ANGRY & USELESS THREAD

Post » Wed May 16, 2012 1:50 am

Sadly that's false, my PC costed only about $150 and it runs games that the consoles would have to water down to get it running at barely 30fps.
The PC of today can deliver graphically far more than the consoles.

The difference between modern PCs and consoles is slightly higher resolution, more AA and higher texture res on the PC side.
No more, no less.
Considering the theoretical power of modern PCs, this is a joke.
I'm programming 3D graphics on PC and i know what they should be able to do in theory but fail in reality due to old concept based bottlenecks.
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john page
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 10:26 pm

Rage not tested on AMD? Let's have this quote again:
We were quite happy with the performance improvements that we had made on AMD hardware in the months before launch. We had made significant internal changes to cater to what AMD engineers said would allow the highest performance with their driver and hardware architectures
I program 3D graphics too, and my experience is that NVIDIA is superior for dynamic data, AMD for static data. That's quite a simplistic breakdown and only focussing on one area, but relevant for the specific case of Rage. I can produce benchmark cases where relatively low-end AMD hardware will absolutely wallop anything from NVIDIA so long as the data is quite static and already in GPU memory to begin with. I can produce benchmark cases where even bloody Intel graphics will wallop AMD if lots of data (in particular texture data) must be dynamically updated every frame.

This is the case irrespective of whether OpenGL or Direct3D is used.

Now, guess which one of those two cases would apply most to Rage...

(NVIDIA have definitely had driver problems too. Their 2.8.0 driver caused utter havoc for everything on my machine, including the OS. Should I blame id Software for that? No - that would be nuts.)
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Eileen Müller
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 6:37 am

Rage not tested on AMD? Let's have this quote again:

I program 3D graphics too, and my experience is that NVIDIA is superior for dynamic data, AMD for static data. That's quite a simplistic breakdown and only focussing on one area, but relevant for the specific case of Rage. I can produce benchmark cases where relatively low-end AMD hardware will absolutely wallop anything from NVIDIA so long as the data is quite static and already in GPU memory to begin with. I can produce benchmark cases where even bloody Intel graphics will wallop AMD if lots of data (in particular texture data) must be dynamically updated every frame.

I have a vague suspicion why that is the case and why AMD presents the news to include Megatexture support in hardware instead of delivering a working driver for existing cards.
AMD supported AGP way longer than Nvidia.
As far as i remember, the AGP version of their recent graphics cards needed an additional chip for translating the in and outgoing data.
The GPUs themselves available for the respective buses were the same. Maybe there's some hardware compromise in the GPU desing to get both data buses running that comflicts with continuous data streaming like the small tiles in Rage's Megatexture.

So maybe this is a hardware problem and not just a driver problem after all. I already mentioned this on Booty Sweats thread about "AMD implementing megatexture in hardware".
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Lucie H
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 8:34 am


So maybe this is a hardware problem and not just a driver problem after all. I already mentioned this on Booty Sweats thread about "AMD implementing megatexture in hardware".

That seems like a real possibility and the reasons for it appear to clearly involve compromises AMD made leading up to their new GCN architecture. GCN is a more modular design capable of having complete modules chopped off to fit it onto an APU and with each module capable of running different programs altogether. You can literally use the same graphics card to play a game while also using it to do gpu compute functions for another unrelated program in the background without affecting the game. Thus you could have a trinity APU running the software and doing physics and AI, while the discrete gpu does partially resident textures, tessellation, and other compute functions all simultaneously. Instead of merely relying on faster cpus and gpus, it relies on leveraging the maximum bandwidth for specific tasks. Keeping more of the circuitry busy at any given time if the task demands it.

The new hardware acceleration for PRT also follows this more flexible philosophy by using the system ram if necessary as virtual memory. Its all about maximizing the possible bandwidth available on any given system and putting everything to work as often as possible on as many different tasks as possible. Since the average game today uses perhaps 1/4 of the available bandwidth in pci-e 3.0 and companies like IBM are working to produce new memory standards sometimes magnitudes faster then the existing dram technology this is an area of under utilized bandwidth ripe for exploiting. The potential gains to be made far exceed anything possible merely by increasing the speed of a single cpu or gpu dedicated to doing fewer tasks at once. All of that, however, came at the cost of AMD having to make specific compromises in their previous architectures building up to GCN which might have included making it less friendly to PRT knowing full well they would eventually switch to hardware acceleration anyway.
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BRIANNA
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 12:01 am

Numb [censored]s think console only little slower the pc , lol guess u haven't played bf3 maxed out.
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Timara White
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:49 am

I get paid by word for these post. The more often you respond with gibberish, the more money I make so please don't stop whatever you do. You're helping to put my kids through college.

That's the kind of humour I like Wuli, not very new, but funny anyway...You deserve your pay check...

As for my gibberishing, please read my last post, you know the one where I can play Rage on the very same hardware. Yes I know, the memory handling of Win 7 64 bits...But the same GC...? Is it still okay with your theory? Don't think you'll be very convincing buddy...Maybe "they" should lower your wages after all... :wink:

But you know what? You finally convinced me : it was childish to blame it only on id...really, I mean it. BUT I still think they (id and Bethesda) should'nt have released the game like this, 'cause AMD does not make games going gold. Or does it? Pleeeeaaaase...Don't do do that! Mercy!

Cheers!
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Kara Payne
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 5:54 am

That's the kind of humour I like Wuli, not very new, but funny anyway...You deserve your pay check...

As for my gibberishing, please read my last post, you know the one where I can play Rage on the very same hardware. Yes I know, the memory handling of Win 7 64 bits...But the same GC...? Is it still okay with your theory? Don't think you'll be very convincing buddy...Maybe "they" should lower your wages after all... :wink:

But you know what? You finally convinced me : it was childish to blame it only on id...really, I mean it. BUT I still think they (id and Bethesda) should'nt have released the game like this, 'cause AMD does not make games going gold. Or does it? Pleeeeaaaase...Don't do do that! Mercy!

Cheers!

You still don't get it do you? Its the hardware AND the software. AMD's drivers have to be compatible with every possible hardware and software configuration imaginable. You can have the exact same hardware as someone else, but if you run a different web browser it can mess up their driver whenever you play Rage. Again, that's not the game's problem, but the hardware manufacturer's problem. Their driver just don't like some programs.
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Tamara Dost
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 11:35 pm

You still don't get it do you? Its the hardware AND the software. AMD's drivers have to be compatible with every possible hardware and software configuration imaginable. You can have the exact same hardware as someone else, but if you run a different web browser it can mess up their driver whenever you play Rage. Again, that's not the game's problem, but the hardware manufacturer's problem. Their driver just don't like some programs.
Well...I guess I'm hopless. But thanks to you, I can see clearly now where the problem is,...I have not the slightest doubt...
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Laura Richards
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 12:59 pm

I'd recommend that people have a look at this.

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=13&page=1

These are the official OpenGL forums, and here you will find bug reports from professional programmers and responses from hardware vendor engineers. I'm not putting this forward as evidence of any kind in the specific case of Rage, so don't even think of trying to go down that route. I am putting this forward as evidence that driver bugs can and do exist, that AMD in particular are notorious for them, that their engineers are actually quite responsive in terms of getting fixes in (I've personally found Intel to also be good at this, but I've never had to sbmit a bug report to NVIDIA so I can't comment there), and that none of that detracts from the fact that while the bug remains unfixed, things that should work - don't.

This is primarily for the benefit of those who remain insistent that AMD can do no wrong. I'd like to draw their attention in particular to the AMD engineer's repsonse to the post "ATI driver bug with glBindSampler" - and in particular this part of the response:
Yes, it is a driver bug
Is that relevant to Rage? Don't know. Is it relevant to the general topic of driver bugs being a cause of trouble for end-users? Hell, yes.
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Eliza Potter
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 11:31 pm

@Jimmy Shelter:
What most users just don't understand is the complexity involved in zillions of different hardware combinations communicating via software drivers to graphics and operating system libraries, which are used by millions of individual programmers with individual coding styles using differing programming languages to make programs that have to work on every imaginable system at any given situation.

So even if the casual user doesn't understand what programmers are doing and how hardware/software interaction really works, it's a good idea for them to take a glimpse at software development to get an impression of what this madness is all about.

Sometimes i'm wondering why this chaotic way of creating software is working AT ALL... ;-)
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Melanie
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 10:33 am

@Jimmy Shelter:
What most users just don't understand is the complexity involved in zillions of different hardware combinations communicating via software drivers to graphics and operating system libraries, which are used by millions of individual programmers with individual coding styles using differing programming languages to make programs that have to work on every imaginable system at any given situation.

So even if the casual user doesn't understand what programmers are doing and how hardware/software interaction really works, it's a good idea for them to take a glimpse at software development to get an impression of what this madness is all about.

Sometimes i'm wondering why this chaotic way of creating software is working AT ALL... ;-)

Its controlled chaos spawning mass insanity and the amazing thing is programmers have actually made progress in taming the beast. They'll have to do a lot better though with the number of PC projected to double in the next ten years.
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My blood
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 am

It's a minor miracle that anything even works at all.

I suspect that a large part of it is down to a change in PC gamer's expectations that I'd date to sometime after the release of Doom 3. It's quite clar that these days PC gamers are of the opinion that a PC is just a form of more powerful console, and that the old compatibility and configuration problems are long gone. It's also quite clear that this is not actually the case at all. If you buy a PC you're not just buying something that is more powerful than a console, you are also buying something that will give you trouble at some time in the future. So you shouldn't be surprised or upset when it does.
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 pm

It's a minor miracle that anything even works at all.

I suspect that a large part of it is down to a change in PC gamer's expectations that I'd date to sometime after the release of Doom 3. It's quite clar that these days PC gamers are of the opinion that a PC is just a form of more powerful console, and that the old compatibility and configuration problems are long gone. It's also quite clear that this is not actually the case at all. If you buy a PC you're not just buying something that is more powerful than a console, you are also buying something that will give you trouble at some time in the future. So you shouldn't be surprised or upset when it does.

That's the price of success. The cheaper and more hassle free PC gaming becomes the more people we'll have demanding it be absolutely idiot proof. Consoles are becoming more like PCs and PCs more like consoles. About the only ray of sunshine is that rasterization is reaching its limits and serious graphics improvements from ray casting are a long way off. Improvements like tessellation, PRT, gpu physics, and AI don't really require faster processors and ever more powerful graphics cards and are just refinements on old technology. Without continuing dramatic graphics improvements such as games like Crysis introduced more people will avoid high end PC gaming and go for the instant gratification of consoles and cheaper PCs.
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Mandy Muir
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:17 am

It's quite clar that these days PC gamers are of the opinion that a PC is just a form of more powerful console, and that the old compatibility and configuration problems are long gone. It's also quite clear that this is not actually the case at all. If you buy a PC you're not just buying something that is more powerful than a console, you are also buying something that will give you trouble at some time in the future.

I guess users of today are used :biggrin: to use hardware that actually works as more and more people move away from the good old configurable pc to notebooks, netbooks and smartphones which have a fixed hardware and therefore are more reliable.
The software you use on the latter will more likely work as those types of hardware (especially smartphones) have the same advantage as consoles have.
A more unified hardware architecture worldwide.
The pc also suffers from the attempt to make it easier to handle by reducing the need for in depth hardware knowledge moving all the responisbility for a reliable system from users to the programmer. You'll remember that we had that topic before.

In my opinion, the pc doesn't work that way. PCs are more like classic cars that are kept alive by stuffing them up with modern parts.
It just doesn't work. If a system is completely configurable, it needs to be simple.
PCs over the last 20 years worked pretty well as most of the technology stayed rather simple and the math power advantage was achieved by brute force, like raising clock speeds and adding memory. As we know, raising clock speeds is not really an option anymore since the good old silicon won't let us do so and energy consumption is becoming a serious problem.

The configurability always comes at the expense of speed and reliability so the usual pc related problems are more obvious today than they were 20 years ago when users were accustomed to do everything by themselves.
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MatthewJontully
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:09 am

That's the price of success. The cheaper and more hassle free PC gaming becomes the more people we'll have demanding it be absolutely idiot proof. Consoles are becoming more like PCs and PCs more like consoles.

Which is an antagonism in itself. PCs were never easy to use due to their concept and in my opinion they shouldn't be.
The user needs a minimum amount of knowledge to configure a complex system like a pc, otherwise it is prone to fail.
As long as you use a pc for what it was originally designed, a business machine for office work, you won't run into problems.
But the modern multimedia world really shows up the age of that old IBM concept.

This is were the consoles and or netbooks/smartphones come in with their simple interface and unconfigurable hardware.
Maybe this is a user generation change. I'd even say that the guys who actually understand what's going on under the hud, in other words: the people that made the pc succesful, will die out over the next decades.
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Brandon Bernardi
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 8:24 am

Which is an antagonism in itself. PCs were never easy to use due to their concept and in my opinion they shouldn't be.
The user needs a minimum amount of knowledge to configure a complex system like a pc, otherwise it is prone to fail.
As long as you use a pc for what it was originally designed, a business machine for office work, you won't run into problems.
But the modern multimedia world really shows up the age of that old IBM concept.

This is were the consoles and or netbooks/smartphones come in with their simple interface and unconfigurable hardware.
Maybe this is a user generation change. I'd even say that the guys who actually understand what's going on under the hud, in other words: the people that made the pc succesful, will die out over the next decades.

The PC has always resembled a tower of Babel with a thousand different architects directing the action. When and if its necessary they do simplify things and try to speak the same language, but there's no denying the progress that's been made despite the resulting mess sometimes resembling a steaming pile on your breakfast. Most of it is disposable technology largely forgotten as soon as its out the door. Today's supercomputer on a smart phone becomes tomorrow's paper weight and the average desktop is given away or thrown away every four years or so. My power supply is rated for ten years continuous use, but will likely become as useless as a magneto for future upgrades. Its not a sign the PC is somehow inherently different from any other device, merely that the rate of progress is insane and consumers are willing to compromise to get the next big thing as fast and as cheap as possible.
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Queen of Spades
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 12:39 am

Like http://www.abit.com.tw/page/en/index.php probably forgotten now by most but was the first to offer http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/softmenu,1.html for overclocking. I worked with Abit for many years.
A big advance at the time for the PC and a small overclocking community. Now days its a big selling point for the computer enthusiast.
Still pretty hot but looks like it could become something of the past with in the next 20 years or so as technology moves forward.


abit SoftMenu
The original jumperless motherboard design allows for CPU setting changes completely through the BIOS.
For GigaOverclocking! Boost your PC's Performance by up to 50%. Convenient and easy-to-use fine tuning from within a self-explanatory BIOS menu.
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Music Show
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 4:19 am

AMD Athlon II X3 645
Processor 3.10 GHZ
4.00 GB (3.10 GB usable)
64-bit Operating System
Windows 7 Home Premium
NVIDIA GeForce 6150SE nforce 430
Driver 10/15/2011 8.17.12.8562

I installed RAGE Anarchy Edition on my computer and found like many others it will not work. I my case it will not even start, I just get a spinning wheel, then, nothing. Steam says Game not available, try later? I have no idea if the up- dates are even installed. I found out one thing when dealing with a third party to install and verify software, It does not work without problems. I have 3 games that have went through steam, and each one is a problem.

Anyhow; I have current driver and updates on the computer and no idea if RAGE is updated. I got to read about the updates and cannot seem to find them. I do not know IF STEAM put them in or not. Like many others I have used ID for many years. I started with finding Hitler and then the DOOM serious and so on. Other than controller issues mostly worked fine. But this is a joke and a bad one at that. It may very well be the most tested bug free game on the market however; it was most likely developed on hardware that was not released yet, rather than the average of what people already owned.

The flaw with developing software that way is it will not work on most people’s machines. Only the most hard core gamer can play this and I will guess that there is not as many hard core players as casual players. I am very disappointed in what ID has done and they knew exactly what they were trying to do. They rolled the dice most people would not care; well they were wrong! I have the RAGE ID software and it is not even worth the powder it would take to blow it to hell.

Make whatever excuse you want but, ID developed the software based on the hard core gamers and the video card companies. Just not on the majority of the casual people that spend their money and are the bread and butter or life blood of any company.

Now how do I fix this, because it will not even start in the first place… ???????
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Sammykins
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 1:03 pm

Blaming id or Carmack is like yelling at the waitress because the cook is drunk. Every single AAA title released this fall has had serious driver issues from both AMD and Nvidia despite the fact there are only a half dozen of them and there can't be a dozen big selling titles a year. Since AMD and Nvidia don't really have any competition they might as well be the drunk cook in the kitchen having a good laugh watching you yell at the waitress.
Carmack is the cook. This driver nonsense is just that.
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JD bernal
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:20 am

NVIDIA GeForce 6150SE
There's your problem straight away. The minimum NVIDIA for Rage is an 8800 - http://www.bethblog.com/2011/09/06/rage-system-requirements/

I'm sorry, but there's nothing in what you said that's relevant. You really should check these things before buying.
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Jessie
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 3:43 am

I did not say that I did not have a machine that will run the game; I said the game was not set up for the casual player on the average machine, did I not? What was done is this game was designed and set up on a high end machine and not the middle of the road. So do not be surprised when a game; that for many years was the game to have and the leader of the pack, ends up in the dumper and worse trashed by the people that supported ID for many years!

Another example of a bad joke is DUKE NUKEM. Everyone waited for the new updated game and what came out was nothing more than the old game. A lot of people are unhappy about the wait and the outcome. You see; you just cannot please everyone no matter how hard you try. This is no different than Microsoft Flight Simulator X and it was a memory hog. Not until people got more memory on the cards did the game start working correctly. It did however run, not correctly, it did run and that is more than Rage is doing.

As I say I also have a machine that is 64bit with twin 3d video cards, because I edit my home videos and play videos with it. Where ID made the mistake and is losing mega bucks is leaving the middle of the road people that supported them for years, behind. Management made the decision and management bares the responsibility for it.

Patch the game so it will run on an average machine and the only one that will lose the full effects is the average player. What may very well happen is simply this; the average player may see or get an idea of what they are missing and buy an updated video card to run the game correctly. When the game will not run at all, they just cry foul, and buy nothing, then toss the game and most likely will not buy another ID game.
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barbara belmonte
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 2:58 am

A GeForce 8800 is not high-end by any means - in 2011/2012 it's actually very low-end (it's 5 year old hardware for crying out loud) and at least 3 generations behind current. Likewise your 6150 is not middle of the road or average. It was firmly low-end when originally released (the 6600 was middle of the road back then) and is now 7 years out of date. To put that into perspective - claiming that this part is "average" is similar to claiming that an original 3DFX Voodoo 1 or an original Pentium 100 was "average" in 2003. Expecting Rage to run on a 6150 is like expecting Half-Life 2 to run on a Voodoo Banshee. Get real.

So no - you actually did not say "the game was not set up for the casual player on the average machine". You said that the game was not set up for crap obsolete low-end hardware that was always crap to begin with, even in it's day.

The average middle-of-the-road el-cheapo "multimedia PC" nowadays has some kind of Intel HD graphics chip in it - and these support Rage and run it quite well. Hell, even an ancient Intel 945 would likely outperform the 6150.
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Grace Francis
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 10:39 am

Hm... as far as I know id has always pushed people's PC's to the limits. Even though any [censored] box can play Doom now, I'm pretty sure there's a reason it was frame capped at its release time.

So no, even though I'd like Id's games to be for the casual PC owner, I'm glad they're not. That way we upgrade, and that way games look more and more beautiful.
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Sudah mati ini Keparat
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 2:48 am

Then do this for me; tell me why the game went from (in round figures) from $60 a piece to a price of $20 each. Is it because, it is a game that is very darn near perfect, and we are now getting a brake in price. Could it be, as I have suggested, that it will not play on the run of the road machine and the word has spread via the internet?

I would guess a large group of people have computers that are at least 4 to 5 years old. If they are not broke then why replace it, and of course they do not. If and I say if the game will not work on their machines then why buy a new video card? They cannot even see what they are missing and as such posts saying how disappointed the masses are; are showing up in the first place.

The proof that I may be close in what I am saying is simply, the number of games sold and now how fast they are moving off the store shelf. Want more proof? Look to see just how many times people have looked for patches on steam for rage, as compared to other games. Say what you will, but a lot of people have older machines….
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Jeff Tingler
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 12:16 am

You could probably pick up a GT240 for 50 or under. The GT240 plays Rage just as well as my GTX480.
I just did a test with the EVGA GT240, only difference I saw was it was a little darker than my GTX480.
Nothing that couldn't be fixed by simply jumping into the video setting and upping the brightness.
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HARDHEAD
 
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