You guys are letting Sawyer pwn you.
Do something

Not to mention even if you kill the Legion at The Fort they don't run away probably fearing Death if the legion ends up killing you and then rounding up the runaways
Though that may just be an oversight

To be honest, I thought the Legion seemed pretty logical in its methodology. If you try to remove quaint notions about the "sanctity" of a human life it boils down to the laws of economics.... and if a system works, it will work no matter what ideology you are using as a contrast when examining it. A lot of people in the US have a hard time understanding this because it does not fit with a lot of religious teachings in the communities they were raised in. No matter how you try to show the objective reason why something works they will have a nagging feeling that it should not work because it is not "right".

Just something off the top of my head while sleep is calling.....

I found my hate for the Legion while walking down the road to Cottonwood Cove
They take torture too far for minor things
But Caesar's legion won't last like Marcus said
They don't believe in it , They believe in Caesar

When people get into a regimented lifestyle they will follow the rhythm of the routine because they are attuned to it after a while..... just like anything else people become accustomed to their situation. Just look at all of the dysfunctional relationships that people stay in for no sane reason.

There have been studies where even simulating being oppressed will leave most people very docile. No-one knows what sets off rebellions in some populations and not in others, but it never seems to start spontaniously, has to be the right time, set of circumstances and right leading agitator.

Still
If i'm a slave for 4 years first good chance i get i'm running
Courier should at least be able to get them to leave

They don't actually speak Latin. They speak English with a bunch of Latin phrases.

Nah, i still see the Legion as a good faction, i prefer them than a Mad Max esque slavers



How is that possible in a gray and gray moriality world?

Actually, it was two thousand years.

Because Black and white DO exist, some people, not very commonly, are paradigms of humanity, just as there are serial killers with no remorse or emotion over what they did. The thing is, people often say 'There is no good and no evil, just shades of grey', which simply is not true, the more accurate truth is the there is black, grey, and white. But the grey is a dominate number on the chart. Of course, in a game like Fallout: New Vegas, people say NCR are the good guys, House is the neutral, and the Legion are the evil (Yes Man is invalid in this as it depends per player) But the thing is, people are defining things based on alot of social norms ideas of the word 'good and evil' so the Legion are typically going to be called evil, but some see the Legions behavior as a means to an end. I see House as good, because that is my perspective, you see the Legion as good, because that is your perspective. But we cannot forget true good and true evil DO exist, I can't think of a true evil faction, I would say Powder Ganger, but one could argue them as people doing bad things in the name of survival, I dont, but others will defend them, lord knows why though. But the FotA could be defined as a True Good faction, if you exclude what Tom Anderson did, which even then was to protect Westside, the FotA largely offer charity to the poor and turn away no one, as well as bring education and in a peaceful way.

It's always nice to see Sawyer pop in on one of these threads, but it's a shame he felt to need to comment in this one. Everything he summarized for us is in the game -- granted, the information varies due to your faction alliances (not until my 4th playthrough did I have a decent conversation with Caesar), but it's there.
This thread is based on a shallow misunderstanding of a pretty interesting, well-reasoned concept. That's not a dig at the OP -- like I said, it took me a while to see the whole picture. It helps if you realize Caesar is not emulating history -- he's using it.

This is a good illustration of the irritating tendency of game fans to criticize based on their enjoyment of a game or game element. You may not like it, but that does not mean it is flawed, afflicted with 'lazy' writing or that it is an error. It means you didn't like it. Period.

It's one thing to say, 'I did not like Caesar's Legion'. That's fine. It's expressing an opinion. It's quite another thing to say, 'Caesar's Legion SUX'. It's terribly elitist to presume that the hours you spent playing a game is in any way commensurate to the months or years that the creators spent making it.

I have something of a personal stake in this. Many years ago I was involved in writing and illustrating a book for the Hero System called 'Horror Hero'. The internet reviews were not very good, because we went to great pains to emphasize the fun of fighting monsters rather than settle for producing a clone of Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness. We indulged in some EC comics gags, made bat-sh*t crazy, larger than life NPCs, wrote some sections in lurid cod-pulp style, kept in mind that we were writing for people who usually played superheroes, etc. Professional reviews were generally positive, because people who were in the industry understood what we were trying to do. It's the same thing here. You guys who are quick to criticize have no idea of the thought and effort that goes into projects like this.

It's like that little sub-thread about the flaws of F3. Bethesda deliberately echoed elements of the previous games because they knew that the majority of the people who would play it had no previous exposure to Fallout. This wasn't ripping off, it wasn't a lack of imagination and it wasn't 'lazy' writing.

Sorry about the self-indulgent rant. I'm aware that without baseless complaining the glorious internet would evaporate. But for pity's sake try to have some perspective, people, and think about things instead of indulging your emotional responses.

All of that is well and good, according to OUR history, (notable exceptions excluded, like, oh, the USA), but in the established game history, where people are, even after 200 years (unbelievable, I know, but I didn't write it) STILL operating in "survival mode", where even the most mundane of characters (male and female alike) are at the very least armed and ready to respond to an onslaught of "raiders" at any given moment, the Legion just doesn't hold up. Sure, there are folks who aren't interested in any conflict between any factions, but do you think that after carving out their own chunk of the desert that they are just going to lay down and take whatever happens to be tossed at them? Or better yet, that there would be ENOUGH "mini-Caesars" to go around to keep all these sheep in line? Especially after eliminating at least 3/4 of the population capable of doing so? After all, women cannot serve, and most (but I'll say half to be fair) men of "serving age" would be lost to attrition. That absolutely works fine, over the course of a thousand years, but not, as evidenced by more recent history, in 200 or so...

Now, if you wanted to use "real world" history to justify all that- Fine, but you then really must look at what we, as humans, have accomplished in the last 200 years... Very likely, even given the '50s speculative-tech, and working backwards from there, people would have already been funneled into safer settlements and had a much larger "organized" and technologically superior presence than the game gives us, and defense of such from the "non-conformists", mil-spec mutants, and other hazards that nature herself presents (all of which they have been dealing with for 170 years already) would not just be exception, but a way of life. That being said, you would have a pretty weak gaming premise, so I get it, but in the "reality" framed by the game itself, it (the Legion) simply makes less sense than the others...

So you are saying that instead of multiple factions, We'd just happen to unite and form a super-state?

Um.. If i read this correctly, No it would'nt likely happen.

But that's you. I'm with you, I find it hard to believe that people would stay in situations like that cause I sure as hell wouldnt, but most people are not like that. Even my mom who is a strong individual was in a mentally abusive relationship for years. People who are mentally abused are ten times more likely to have mental problems than people who are sixually And physically abused.

As a Fallout fan AND historian I find this debate rather interesting. The Legion makes sense to me---perfect sense, especially with the slave aspect. Everyone should look up the term "hegemony" right now and take notes.

It takes a great deal more than that.. When you're faced with guns and you have fists, your people are being shot left and right and you're being ordered into gas chambers.. it takes a lot more courage and sacrifice than "oh they're looking the other way!"

The ones who start a revolt usually pay for it with their very lives. The first upstarts are usually shot dead. It's up to the people who witness this to carry on the revolt or it will fall apart.

Slavery and oppression is not as easy a thing to defeat as you may think.

6 Million+ Jews died in the holocaust.. don't you think they wanted to fight back? However, faced with that decision would you be willing to throw your life away (knowing you'd be shot dead on the spot) for the small chance that others would follow your example? Food for thought

It's interesting that some folks think that everybody has the capacity to rebel and that 'survival mode' means that every person will go down fighting. The Legion seem very astute at being able to break the will of most folks. I'm sure that the majority of those slaves see their world as hopeless. Also, take in account all of the psychological issues that could keep individuals from rising up and rebelling, like Stockholm's syndrome. Nothing in all existence is as simple as black and white. Life is like an onion. You can only see the outer layer, but there are usually a dozen underlying layers. Even the FotA are not perfect. For instance, It is for the better good but the layers to get there are very complex and not 'black and white'. To think that most of the FotA do not have their own personal selfish agendas is a bit oblivious.

The post its becoming really insteresting :hubbahubba:

Uhh, nope, not at all... I'm simply stating that as the "game universe" is presented, flies in the face of what OUR reality is based in and on. That is as it should be, I don't want to take out my garbage (literally) in a game, BUT, there needs to be some intelligent balance, as opposed to simply saying: "Well, he was just that cool, tough, relentless, etc..."

That being said, if you set a precedent for people "hardened by experience", only a few (at best) generations removed from those that suffered the most, an "all inclusive, militaristic leader", and his cohorts wouldn't be enough to overcome the will of people educated by the school of "Hard Knocks", especially when his soldiery is drawn from a very small pool of capable, eligible, and if not willing, at least "cowed enough to participate" individuals that comprise FAR less than 1/4 of the available "human resources"... Then you try to condense that into 20 years, barely enough time to obtain and train the FIRST generation of capable, willing soldiers (out of an already diminished pool of males), and you start having credibility issues...

Sure, there will be factions, and of course, they won't all get along nice, but at the point that THE GAME is trying to make it happen, it simply wouldn't. Take the polar opposite of the Legion- the Followers of the Apocalypse (in F:NV)... Even though they are in fact working VERY HARD at improving the condition of life for all the wasteland junkies (a fair portion of the survivors thus far, as it is presented), their success is, at best minimal... Why? Of course, in Caesar's world, they'd be dead already, but that completely flies in the face of SURVIVAL. A human trait so "important" that it was given its own perk in this iteration, even though it simply amounts to a cook book... :down:

The short version- Caesar is no match for whoever the PC is, regardless of his intentions, moral barometer, force of will, or any other "deus ex machina", because (again) in the framework laid out by the game itself, it just wouldn't work, because once he's gone, so is the Legion. Sure there might be remnants who would blindly cling to the ideals he presented, but they would be rapidly overcome by the confusion left in the vacuum his demise would create, unless of course the PC sided with him surreptitiously to gain his position, which isn't an option (in the game) as far as I can tell.

That leaves the player with either kissing his a$$, or wiping him out, with option 2 being the easiest...

So you are saying that Caesar's Legion is lost without Caesar to lead them?

Nonsense, I doubt that Lanius will be the best leader, But I bet that others such as Caesars Guard would be better for a leader for CL.

Okay :bowdown: :bowdown: J.E. Sawyer

You are forgetting the basic tenets that Caesar built his "empire" (in the game, anyhow) on... That HE alone is educated enough to perpetrate/accomplish what he has, in the briefest possible of time spans. Not only that, but his "rule" included, and was in fact based on the notion that nobody "under" him would have the same knowledge. How else could he keep his "seconds" in thrall? If they knew the "truth": that he was basing his entire campaign on keeping only the FACTS that worked in his (relatively small and shortsighted) world view, and disregarding ALL others, regardless of their tactical, strategic, or other "leadership" abilities, they would themselves (if intelligent enough) likely revolt themselves!

That would be cool to see in the game, but simply not possible (again) in the framework we are given. What we have is a "terminal Hitler", who has no compunction whatsoever to perpetuate his legacy beyond his lifespan, regardless of the reasons. The result is that even if a player sides with the Legion, once he (Caesar) kicks off, there would likely be either A ) the PC (as I have stated above) in charge, or B ) a shambles of deserting yahoos with skirts beating feet for the nearest cave, all because their "divine inspiration", fanatical devotion, or what the Hell ever, has managed to kick the oxygen habit.

Simply put, without the head, the dragon can't bite... (Sure you could toss in a Hydra reference, but which of the 7 is in charge then?)...

Not to say you are wrong, but that's not the impression I got of Bitter Springs. My impression was that they were people from East of the Colorado that fled before the Legion borders flowed over wherever it was they had been living. (Much like the flood of refugees that materialize in front of any other aggressive army on the march.) IF there were any runaway slaves, I suppose Bitter Springs would be where they would most likely end up, at least initially. (I can envision that the NCR Intel branch would want to question _anyone_ that had come from behind Legion lines, hoping to glean any info concerning Legion troop movements and operations.) However, I don't recall _anyone_ at the Bitter Springs refugee camp identifying themselves as runaway slaves. In fact, I don't recall _anyone_ in the game identifying themselves as runaway slaves. The closest that I recall is the trio of slaves-in-the-making at Cottonwood Cove -- and pointedly, they hadn't been integrated into the slave population as yet.

I should, in all fairness, mention that there ARE two conditions where I believe slavery "works" (sort of).

1) To my mind, I think that slaves become and remain slaves because they of a mindset that goes "I do what I must in order to stay alive. In a harsh world bereft of safety and security, an environment where one receives adequate food and shelter in exchange for labor performed might/would look like a good deal. That means that a patronage-style of slavery -- the lord takes care of and maintains his slaves; essentially, the slaves are like unpaid servants -- would have considerable appeal. Most medieval apprenticeship programs were actually had much in common with slavery, the obvious difference being that the "slavery" had a duration after which the apprentice/slave graduates and heads off into the world enriched by his education. Such apprenticeships were highly sought after, and many eager parents actually "sold" their children into such "slavery". The same goes for bond servants, which many people would "sell" themselves into (usually for the price f transportation to the New World). So, treat your slaves nice, and protect them from raiders, brigands, radscorpions, deathclaws, etc.

2) Assure that disobedience results in _immediate_ pain and/or death. The explosive slave collars would/could account for such compliance -- except that the radio-controlled go-past-this-line-and-kaboom device is too high-tech to be commonplace in Legion territory. It would work in localized places such as Cottonwood Cove, but considering that generally speaking, higher tech NOT directly under the control of Caesar seems to be anathema to Caesar. A system that requires the creation, manufacture, distribution, and maintenance of tens of thousands of radio-controlled collars doesn't jive. [If Caesar actually allowed the use of LOTS of tech within his empire, totally different story.]

I didn't say anything about the in-game faction being a replica of the ancient Rome legions, I am just saying that I found the in-game faction, as presented, not a very good concept and rather dull.