3 words: Final Fantasy XII

BTW, 75% of this... massive Skyrim is just huge parts of the same tundra/mountain/forest landscape, which have minor changes here and there to not look like blatant copy-paste... same goes for 75% of the dungeons... in fact, the only thing I really found to be trully unique in Skyrim was Blackreach...
On the other hand, every map and dungeon in FF XII (apart from a couple fields) is completely different from all the others...

2 hours and nothing said about my post? lol i "won" the argument by default. Still the only thing that i truly miss is loss of some of my keyboard,throwing weapons,and spears.

People keep saying this but it's not actually true. There are a few quests that require quest markers, and those should have been designed more carefully, but the vast majority of them don't. I've used quest markers about half a dozen times and I've completed dozens of quests. I'm not saying that the journal shouldn't be a lot better, because it's clearly a great RP opportunity that's been allowed to lapse, but it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that the game can't be played without quest markers. The journal is one of the areas where I think most people agree that the streamlining has gone too far.

That made me chuckle. Thanks.

If you make threads that say people who like Skyrim are idiot casuals that don't know what a real RPG is, then, yeah, you're going to get people complaining about it. Both sides have committed sins in this area but I find a lot more insults coming from people criticizing the game than from people defending it. I'm right in the middle. I get both sides of the story, but I can tell you where most of the arrogance comes from.

Some people enjoy having the free form gameplay without all the statistical management. Some don't . Personally I prefer more statistical management, even if those statistics sometimes have redundant function. I would prefer attributes that have sub attributes. Example: For AGILITY I would have [(AGILITY) - DEXTERITY-EQUILIBRIUM-RHYTHYM]. I would do the same for each attritbute and increase the amount of statistics that influence your character. It's just more fun for me like that. For many of you isn't. I would also choose text dialogue over voiced everytime. Lots of you don't like to read.

People have to made decisions now and cant be the master of everything. Thats the opposite of dumbing down,because that requires some kind of imagination of the buid(where the player would be spent limited perk points).

I think some areas are watered down.There is no other excuse for removing the ability to make spells. Period.

You say that what I said was 'not true' but than you repeat what I said, does that make sense to you?

I said (and you quoted this): not all quests can be done by simply reading the description

I never said that all the quests can't be done without quest-marker. The majority can be done without quest-marker, but it is an issue that sometimes have you to switch it on because the logbook fails to say where the objective is or who I'm supposed to talk to next.

So for only a small amount of quest the quest-marker is a requirement. However for all the quests the 'dumbed down' logbook is an issue. That is, if you play the game without quest-marker. With that I mean that the text within the journal is so short and simplified that you have no clue what the quest is about if you decide to do it at a later date. So even if you manage to understand where to go next without the quest-marker than the context of the quest is still missing and it still ends up being a 'go there, just do it' kind of thing.

So the issue isnt just that some quests require the quest-marker, but that most quests aren't as fun as they used to be without context. Of course this problem is much larger than the logbook as many quests in Skyrim have been 'dumbed down' in general. They come down to basic tasks and have no personality to them. it feels as if Bethesda lacked inspiration to come up with lots of good quests but still wanted to make lots of quests. I think it would have been better if they had less stand-alone quests and more quests tied to the guilds. Because guild-quests immediatly have a personality to them as it has to be relayed to the style of the guild (warrior, thief, etc). But now I'm talking about solutions to problems that have nothing to do with dumbing down and dont belong in this thread

i fully agree with OP.

This is a good thing. Being able to master everything limits replay value and cheapens the system in ways. I don't think the old attribute system was perfect. I would have revised it to make it so you couldn't max every attribute rather than gutting it completely though. I also don't think you should be able to take every skill to 100.

What? They can't? You can be head of EVERY faction. Only exclusion there is Imperials, or Stormcloaks. Becoming master of every faction is depressingly easy. There are NO requirements. None. Zero. You have to cast ONE spell to get into the mages college, then, you don't have to cast any ever again, to become Archmage.......

Nothing prevents you from leveling every skill to 100.

Perks you say? Can't get all of them? Well, what about the poor NPC's, they can't use ANY of them. A player with a skill of 40, and a couple perks, is BETTER than an NPC with a skill of 100, and NO perks.

Answers in bold.

They want Level designing on a console, what next, Photoshop?

Um... what?

This argument makes no sense.

First of all, who says you're 25? My characters certainly aren't 25.

Also - no matter how the game starts off, you are still level 1. So even if you spent your entire life up to that point studying magic, you are still level 1 and incompetent in magic.

Your backstory is completely dependent upon your imagination, not the "class system". This argument makes absolutely no sense.

I am an Elder Scrolls veteran going back to Morrowind.

Not only did Skyrim "promise" so much, but it -met- those promises, and far exceeded my expectations and is a vast improvement over Morrowind. Please don't speak for me.

Also, the point of referencing past games is that - if it was done back then, and it's still done now, it can't be a "dumbing down", because it's the same as it was in the past.

Except that quests now have more choice in them than we've ever had before.

More choice than you've ever had before? How? you had a negative amount of choice in the past?

No it's not.

Not when the game introduces new mechanics that Spellmaking would be incompatible with.

That's not "dumbing down". That's making a functional game.

Not going to lie but this game has no depth or story and various elements in the Skyrim break TES lore in general. Would I call it dumbing down? sure if you want me too but the fact is Skyrim has no depth it has size that going for it but story wise quest line and challenge is missing altogether. Oblivion and Morrowind isn't complex but that is the problem they weren't and yet its getting worse each game. Oblivion guild quest lines you had prerequisites to be leader of that guild were they HUGE no but did add some experience to the game you don't find that in Skyrim in any of them. Oblivion's main quest had a outcome a noticeable effect on the world Skyrim is missing this "LETS KING DRAGON!!" dead "YAY KING DRAGON DEAD!! but wait there is unlimited dragons still left and no one gives a damn so who cares"

Casual players do mean idiotic, brainless, give me everything on a silver platter without any damn effort of getting anything as if they are incompetent of doing so. I don't believe a casual gamer but this is what happens in Skyrim and with each next game to their series its getting worse. Master difficulty is a joke so don't tell me to turn up difficulty this game has no challenge on top of that you can add on the various horrible game mechanics that BGS seems to not even try to get the most out of either it be imbalanced mechanics such as Alchemy, Smiting, Enchanting just if you use them let alone master them. Or the effort of their "promised" feature or selling points that some even didn't even make it into the game while the rest half implemented.

Skyrim a good game yes it is, Skyrim being in the series? no certainly but that is opinion and before you Morrowind really devoted fan stop because I started TES Oblivion and out of all of the games in the series Daggerfall wins to me. If you enjoy the gmae play it I wish I could but sadly can't because it literally has nothing that actually makes me want to play because of BGS used mechanics and the "lazy playstyle" it has. I play games to overcome challenges Skyrim has very little challenges.

Paarthurnax. That one choice in and of itself is infinitely more choice than you had in the main quest in Morrowind or Oblivion. (And no, "infinitely" is not an exaggeration. When there was "zero" before, even an increase of "one" is an infinite increase)

Escape From Chidna Mine
About Last Night
In My Time Of Need

Just 3 quests off the top of my head that are based around having numerous paths to completion. There are more, I can only think of 3 right now because I'm also focused on NFLNetwork and preparing for the 49ers playoff game today.

I quite understand not having the ability to become an astronaut in the game, it would in no way fit. One of my favorite characters to play is an old woman, based on myself. You are surely not saying that old women don't fit in the game? If so, you obviously haven't been playing the game, as i recall meeting quite a few. As an old woman, I am not athletic, I try to get by on my wits. This worked out in Daggerfall and Morrowind, I could gimp my characters athleticsm and even ability to improve athleticly in the class system. In Skyrim, all characters, burly Nords and Orcs, skinny elves, whoever, are equally athletic. Another of my favorite characters is an Orc, who is not as smart as average. In Skyrim, all characters are equally intelligent, and equally capable of learning magic.
I'm roleplaying as hard as I can to play these characters, but it was easier and more satisfying in Daggerfall, and even Morrowind. You could make characters that limited in one way or another in Daggerfall, in Skyrim you get just one hero type who can do anything. One blank character that you tack perks onto which you have to pretend are character traits.

Must be.
You cant have less choices than none without it going negative.
Im scared.

I have to support Nell here...........
I have played since Daggerfall, and the current system allows me to decide on paper....(and I am sure Nell can understand this), what my starting story is.
I even go and step it up , by giving my pc restrictions before I even start my computer up.
(one example: I have a left arm that is paralyzed from a battle with a werewolf, and cannot possibly use it. =one handed / no archery/ etc.)

Roleplay = Skyrim

Win.

OP seems to have an inordinate amount of butthurt over people using the shorthand "dumbed down." Clearly, aspects of the game have been simplified. It's not for people who are "dumb." That's just an unfortunate dig from people who are upset with the style. Quest markers, without directions are part of this style. Immortal quest givers the same. OP, you said, "But then you wouldn't be able to get the quest" in response to someone complaining about all quest givers being immortal. That's the point... a lot of people prefer a world with consequences for their actions or the world's events. It's good for people who don't want their game experience slowed by (what they consider) nonsense. It's not so good for people who want a bit more of a sim feel.

Either way, these are preferences. People are absolutely within their rights to rant about changes that happened or didn't. I'm butthurt over some of the choices, but I refuse to be butthurt by the complaints of others. That's silly.

is it a mmo ??!!!

if yes then as I said mmorpg don't count since they have "unlimited" development time, and games like wow are frankly starting to age...

and I have been around skyrim ON FOOT and I must say I found a lot of amazing places that had a "look" unique to them and frankly skyrim is breath taking I can't count the times I was walking down a mountain at early morning and mist was all around, or watching the sun set from the blade temple outside (or the temple's inside for that matter) and I just stopped and took a deep breath.

the dungeons in skyrim are great sure we don't have 100+ variations of "types" but neither did MW or OB for that matter, hell I can't remember a game that has more variety.

my only wish is that Bethesda had more money and time and people while making a TES game, in fact if I was to rule the world I would divert 50% of the planet's resources to Bethesda for 2 years and see what they can make XD (the other 50% goes to space colonization )

VERY loud applause...........