

Skyrim is a fantastic game, but its a common theme on the forums for people who were fans of the TES series to point out how it lacks so many of the features of previous games in the series, and people bitterly miss that. Then you get the fan boys trying to defend Skyrim, trying to justify how less choice and simple is somehow better (it isn't).

Me? I'm happy to play this wonderful game, but I'll continue hoping for the day when a game like Skyrim is released WITH the RPG depth of a Morrowind. I'm beginning to doubt whether its Bethesda who will make such a game.

The acrobatics and athletic skills I didn't care about. And especially the speed attribute in general.

Seems as though agility should have covered it.

I always hated in Oblivion how having a high speed meant the character was going to zip around like a spaz all the time. Constantly jumping to far ... being unable to stop in time. It was like a 3 stooges show.

Not going to miss that.

You just answered your own question - That is why I want acrobatics. I like my assassin / thief to be agile. It is good for sneaking over buildings, and leaping over fences to escape angry guards

It was a bit too powerful in Morrowind, and I did end up bunning hopping everywhere, but it was fun dammit!

Edit - just to be clear I do really like the new skill system, but it would have been nice to have acrobatics as a skill. You could have better jumping, faster running, stronger swimming etc..

How about we just combine all skills into ADVENTURING, because it MAKES SENSE?

The only reason combining Smithing and Lockpicking makes sense to you is that you are imagining a Smith class that includes various skills any well-rounded smith should know. The only reason combining Lockpick and Sneak makes sense to you is that you are imagining a Thief class that includes various skills that any well-rounded thief should know. In Skyrim, Smithing is a skill, not a class. You don't learn all about the inner mechanisms of locks by doing the kinds of things Smithing has you do. In Skyrim, Sneak is a skill, not a class. You don't learn how to pick pockets by doing the kinds of things Sneak has you do. The skill combinations you suggest make sense in a class-based system, not in a skill-based one.

Maybe Bethesda should give up the pretense of offering skill-based characters. Maybe the Elder Scrolls should return to class-based characters. It would certainly be simpler.

What I always disliked about Acrobatics was the way it was "trained", way too simple, imho.

I would've liked acrobatics back in some form of "agility" where you can move faster, jump over enemies or on top of places to get out of reach, dodge under attacks ect. As I said in anoither thread, I feel like the different playstyles aren't different enough, so another type of character would've been nice.

I disagree with all of that ~incredibly so... The Chemist might be a gymnast, and not all marathon runners can do gymnastics; and the Chessmaster might run marathons as a hobby.

Its the same with weapons too... Its primitive to lump one-handed weapons as a catchall skill ~regardless of edged or blunt perks... Even different daggers aren't always used the same.

The whole "float-jumping" was ridiculous.

Agree with the OP about Acrobatics, it's completely useless and overpowering in certain situations by allowing you to jump on a roof and pelt arrows at enemies until they die. I disagree with the OP about merging pickpocket and merging lockpick, both those skills are fine by themselves and if we merged pickpocket back with Sneak the skill will again be useless.

We don't need more than one weapon, or more than one race.

It's all the little features like people running and jumping faster than other that make TES games somewhere you live, not just a game.


EDIT: It wouldn't be hard for them to set a cap for the maximum height/speed you could jump/run and made it not affect your level-up