why do people hate the Blades?

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:05 am

Sure it can. If you can believe one thing you can believe another, too. Just because they cannot understand it does not mean they cannot become old and weak. The also come in different strengths and Paarthurnax was an easy kill.
No, no they can't. Dragons are immortal. This means that they don't grow old and their power doesn't diminish with time.

Unlike normal immoral beings, they can be killed, but they will be reborn unless you're the Dragonborn and you absorb their soul when you kill them.
User avatar
Josh Dagreat
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:07 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:24 pm

Another thing to add is if you talk to the little girls in Rorikstead they say "I had a dream that there was a good dragon. He was old and grey but he wasn't scary." Which just adds further emphasis that the 9001 conspiracy theories that Paarthurnax will just "turn evil" to be just that, conspiracy theories.

The Blades want you to punish him for what he did do, not what he might do.
User avatar
Svenja Hedrich
 
Posts: 3496
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:18 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:01 pm

No, no they can't. Dragons are immortal. This means that they don't grow old and their power doesn't diminish with time.
Yes, I happen to have killed quite a few of them. And no, I do not believe in this nonsense of immortal being the same as not being able to age. If it can be killed then it can age, too. Age is not more than a slow killer.
User avatar
victoria johnstone
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:56 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:04 am

Yes, I happen to have killed quite a few of them. And no, I do not believe in this nonsense of immortal being the same as not being able to age. If it can be killed then it can age, too. Age is not more than a slow killer.

Immortal

1. not subject to death or decay; having perpetual life
2. having everlasting fame; remembered throughout time
3. everlasting; perpetual; constant
4. of or relating to immortal beings or concepts
5. Biology Capable of indefinite growth or division. Used of cells in culture.

We're dealing with #5 here- age occurs because cells stop growing and dividing. A dragon's cells do not.
User avatar
Yama Pi
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:51 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:35 am

Prove, in the lore, that a Dragon has grown old and died without being killed by someone.
Why? You started the argument so you prove to me that lore is not just utter nonsense.
User avatar
TOYA toys
 
Posts: 3455
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:22 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:33 am

Why? You started the argument so you prove to me that lore is not just utter nonsense.

If you're going to toss what the lore says out, then you have no business arguing if Dragons in the Elder Scrolls series can age or not. We're dealing with FICTIONAL creatures that may or may not have REAL LIFE apply to them. The LORE is the only source of truith that can definitively answer this question. If you're going to say it's utter crap, then you have no business arguing the point.
User avatar
HARDHEAD
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:49 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:19 pm

Immortal

1. not subject to death or decay; having perpetual life
2. having everlasting fame; remembered throughout time
3. everlasting; perpetual; constant
4. of or relating to immortal beings or concepts
5. Biology Capable of indefinite growth or division. Used of cells in culture.

We're dealing with #5 here- age occurs because cells stop growing and dividing. A dragon's cells do not.
6. It does not exist.
User avatar
Beth Belcher
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:39 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:05 pm

If you're going to toss what the lore says out, then you have no business arguing if Dragons in the Elder Scrolls series can age or not.
I can and I do and you have to live with it.
User avatar
Chris Cross Cabaret Man
 
Posts: 3301
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:33 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:02 pm

Then we're just going to have to disagree.
User avatar
Richus Dude
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:17 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:09 pm

Then we're just going to have to disagree.
We?
User avatar
Tiffany Holmes
 
Posts: 3351
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:28 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:08 pm

You and me. We're arguing this point, and unless one of us is willing to back down on the stance of existing lore, we're not going to come to any kind of agreement.
User avatar
Leah
 
Posts: 3358
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:11 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:32 am

You and me. We're arguing this point, and unless one of us is willing to back down on the stance of existing lore, we're not going to come to any kind of agreement.
No. We are not arguing, maybe that is just what you think you do. You are only in disbelieve. That dragons can get old and weak is a possibility that you cannot rule out just like you cannot rule out lore to be wrong. Nothing in this game is or was ever set in stone. What you perceive as the "ultimate rules" of TES games is just part of the story telling, the history within the game itself, and carried through time by humans and it is just as much subject to change as the world itself.

This is not an argument, it is an explanation for you to be understood.
User avatar
luis dejesus
 
Posts: 3451
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:40 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:28 pm

Allright. Since you're tossing out the lore debate and want to focus on unchangable real life, lemmie pull something out. Remember when you said
6. It does not exist.

Well, it does exist. Here's two links for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurkat

Know what these are? These are immortal cell lines. That's right, I said immortal. They're cancer cells that will not stop growing or dividing, they will not grow old and die. And they're real- HeLa is commonly used in cell research and can be a contaminant in laboratories while Jurkat cells are used to study T cell Leukemia. Biological immortality is real. And if it's real, it can apply to dragons.

Dont like the Wikipedia links? Here ya go!

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Henrietta-Lacks-Immortal-Cells.html

http://www.copewithcytokines.de/cope.cgi?key=Jurkat
User avatar
le GraiN
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:48 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:43 am

Dragons are immortal because they are creations of the God of Time, thus aren't affected by the laws of time. Or at least not in the same way.
User avatar
Travis
 
Posts: 3456
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:57 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:03 pm

Allright. Since you're tossing out the lore debate and want to focus on unchangable real life, lemmie pull something out. Remember when you said


Well, it does exist. Here's two links for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurkat

Know what these are? ...
You can call them whatever you want, but they are subject to decay as everything in this universe. Live to the end of time and then you can pull this out as an argument. Until then is immortality nonsense.

Btw, that is a [censored] stupid example. To call a cancer cell immortal ... They kill their host! How is this immortal?
User avatar
Annika Marziniak
 
Posts: 3416
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:22 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Dragons are immortal because they are creations of the God of Time, thus aren't affected by the laws of time. Or at least not in the same way.
Pretty much in the same way. If they can get hit by a sword then they can get hit by pretty much anything of substance. Your arguments may not kill it, though. They are too weak.
User avatar
Etta Hargrave
 
Posts: 3452
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:27 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:57 pm

You can call them whatever you want, but they are subject to decay as everything in this universe. Live to the end of time and then you can pull this out as an argument. Until then is immortality nonsense.

Btw, that is a [censored] stupid example. To call a cancer cell immortal ... They kill their host! How is this immortal?

First- to the latter. You've jsut proved that a Cancer cell is a seperate enetity by calling the person a "host." If the "host" was not a host, the cancer cells would simply be part of the body. Furthermore, the HeLa and the Jurkat cells now exist OUTSIDE of a host. They form an organisim all of their own; because of this, they are biologically immortal, so the proof still stands.

Now, for the former- you have just commited an argumentive fallacy by increasing the burden of proof required before you are willing to accept the conclusion. This marks that your own stance is now weak without any further supporting evidence. You must supply the counter-evidence to my evidence of biological immortality or your point is forfeit.
User avatar
Dorian Cozens
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 9:47 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:53 am

...how did this become a topic about cancer...?
User avatar
Becky Palmer
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:43 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:14 am

First- to the latter. You've jsut proved that a Cancer cell is a seperate enetity by calling the person a "host." If the "host" was not a host, the cancer cells would simply be part of the body. Furthermore, the HeLa and the Jurkat cells now exist OUTSIDE of a host. They form an organisim all of their own; because of this, they are biologically immortal, so the proof still stands.
No. These cells cannot survive outside a host. They need to be kept alive and thus are not immortal. They are only called immortal.
User avatar
Bek Rideout
 
Posts: 3401
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:00 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm

...how did this become a topic about cancer...?
Because of nerdy loreheads believing in the concept of immortality. They are going to hate me just like they hate the guy who told them Santa is not real.
User avatar
Dragonz Dancer
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:01 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:41 pm

Because of nerdy loreheads believing in the concept of immortality. They are going to hate me just like they hate the guy who told them Santa is not real.
umm... ITS A GAME! therfore if they want to intoroduce immortality, THEY CAN!


<------- Nerdy Lorehead
User avatar
Peter lopez
 
Posts: 3383
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:55 pm

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:26 pm

umm... ITS A GAME! therfore if they want to intoroduce immortality, THEY CAN!


<------- Nerdy Lorehead

Don't bother- he's claiming they can't be because lore can change.
User avatar
Mari martnez Martinez
 
Posts: 3500
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:39 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:58 am

No. These cells cannot survive outside a host. They need to be kept alive and thus are not immortal. They are only called immortal.

Yes, they can.

Because of their adaptation to growth in tissue culture plates, HeLa cells are sometimes difficult to control. They have proven to be a persistent laboratory "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weed" that contaminates other cell cultures in the same laboratory, interfering with biological research and forcing researchers to declare many results invalid. The degree of HeLa cell contamination among other cell types is unknown because few researchers test the identity or purity of already-established cell lines. It has been demonstrated that a substantial fraction of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro cell lines — estimates range from 10% to 20% — are contaminated with HeLa cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Gartler in 1967 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Nelson-Rees in 1975 were the first to publish on the contamination of various cell lines by HeLa.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-11
Science writer Michael Gold wrote about the HeLa cell contamination problem in his book A Conspiracy of Cells. He describes Nelson-Rees's identification of this pervasive worldwide problem — affecting even the laboratories of the best physicians, scientists, and researchers, including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk — and many, possibly career-ending, efforts to address it. According to Gold, the HeLa contamination problem almost led to a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War incident: The USSR and the USA had begun to cooperate in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_cancer launched by President http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon only to find that the exchanged cells were contaminated by HeLa. Gold contends that the HeLa problem was amplified by emotions, egos, and a reluctance to admit mistakes. Nelson-Rees explains:[indent]
It's all human - an unwillingness to throw away hours and hours of what was thought to be good research...worries about jeopardizing another grant that's being applied for, the hurrying to come out with a paper first. And it isn't limited to biology and cancer research. Scientists in many endeavors all make mistakes, and they all have the same problems.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-12[/indent]
Rather than focus on how to resolve the problem of HeLa cell contamination, many scientists and science writers continue to document this problem as simply a contamination issue — caused not by human error or shortcomings but by the hardiness, proliferating, or overpowering nature of HeLa.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-13http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-Pascal-14[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify] Recent data suggest that cross-contaminations are still a major ongoing problem with modern cell cultures.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-pmid20143388-2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#cite_note-Nardone-15


The cells are adapted to grow in things like petri dishes. And before you say that the Petri Dish is a host, consider that we're adapted to life on Earth- Earth is a giant petri dish for us humans. If the Petri Dish is a host, then we humans are not seperate organisms.
User avatar
DAVId MArtInez
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:16 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:02 am

Dragons are immortal because they are creations of the God of Time, thus aren't affected by the laws of time. Or at least not in the same way.


Yeah, it's that simple.

As much I like both factions, I'm not going to make up my own story about dragons. It's not my game.
User avatar
Oyuki Manson Lavey
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:47 am

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:58 pm

The cells are adapted to grow in things like petri dishes. And before you say that the Petri Dish is a host, consider that we're adapted to life on Earth- Earth is a giant petri dish for us humans. If the Petri Dish is a host, then we humans are not seperate organisms.
No, you do not seem to understand. Humans are needed to keep these so called immortal cells alive. It is us humans who have placed them into petri dishes and we nurture them and thereby do we keep them alive. They only live as long as we keep them alive.

We have no proof that anything immortal exists and because of our own mortality are we not able to create proof either. Therefore does it not exist. Immortality is only an abstract just like infinity, but it is not real. It only exists in fantasies.

You can have immortal dragons in TES and aging once, too. Both at the same time. In a quantum state or not at all. They could be bunnies in disguise, too.

I never said you cannot have immortal dragons. I only do not believe in it. You said that there can be no mortal dragons.

For all we know can the immortality of dragons be a lie created by the dragons themselves to make humans believe that dragons cannot be defeated and to undermine our will to fight them.
User avatar
Nicole M
 
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:31 am

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim