One word describes most, if not everything, discussed in this thread:
Preferences

You liked a feature in a previous game, then it was removed/changed in the new one? Of course you will feel that this aspect of the game is worse than before, or even dumbed down.
You didn't like a feature in a previous game, then it was removed/changed in the new one? Then it is only natural that you will feel that this aspect of the game is better.

But while in the end, it all comes down to preferences, I think it is very nice that additions, changes and removals are discussed like they are in this thread. It gives Bethesda the opportunity to simply look through the thread(s), see what the majority think, then make a better game... for most people. As for the discussion, I like all TES games, and I enjoy new features, get sad when features are removed, but I adapt to the new game and I enjoy it as best as I can.

Bang on OP. Most of the complaints are born from some ridiculous sense of elitism.

I am sure the Nobel Prize Committee will start handing out prizes for "Playing Computer Games" soon....

Not really, know more about the ES and Skyrim, newb.

What is "Elite" about wanting a complex RPG?

Every single complaint is a very valid complaint. Now, you might not agree with them and that is your choice. To say that someone not liking what you like is "Eliteism" just shows "Eliteism" on yourself.

You ever heard of ''Don't fix it if it isn't broken? Yeah? Todd hasn't.

And you won't be winning many debating awards by contradicting yourself, either.

Calling people who wanted Skyrim to be better than it was "ridiculous elitists" implies that you are better than them because you don't complain, reinforced by your snide remark at the end.

i agree, and i agree with the op as well on this, bethesda games are very fun and to me they kinda made their own genre, and a few people think they need to "change" and they are doing everything wrong, but nothing could be further from the truth, i thouroughly enjoy bethesda games and they are my favorite game developer, although deus ex and stalker are also good games and i like how those games were made as well... but i don't think bethesda needs to change anything in how they make their games. they are already on the cutting edge. in the same way id software was with first person shooters.

Thank you.

.........

As far as 'dumbing' down, or streamlining or mainstreaming...

Many of the decisions made for Skyrim had to be different because of the introduction of the dual-wielding mechanic, and the region. I wish quests were more narrative driven, though some are quite heavy in that department, and I wish that you couldn't become the leader of every guild with one character.

I don't like, or rather... I don't think that weapons are quite diverse enough in 1H'd or 2H'd. They do different damages and swing at different speeds, but I'd like more definition.

The difference between 2H'd and 1H'd mobiles in this game is an improvement in this game thanks to finishers, where before a mobile just swung his enormous claymore at your face and it just didn't seem that a weapon of that calibur conveyed the brutality of being hit by a weapon like that. I enjoy knowing that if I go up to a Bandit Chief wielding an enormous Warhammer... I may very well get my skull crushed at any time... and god help me that just seems right.

The thing you have to remember, which really puts this whole 'dumbing down' discussion into perspective is this :

Dual-Wielding is a spanky new combat mechanic to TES, and it should be no surprise that there are going to be some mistakes made with a brand new system. If those mistakes translate to streamlining, or if the steps taken for balance translate to 'dumbing' down... well that is entirely opinion.

There are perks in the armor trees to reduce armor weight and increase your speed and reduce fall damage, there are perks in 1H'd to increase swing speed, and so athletics remains... sort of.

The Magical school of Mysticism? Redundant, and quite honestly... illogical. Definitely glad that got scrapped and merged.

Levitation? Don't even get me started on the logistics of this in a mountain range, or just being able to fly directly to the Throat of the World.

Spell making? Dual-wielding provides a sort of replacement, but there is definitely room for improvement. I would like to see it come back I guess.

People don't like change, but TES has to change... or risk becoming stale and irrelevant.

Know more about the Old Way. There was nothing redundant, or illogical about Mysticism, the oldest of the magical schools. Having Psijics without Mysticism proper in Skyrim is a slap in the face to lore.

And athletics doesn't remain, at all.

As well as no acrobatics.

Dual casting is a gimmick compared to spell creation.

Change for the worse is stale and irrelevant. Not to mention most wasn't change at all, just cutting.

A lot of the people fine with cutting are newbs who didn't know what was there in the first place, how could something they didn't even know about be "stale, or irrelevant"?

Dumbed down isn't the best description, I prefer gutted. The meat of the game has been gutted, and what we're left with is a very pretty shell.

I don't need to know anything other than the English language to understand that the Magical school of Mysticism is redundant, and could easily be put into other trees.

The lore on the other hand, well... gameplay > lore for me. Especially considering how contradictory the 'lore' is.

I say good day sir.

I've only been playing since morrowind and already see the difference...

Skyrim has less skills.
In Skyrim they removed attributes replacing the calculated increases to magicka, hp, and stamina with a simple "everyone starts with 100 of each and can choose to increase by 10 per level to just one of these"
There are fewer dialog options in Skyrim than Morrowind
There are fewer weapon types (no more thrown, spears, crossbows, etc.)
There are fewer equip slots (no more separate pants, pauldrons, only one ring now, no more robes over armor, etc.)
They removed spell making.
There is less premade spells to buy (mainly because some schools like conjuration took a hit to the different creatures that can be summoned)
Enchanting is more restricted than ever now that it's separated from the spells.
There are less factions
Vampires are no longer clan based
Quest lines are shorter
Becoming a werewolf is a joke now


They added smithing in skyrim
They changed the perk system to incorporate more perks and choice. Which is what defines the character's 'class' now instead of choosing major/minor skills for leveling purposes.
They added duel wield

Graphics: Each game, at the time of release, has had great graphics.


So to say that the game isn't simpler is simply not true.

I remember when Oblivion was released and some people were livid. They moaned and complained and said it was dumbed down and blah blah blah. Skyrim focuses more on perks and it's a change that some people dislike, I personally like it.

I think gutted is also another great summation of the game as well. There are many ways to desribe Skyrim, an RPG though is not one of them.

Having Mysticism as its own school wouldn't have changed game play. Lore>bastardizing lore so its easier to understand and pick up and play for newbs. Also, know more about magic, putting most of those effects in other schools makes less sense than having a school called mysticism. Not to mention everything else that was cut that didn't get replaced, or 'moved around'.

This again?

Skryim being gutted can be argued, but the last part of your statement basically nullifies the relevance of anything you had to say.

Thanks for playing.

I said GOOD DAY!

Also, try getting the term newb out yo' mouf before you try and generalize the whole damned game.

If Skyrim has been gutted from previous TES RPG's than HOW can this be called an RPG? Is that what gutted means?

You really hate the lore
Then it probably makes no difference to you playing final fantasy or this; just the amount of "awesome" you get out of it?

Skryim is the same level of RPG to me as Deus Ex or the STALKER games. STALKER has upgradable weapons, quests and even a couple with multiple paths such as do you side with Sultan or Bear), it has hunger and sleep functions, random loot, etc. Everyone knows about Deus Ex so i don't have to explain that game. Personally I like those games and I like Skyrim but it is impossible to claim that Skyrim is anything but LESS of an RPG than the previous games. TES is supposed to be an RPG. Hell Fallout NV which is mostly shooter first and then an RPG has more RPG in its little irradiated toe than all of Skyrim.

The problem is the number of spells couldn't possibly hope to fill a mysticism school. Even moving the spells to other schools, those schools have few spells. Conjuration has the most spells, but it still only has 3 bound spells. No daggers, no armor, etc. Only one summon of each element. Dead thrall is a cool addition that I don't think existed before, but conjuration is the only school that feels semi-complete.

Even illusion has a huge gap where there is no frenzy between adept and master.

I've been casting the same fire apprentice destruction spell for 30 levels now.

It almost feels like they decided on what they could accomplish to still make some stupid 11/11/11 release date, and started trimming proposed content to make that deadline.

Well if you understood the nuances of the English language, a language that contains very few true synonyms, you would understand that mysticism isnt magic. For one, mysticism is religous in nature whereas magic may be profane.
For me, the lore is actually more important than the games.
The depth and intricacies of it I enjoy a lot.

Compromise in a nutshell. Unless it was their goal to ruin magic.

Atleast in skyrim The spell effects are actually PRETTY! And for once in The elder scrolls it was possible playing as a pure mage without mods!!!

Me being isn't.