George Lucas is renowned for this stuff. There is actually quite a bit evidence that the upcoming live action Star Wars tv program will be about a group of bounty hunters who end up travelling back in time and preventing Anakin from becoming Darth Vader, thus making the original series never happen. I read the article sometime last week, lemme see if I can find it again.

Lucas has never been a fan of the original trilogy, because he didn't direct all of it. Pretty much none of the finished original trilogy content was George's idea.

EDIT: VERY CONVENIENTLY THE ARTICLE HAS BEEN REMOVED.

I read that on IGN. It would be horrible. Time travel in Star Wars would be ridiculous. I can imagine the confusion with dead characters never being "dead".

Next thing you know, there will be a "Head of Count Dooku and Jango Fett" trilogy, as well as a "Quest for Mace Windu's arm."

The word "soldiers" is bolded for emphasis. The Death Star was built to destroy planets, not soldiers. It wasn't built to take out enemy battle ships, because it's obviously to slow for that. It's only use is for terrorism... the complete annihilation of civilian populations.


Yes, in the same way that German personnel who worked in the death camps were evil, even if they didn't work the gas chambers. They were working as part of a machine to designed for mass murder.


Yes.


"Some innocent people may have died." Fascinating choice of words. The Imps blow up a planet with a population of billions, and "some" of them "may" have been innocent.

Fine, fine. The Sith are your pet faction and they can do no wrong. Such is the nature of fandom.


Hmm... Big men in heavy armor, slapping Padawan Anakin and telling him to stop acting like a whiny, spoiled punk. I might enjoy that.

I get it, you want to be part of the community that believes in "evil" and "good" and that morality exists. It's cool, plenty of people like you around. I love how the some of the Imps are considered to be in the "wrong place, at the wrong time. And most are evil because they simply cooks and soldiers working in an organization they believe is good. The logic in that is skewed. But it's Star Wars, where the "good guys" are incapable of "evil", and the "bad guys" incapable of "good".

I won't argue, because your obviously tied to the concept of morality and "right" and "wrong."

Yes, I think vaporizing hundreds of millions of babies is wrong. I'm funny that way.

"From you're point of view."

I must be comical as well, since I believe a group of rebel terrorists are a bunch of saints.

I never said the rebels were saints. I think they are the lesser evil, in that they cause less destruction and are less harmful to liberty. What they will do once they are in power is another question. Historically, rebellions tend to transition into tyranny rather quickly.

Wait, wait. You seem to be suggesting here that you are a moral nihilist. Are you not the same person who wrote this?


So, let me get this straight. I'm some kind of whacky goofball who believes in the quaint idea of morality for suggesting that murdering billions of people is "evil", and yet you simultaneously state that the Jedi are "inherently evil" for asking their voluntary followers to stifle their emotions?

Your moral nihilism seems to pop up only when you want to defend the Sith, and then conveniently vanish when talking about the Jedi or rebels.

You like to press the issue, don't you? I just realized how far the thread has derailed.

My point is: The Jedi are not as good as people make them to be. They can be just as "bad" and just as "evil". Because they do acts that most would consider "good" but are not as perfect in their own ideals. Time and time again, they have shown themselves to be hypocrites. If I were to truly use the word evil in this sense, then it would be used to describe the Jedi. As most would would consider the Sith to be evil, when the Jedi themselves do things which are questionable to their own nature.

Example: Order 66 was totally wrong in the perspective of most people. Many Jedi died, being shot down by the very soldiers which fought alongside them. Yet the Revenge of the Sith was just that. Revenge for centuries of oppression and near genocide against their people, even regular citizens(In the Old Republic). Now, Darth Vader is considered evil because he slaughtered Jedi younglings, yet the Jedi have a history of the same act in the "Taris Padawan Massacre" where a Jedi had a vision that the students would turn to the Dark Side. So he went forth and killed them because they would serve a darker shade of the Force. Also, manipulation and deception is "very wrong". Sidious deceived and manipulated Anakin to the Dark Side. Yet, a group of Jedi captured Darth Revan after he was knocked unconscious, wiped his memory away and manipulated him to do their bidding while they brainwashed him with their own ideals? See where I am going? It's a matter of perspective.

"Good is a point of view."

If anything would be considered evil, it would probably be the Jedi and the Republic. Yes, the Sith have their own actions which the majority would consider to be evil. But the actions that the Jedi themselves do at times, and create meager justifications. The only difference is that the Sith aren't hypocrites and they embrace such ideals. Since you are not a Star Wars fan, I don't expect you to understand material outside of the movies. So I really see no point in continuing. Although I'll have a civil conversation rather than flame

Sorry. But you seemed to want to have a philosophical conversation about Star Wars, and I obliged. When you expose your philosophy to public scrutiny, it will be scrutinized.

I will agree with you 100% that the Jedi are hypocrites. And their very sterile philosophy also makes them dreadful for role playing. But I say stuff it to the Jedi and the Sith. I'm independent, baby.

I wasn't specific in the first post regarding the subject. I meant in a way. And glad we at least agree on something

Independence is good. Respects.

On Darth Maul:

Darth Nihilius from Kotor II is literally an etheral entity of the Dark-side, his human form was destroyed long ago and he's literally just a ghost.

Darth Sion from Kotor II as well had his body utterly destroyed. His skeleton was reduced to dust, his skin was shredded to pieces and his mind turned to mush, somehow the dark-side perserves him

Darth Malak had the lower-half of his face sliced off by Darth Revan

General Grevious from Revenge of the Sith is an asthmastic robot

Darth Vader suffered from full limb-amputations, he was lit on fire and basically lost his entire outter body, yet he's a live through the wonders of technology and the dark-side.

Boba Fett was swallowed whole by a massive sarlaac that is virtually inescapable, but (at least in the extended universe) he makes it out

Starkiller was stabbed in the heart and launched into deep space, but was perserved somehow

it's ridiculous, but hey, when you really think about it it's not that crazy for a guy sliced in half to survive.

I also agree that the whole "Jedi Code" is rather self-defeating, I'm not going to bother going into the other moral debate. The Jedi demand its members to dehumanize themselves for the sake of preserving those very things in civilization.
that being said, doesn't Luke Skywalker in the EU actually condemn these anti-emotion and draconian practices? In the Jedi knight series Kyle Katarn is a very powerful Jedi, who's officially part of the Order, that Luke regards as one of his right-hand men, but he's also devoutly attached and married to Jan Ores. there're quite a few examples in the post Ep. 6 lore to suggest that Luke radically reformed the Jedi code and what Jedi was allowed and not allowed to do.

for that matter, in Kotor Jolie Bindo's whole story revolves around his distates with both the Jedi Order and the Sith. He hated the Jedi because they condemned his love for his wife whom he secretly married. they accused him of being susceptible to the Dark side, and he was ultimately exiled. He hates them for that because he knows full well he won't fall, and he hates the Sith as much in exile as he did as an official Jedi.

Yep. Forgot those people. Funny is that most where Sith with the exception of Boba Fett and General Grievious. Starkiller was a Dark Jedi, but he still used the Dark Side. I just hope his survival is explained in the series. So far the series is darkening with undead creatures and General Grievious stabbing a old lady after he spent his time hacking away at some witches. It will probably be a Dark Side kept him alive thing. It was the case with Sion and Darth Vader.

I woke up the other day to an episode of The Clone Wars and it was with the witches fighting the army of droids general Grievous was leading. I have a couple questions... Are the witches independent of both Imperial and Rebel forces? Do the witches use the force, or some kind of separate magic? Why is Grievous such a dike?

The witches are part of a group known as the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nightsister. From what I understand they use the Force. Mostly the Dark Side of the Force. And from what I understand, they're normally independent.

That Jedi don't make good bad guys. The Sith are suppose to be like the ultimate evil bad guys but the jedi order is evil itself to begin with.

Like the arguement that a jedi could leave the order at any time, they can't. The order takes them from their family at a young age they are abandoned by the only people they could count on, this is how cult mind control works they isolate a person they have no where to else to go or rely on, while their brainwashed with this ideal of being a perfect member.
Where do they go like the order gives them an allowence so they can just take off and get a ticket to another planet and a motel room? They force them into training to be emotionless killers in combat while brain washing the recruits to be the future leaders of their order and do their dirty work.

The Jedi are evil. Search your feelings, you will know it to be true.

I'm not a fan of the empire by any means but crushing a rebellion is their duty as a government entity for the safety and security of people under their rule. Not to mention the emperor was elected by the Republic.

edit: about the tv series. I remember reading about it a few years ago originally it was suppose to be about non-jedi. Then a few years go by and jedi were going to be a big focus of the show, then after that lucas said it would be way to expensive to do a show with current technology and it was scrapped iirc.

I didn't say that the Jedi don't make good bad guys, I said that they don't make good Sith. There is a large difference between the two. A Jedi must place others above themselves and must not give in to corruption or greed. A Jedi who leaves the order and ignores the teachings to the point of being a danger does not make a good candidate for a successful Sith Lord. A Jedi is taught their entire life that they must be utterly selfless and not give in to the dark side, the only thing that will make them do an act that would come easy to a Sith is when they are in extreme states of uncontrolled emotion. A Sith will do something like killing younglings easily because s/he would control their emotions and it would be completely their choice. Vader thought himself a Sith and Darth Sidious even gave him the honourific of "Darth", but he did not understand the true nature of the Sith. A true Sith understands that power is not the goal, freedom is.

The Phantom Menace was made for kids in mind. The originals were made with everyone in mind. Technically they are crap. Yes I've seen those Plinkett reviews and yes....I agree with them. I'm not someone who watched the Plinkett reviews and became enlightened. I always felt there were many things wrong with the film.

99% of the ppl who liked Phantom Menace were kids. B/c they don't know any better.

Yet one can leave the Jedi Order at any time. If someone doesn't want to live by their rigid standards, they can simply quit. If they break too many of the rules (barring actual crimes like murder or treason), they may be expelled, with no real punishment beyond that. Yes the whole "no attachments" thing is stupid and probably causes more trouble than it solves. But the Jedi aren't forced to do anything, they do everything and obey the Order's rigid rules willingly, fully aware they can walk away whenever they want.

Precisely. All that is required of the Sith is that they be themselves and make their own choices, acknowledging the truth that real peace does not exist? and pursuing their goals with the fullness of their passion. This is not, in and of itself, "evil". It is, at it's core, a celebration of freedom and humanity.


It is consider to be Dark Side sorcery most often. Darth Zannah used it before(She could create horrific images and make people rip their own eyes out in fear). They are independend, as Crimson Paladin said. In the series, Dooku wants the witches to join him against the Jedi, but she refused, simply stating that the witches allegienaces are to each other. She did help Dooku one time, but that was because he helped her once. So it was in a way, a mutual agreement.

Now to be honest, I believe Mother Taolzin is manipulating everyone. She used magic against Dooku, giving the man a very painful experience that he was going to die from. So if she had the power to do that all along, why even bother sending Ventress and her "sisters" to risk their lives to try and kill him? Or bother loooking for a Dathomirian zabrak male(Darth Maul species) and use Darth Maul's brother as a double agent of sorts?

To me, she is simply creating all this chaos so the Sith can eventually fight against each other. Because so far she's been fighting against them, not the Republic. Perhaps vengeance for taking Ventress or something? I don't know. But I can imagine she just wanted Savage Opress to bring back Darth Maul so he can cause even more chaos.

The do make good sith, because they are sith except instead of the rule of two they create entire councils. Their jedi code is a mind control technique to make their members docile and easier to control while also being a propoganda victory for those outside the order so people don't suspect their up to trying to conquer the universe.
Vader was an awesome sith because he was never truely freed from slavery until he joined up with the emperor. Notice when he was owned by an alien it called it by name, when the jedi took him he calls them master. When a cult takes a person they try to isolate them from their family and discourages contact while making the person loyal to their cult, they also make them ultra reliant on the cult by taking their possessions, what is a jedis most valuable and probably only real possession besides the clothes on their back? A lightsaber. Look what happens to jedi that leave the order obi-wan/yoda they live in a cave for decades cause they have no job skills to live in a civilized society.
If the jedi are so selfless why are they cool with something as inhuman and cruel as slavery? They were fully aware slavery is happening on tatooine, even one of their members family was there they could of at least informed the republic to do something about it but they chose not to.
The high jedi high council commissoned the clone army, I suspect they were building up councils of force users to occupy sections of the galaxy when they take over but obivously finding so many high in midiclorian count takes too long so they went with a clone army.
If they were selfless why didn't they free the clones? Yoda chose to use them as his personal army. What's even worse than that is the jedi outfitted them in big sluggish heavy armor that slows them down but does nothing to protect them from a single blaster shot so they are like sitting ducks the jedi use as human shields during charges in battle.
Vader had to kill the young ones because the jedi would of done anything to stop sidious, these are not average children the are small, have telekenisis, and you even see one cut down a bunch of troopers with a light sabre they don't need strength with a weapon like that. The jedi would of sent these kids as assassins after sidious. how many different ways could they try to assassinate a ligitimite politician with their telekenisis, or just flat out try to get past body gaurds and cut him with with a light saber being small their a harder target for people to shoot, they can deflect blaster bolts, and sever limbs.
Plus if those kids didn't want to be killed they could of left the order at any time. Unfortunately they didn't because the order brain washed them to further their ultimate goals of galactic conquest.

I'm not going to get into the whole philosophical debate going on here, but I just want to point out that Obi-Wan and Yoda where living in such isolation because they were hiding from the Emperor, not because they were socially [censored].

i dont recall the jedi ever sending children on assassination missions, i don't recall the jedi ever being sent on assassination missions, and there is no evidence of the jedi brainwashing anyone, the kids stayed more likely because their parents sent them off to join the jedi.

it was a jedi gone sith who commissioned the clone army, and the standard white outfits were never portrayed as heavy

tatooine is not republic space, and simply freeing the slaves would have either caused all their explosive implants to detonate or left their wallets with a negative weight on the scale. qui-gon said it himself, the jedi were not there to free the slaves, and to just suddenly abolish the slavery could have been more catastrophic then you realize

your forgetting that anakin CHOSE to join the jedi, he was never forced to join them, don't you remember the part where anakin was freed from slavery and asked "does this mean i get to become a jedi", qui-gon didn't answer yes, he said it was up to anakin. and you claimed he was free after joining sidious... and said he was not free when he was a jedi because he called his teachers master... your forgetting that vader addressed Sidious "My Lord", which is the same as addressing someone as master

and since i've said all that, sith have never used their powers to obtain freedom, they have always used it to control.

1 paragraph: Vader made a good Jedi when he was Anakin. But he was not as much as a good Sith as he could of been if he did not suffer life threatening injuries. I posted a few pages back why Vader is not a good Sith compared to Maul, Tyranus and Sidious. He wanted to save his wife, that was his entire reason for joining the Dark Side. He could care less about Sidious or about the Empire. All he cared was about Padme. When she died, he became a broken shadow of himself with nothing else to live for but to kill Sidious and perhaps kill himself until he discovered Luke existed. He didn't even like Sidious that much. The books as well as the movies state this. One is where he tells Luke that they both can destroy the Emperor and restore order in the galaxy.

"You can't, he must stand trial. I need him!" Anakin did not want Sidious to die because he believed that killing Sidious would mean destroying a way to save his wife. I am willing to bet once he saved Padme, he would go ahead and overthrow Sidious.

"I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him. And together you and I can rule the galaxy."-Darth Vader.

3rd paragraph: The younglings were not totally defenseless. But compared to a newly appointed Sith Lord, how much of a chance did they stand? Of course, we did see a young Jedi cut down three Clone troopers before he was shot down before Bail Organa.

Yes, he became Darth Vader, full fledged Sith apprentice. He just killed tons of Jedi and wiped out the seperatists he so wanted to destroy in the Clone Wars, and he was told he single handedly brought peace and justice to the Empire. Now he wants to kill the Chancellor and save Padme from death. He could care less about the grudge the Sith had against the Jedi for thousands of years. Hell, he cried when he killed the seperatists and realized he was Darth Vader, but he also was too far too come back. Darth Maul was raised as a boy to feel hatred, pain and anger. For one of his training Sidious threw a poisoous snake and locked it with him when he was a child just to see if he was worthy enough to survive. That's not counting the months of starving in a remote planet while being hunted by assassin droids with no weapons.

Darth Vader did feel remorse for killing the younglings. Darth Maul killed an entire training facility full of students he trained with at the age of fiteen because of his Sith training. He wanted revenge against the Jedi, so everything that he was told to kill, he killed without remorse. Vader did, but deep inside he felt regret. I can name a few other Sith but Darth Maul was of good age when he started training(He was picked off as a baby) while Anakin was eight years old. But hey, it's not too far.

Now on the assassination: Who knows what the Jedi could do? It was desperate times that required desperate measures. It's not every day that the Jedi face extinction at the hands of their own soldiers, or that their Chosen One became a Sith Lord under the Supreme Chancellor. I am willing to bet they would of sent as much of their own as possible if they had the chance. Shaak Ti fought back with the younger padawans, but retreated when she had the chance. So you're right on that point.

Wow that just completely missed the point. I'm not talking about what the Jedi are or what the Sith are. I'm saying that their philosophies and ideals are so vastly different that one who was brought up in one group will not be able to truly excel in the other. Vader was tricked by Darth Sidious into helping him destroy the Jedi in order to save his lover. Sith are entirely about sacrifice so that nothing will stand in the way of their goals, this does not come naturally to a Jedi and it never will.

I'm talking about the philosophy of these two groups, you are fixating on your assumptions and ignoring what actually makes them different.