Appealing to the masses...

Post » Sun May 29, 2011 2:37 am

It was streamlined, not many people like a streamlined RPG, especially PC players and especially when the first one was pretty much made specifically for the PC gamer

But, it wasn't? The character progression had greater depth, with ability trees. Origins did not have trees, it had sticks. The combat made better use of class abilities and cooperation. The multiple waves of enemies did reduce the opportunities for true strategy, but I found little need for strategy in Origins. Mostly I just spammed spells as fast as possible. Saving Redcliff without any casualties took a little work, but I had a tough time with the last dragon in the Dragon Age 2. I figure they about even out. So what exactly was streamlined that wasn't made up for in spades elsewhere?
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john palmer
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:52 pm

Well, obviously. Changes can be made to try and improve it, which may or may not work out. Mass appeal is not done to intentionally ruin a game, but it IS done to intentionally make a product more like Game B than Game A, because B sells better. Fans get so angry because the minority gets shafted, every single time. Companies like the largest demographic the best, but they still want money from the smaller ones, and will often make a new franchise that seems be catering to them, then makes a sequel that goes right back to the masses so they can get both the majority cash and some new brand loyalty cash. People whose preferences are in the majority rarely see a problem, because they're always catered to and to them the games just improve. Others are pissed off by constant baiting and disappointment.

There's also the fact that in its earlier days, gaming was a niche thing. There was barely any "mainstream" to aim for, and you could afford to make a game that was awesome to a few people and not appealing to many others, because "a few" was already the expected player base. Between the industry's current popularity and costs now in the millions of dollars, they won't take that risk. Products in any medium being diluted toward mass appeal is inevitable, but gets especially annoying for people who remember an alternative.

maybe PC gaming was a niche thing.. but gaming has been pretty popular for about 3 generations now.
This is why i dont get all upset about franchises changing directions.. I started out on an intellivion for a console and DOS text adventures on PC, going to what we have now.. every facet of gaming has changed and will continue to.
I know interplay's punck rock ehos of being for gamers by gamers.. but look where that got them.
you must change with the times to stay afloat. a new direction doesnt have to be seen as bad, unless you make it personal.
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An Lor
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 2:16 am

Oh yeah, Splinter Cell series has been dumbed down considerably too. I also don't like the Zombie DLC pack for RDR. That to me looked like they totally sold out. Took an excellent ending to a touching and emotional story, and completely bastardized it. I expected better from Rockstar. :shakehead:

Compare the amount and quality of content from a Sims 2 expansion pack to a Sims 3 expansion pack...


Actually World Adventures and Ambitions (Sims 3 expansions) have way more content than Nightlife or University (Sims 2 expansions).

In World Adventures you get three completely unique locations, and with Ambitions you can follow your Sim to work and actually have tasks and whatnot. In Sims 2 expansions like Nightlife, University, and Open For Business, all they did was add objects (like cars, instruments and elevators) to the core game (except University which added a unique locations, but it was basically just one lot).

However, like I implied before, Sims 3 has definitely tried to appeal to the masses by making it a lot more arcade-like rather than a simulation game. World Adventures is just a bunch of puzzles and minigames. You can totally tell it's for the kiddies and glory hounds who want to make their Sims "look cool" and "be rich" or "get all the unique objects" and stuff like that. Totally missing the point of the game.
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Maeva
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:49 pm

Fable 2 to 3. Can't really think of anything else.

I'm beyond surprised no one has said Sonic The Hedgehog yet... :mellow: (I disagree with the popular Sonic opinion though, I love modern and old sonic :wub: )
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Sara Lee
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Fable 2 to 3. Can't really think of anything else.

I'm beyond surprised no one has said Sonic The Hedgehog yet... :mellow: (I disagree with the popular Sonic opinion though, I love modern and old sonic :wub: )

Your sig is an RvB reference :D
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Kortniie Dumont
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:28 am

We all want to think when we find something that we like that it is ours. that its a part of our unique ans special selves.. and when it changes to something we dont like as much, we feel hurt about it.
So we slap a "this is dumbed down" tag on it for doing so. This allows us to keep pur fond memeories of the former itteration in tact without having to come to terms with the fact that we are indeed a part of "the masses" from the start.

This is why i dont get all upset about franchises changing directions.. I started out on an intellivion for a console and DOS text adventures on PC, going to what we have now.. every facet of gaming has changed and will continue to.
you must change with the times to stay afloat. a new direction doesnt have to be seen as bad, unless you make it personal.

For every abuse of the phrase "dumbed down" I see, there's someone scoffing at its use at all in order to reject anything that criticizes their preferred game. It goes both way, and arguing the term doesn't get anywhere. That a "mainstream" exists is relatively undeniable, though it's not a clearly defined, concrete group anyone can separate out from the rest. It's just the blurry notion of what's popular, which companies will reach for in order to sell more. No one is arguing that the industry hasn't changed constantly from the start, and of course every new direction isn't bad. It's not about all change being bad. It's about the inevitability of it; one person's preferences are not likely to change dramatically, but the direction of games will always be changing, chasing around that popular ideal. Eventually the later games in a series will be fundamentally different from the "type" of game they were to start. Not just dumbed down or evolved or whatever other buzzwords people will apply, but just plain different. Because people are always going to have their own preferences between two different things, it is also inevitable that eventually, you are going to like what the games changed into less than you liked what they were before. This is especially the case for your earliest games, since it's the factors that first drew people into gaming in the first place, now being compared to things that have moved away from whatever those factors were.

Since this process is gradual over the course of years, it's not like people can just alternate which sequels they like. Instead, they view it as a gradual decline over years, as games move further and further from what they first liked about games. In its way, "appealing to the masses" does eventually "ruin" every game series, because that gameplay is static and the elusive mainstream will inevitably drift away from it. It's not about a fear of change or clinging to nostalgia (it is for some more than others, of course), but that's just the way it is. People aren't wrong to complain about it, because what's a more basic thing to complain over than something you like being taken away? That's life for you. A group of people will be screwed over by changing times, they'll gripe about it, the next group will give them a hard time for living in the past, and then they will gripe when the mainstream high leaves them behind.
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Laura Mclean
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:03 pm

I don't understand including Dragon Age 2 here. It was clearly rushed, and it suffered from that, but everything else seemed to be very much an improvement. The ability trees were far better than those in Origins, your companions were much more involved in the actual plot, you weren't forced to sift through line after line of boring dialogue just to maybe get a companion to tell you something about them, and the story was immensely better than the generic one in Origins. There were a lot of roblems with Dragon Age 2, but overall there were a lot of okay ideas.

I don't consider any of those improvements, its supposedly "more original" plot was less inspired and interesting than Origins "more generic" one. To say nothing of the fact that it not only didn't bother addressing many of Origins' actual problems (such as lack of decent loot and repetitive enemy encounters); in fact, it made them even worse. And I say it belongs in this topic because even http://www.nowgamer.com/news/5141/bioware-we-want-call-of-dutys-audience
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Lauren Graves
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:33 pm

Define "masses".
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:21 pm

Perhaps destroyed is too harsh of a word in most cases. But I'm sure everyone gets the point. Anyways...

Anyone else hate it, when there's a game series(tv series, book series, movie series, etc) you've been playing(watching, reading) for a very long time, and, as the series goes on, the developers(directors, producers, writers, etc) start to add and remove features (or characters, parts to the story, etc) to appeal to a whole new and different generation of gamers (movie watchers, readers)?

Say there's this great open world RPG game series you've been playing for ~17 years, and then all of a sudden, the developers start trying to appeal to a large group of people who play games (from a totally different genre) that reward you for having shorter attention spans. It sort of bums you out. I'm not sure what it is. I think it's that, after you've put in so many hours (especially when you've played/watched/read from the beginning) with a companies product, and you've been loyal so long, you sort of feel "entitled" to having things be a certain way.

I know a lot of people were upset with the direction Bioware took with Mass Effect after the first one.

It doesn't even have to be a video game. I have friends that have complained about every DnD rule-set that's came out after 2.5.

Or how about George Lucas and his SW prequels/Indiana Jones sequel?

How about movies? TV shows? Books?

Your pissed about Skyrim or that 3rd edition of DnD aren't you?

Mass Effect it starting to feel dumbed down, most everything else I haven't had to much of a problem with.
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Josh Lozier
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:12 pm

Define "masses".

Every member of this forum along with everyone else in their immediate and non-immediate vicinity.

I can't really think of a franchise I like that's been ruined by trying to appeal to the masses, but I must say that EA's marketing policies and method of selling DLC's strikes me as increasingly exploitive across all their titles.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:08 pm

Nostalgia is strong.


(I was about to say Final Fantasy XIII, but it's probably just that SquareEnix doesn't know what to do with power that exceeds PS2. IX was better than X really. They should have never left PSX. Imo)
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Princess Johnson
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:29 pm

Making metal gear online seemed like a weak attempt to grab online gamers. Personally I would of loved co-op with MGS4 but no I get a ok single player and mediocre mutiplayer with expansions that cost the same as COD map packs before COD released the map packs.
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Chris Guerin
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Mass Effect 2
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Jinx Sykes
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:08 pm

I understand what your getting at but take your list, both Pirates and Transformers were made to appeal to the masses, the sequels took the series in a direction you didn't like, making parallels to my own arguments for the Halo series


I enjoyed Pirates very much, actually!

I have no doubt that you disliked the Halo series because they took it in a direction that you didn't like. My issue is with the fact that they made it appeal to the masses, when it already appealed to the masses.

With action films, adding a sense of comedy especially to something like Transformers can open it up to a whole new demographic. They never really tried to break into another demographic with halo CE because it is considered to be a must have if you owned the console.
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Kristina Campbell
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 2:59 am

Final Fantasy, 13 specifically.
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Charity Hughes
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 7:49 pm

Compare the amount and quality of content from a Sims 2 expansion pack to a Sims 3 expansion pack...

...about the same. :unsure2:
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JLG
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:25 pm

Dragon Age 2.


Definitely. And Fallout 3. And Bioshock (if it truly is a spiritual successor to System Shock). And the upcoming X-Com FPS and the non-TB Jagged Alliance. The [censored] just gets piling up -- goodbye good gaming. :laugh:

I haven't noticed the defiling on books or series' though (apart from the Star Wars [censored]).
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Carlos Rojas
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 2:56 am

Your sig is an RvB reference :D

Yes! For noticing that you gain 758734623 cool points and a cookie <3

:cookie:
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Jake Easom
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 12:02 am

And Bioshock (if it truly is a spiritual successor to System Shock).

Spiritual, yes. They wouldn't have used the name in any way even if they had the rights to do so. And BioShock is one of the narratively most intricate games of all time. But what am I trying to do here, you agreed with DA2, too. *grumpypants*
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Nuno Castro
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:05 am

Fallout series. Turned from great RPGs with a realistic wasteland to a dumbed down radiation filled dungeon crawler.
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Penny Courture
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:14 pm

My issue is with the fact that they made it appeal to the masses, when it already appealed to the masses.

This easily applys to both Pirates and Transformers, so how is me saying Halo any different than you saying those two movies?
Anyone else hate it, when there's a game series(tv series, book series, movie series, etc) you've been playing(watching, reading) for a very long time, and, as the series goes on, the developers(directors, producers, writers, etc) start to add and remove features (or characters, parts to the story, etc) to appeal to a whole new and different generation of gamers (movie watchers, readers)?



This is how I feel about the Halo series, they continuously added to the MP to appeal to the next generation of gamers, leaving the story of the Master Chief on the back burner.
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helen buchan
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Spiritual, yes. They wouldn't have used the name in any way even if they had the rights to do so. And BioShock is one of the narratively most intricate games of all time. But what am I trying to do here, you agreed with DA2, too. *grumpypants*


Shame really, as the concept to use was great but alas the execution failed (imo). I can't really describe the faults of Bioshock in detail because I just got bored of it.

The *grumpupants*.... is it looking me with a disagreeing or agreeing eye? DA2, what I have played it, feels, looks and sounds awful and stale - and I can't really help it even when I moderately liked DA:O (mainly because it was a fair step towards bringing the oldschool back to the new school).
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Danielle Brown
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:03 pm

Yes! For noticing that you gain 758734623 cool points and a cookie <3

:cookie:

Yay me! Can't wait for series nine :) And the return of Donut :rofl:
Now you just gave me a sig idea :o
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Alex Blacke
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 12:27 am

I haven't had any yet, but I am hoping Saints Row the third won't do it. Or Gears. or skyrim. If any of these games go with the masses... I will be devastated.

oh!!! Lets not forget the big one. COD. I loved finest hour. I played that game over and over again!
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Richard Dixon
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:18 pm

Well, sure, it destroyed a series I like if the games they made weren't something that appealed to me personally, but to blame it on the masses is a red herring.
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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