The last figure I saw about internet usage was that 60 % of homes had internet.....well would like to put in a word for those 40 % who can't reply to this forum....I have been playing pc games since before there were pcs....too many to list but started out with a commodore 64...I am retired on a limited income and can't really afford this internet connection which will be ending shortly....signed up for a 6 month special.....anyway to the point....How many gamers have been pushed out of the market because of the internet requirement? Several I know have switched to consoles......If I had known how invasive steam was going to be I would have gone with a 360 version,,,,,I do play on a laptop so I can always go to the library and upgrade if I need to and to download mods but I feel I bought the software...I OWN IT....AND DON'T NEED STEAM....

I ordered a new pc today along with the PC version of Skyrim (been playing on PS3) even knowing it was on Steam. I've never had any trouble with it. I love Steam with all the sales and junk they offer.

I like Steam because the first time I had it, I had to take a trip out of state to visit family for a funeral and to blow off steam (no pun intended) I was able to play a game 2500 miles away from home without the dvd needed to install.

I personally hate steam, always did actually. Personal preference for one, and the way it works for other.

Well steam is nice and all, sure it has a nice system that your games are always available at every time everywhere where ever you were.
They offer cheap stuff at special days and standard price normally BUT you pay a full price for a digital game, which is exactly the same price as a physical disc edition.

One thing i hate about steam, or the main thing is that it chains all your games to your account, now guess what happens if steam decides to turn off your account.

Happend to me once, they blocked my account for no reason with the word i've done something illegal and that carp, my account was unavailable for like 2 weeks, i couldnt play any games at all i had to wait.
That pissed me so off that i barly play any games on steam.
This is one of the reasons why i hate steam.

Gamer's gate for example is a much better system then Steam, the best thing about it is that it doesent chain a game to your account to the point that they block your account for no apperant reason or stop you from playing a game.

Another thing i hate about steam is that its a middleman program.
If it would be possible to run a game without steam runing that would be fabulous but the problem is, it always needs to be running and i hate that.

Gamers gate on te other hand, you download a game install it and play it, no middleman program, no staying loged in anywhere to play a game.

If steam had the option to run the games without steam being turned on and that if you want updates and that stuff you then turn steam on that would make me much happyer, but the way it is now i dare not pay for skyrim on steam.

I hope this textbook made any sense in english.

One way or another, the game is going to have DRM attached. It's pointless, but the publishers insist.

While I'd prefer to not deal with it at all, as far as DRM goes, there's far worse. I'd rather deal with Steam than SecuRom or Ubisoft's current mess.

Good luck playing those 44 games when Valve goes bankrupt or simply decide to shut down Steam. No, it won't happen this year and it probably won't happen next year, but no company is immortal and software companies are among those most vulnerable to the test of time.

Regarding the first paragraph, I strangely seem to have a hard copy of all my games except FONV and Skyrim. Kind of strange, isn't it? And hard copies of those last two are definitely available, even if those versions aren't legal. Which begs the question of why legal customers have a considerably worse product than internet pirates?

Regarding your second paragraph, I don't mind the disk clutter at all. Most games require online components and usually there are also emergency tools to bypass that requirement, in case the unthinkable happens and online activation becomes impossible. Not legal tools, perhaps, but they're available and so a pirate can reinstall at any time while legit, paying customers are screwed. More Steam-specific, I really hate them making a profit from me wanting to play someone else's game.

I hate Valve in general, and have ever since they screwed over all those who pre-ordered HL2 in a hard copy by throwing quite a bundle into the default Steam version of HL2, but that's a personal thing. I also don't like the client much, I don't like auto-updaters since they always [censored] things up, I don't like game applications that phone home, I don't like installers that don't work unless you update to the latest version, I don't like not having a choice of where my games are installed, I don't like stealth updates, and I sure as hell don't want any in-game chat options or what have you.

In short, I dislike the company behind Steam and the application offers me absolutely nothing I want or need. It's a leechy little [censored] application that wants to control my games on my computer, and I feel like taking a hammer to my computer every time I see it running. If I could activate my game through Steam and then shut down the damn thing permanently, and play the game without any crap running in the background, be it in online or offline mode, then I'd be able to forgive gamesas for marrying Valve. As it is, we're moving closer and closer to it being a deal-breaker.

There is no such thing unless you are buying it for xbox or ps3. Even if you go out and buy the disc and not download it from steam. You are still forced to run it through steam anyway.

People are not only NOT buying this game due to Steam, they have become Pirates because of it.

I figure that Bethesda and other companies have decided that what they save in preventing returns and second-hand buys more than makes up for people who hate Steam.

As far as Bethesda and others are concerned, `Tough luck` for anyone who wants a Non-steam option.

They just do not care. they say they do, but they don`t.
Let`s not forget that Steam piggy backs on a game. A lot of people want SKYRIM, not STEAM, but they don`t know about Steam until the game goes in the Harddrive (and they won`t even know what Steam is from reading the box, they just want the game).

People are basically tricked into using Steam and then that`s it.


They`d care if a great proportion of people were NOT buying their game due to Steam.

My partner told me that in the event of that happening, they would put out a code that would mean that people can still keep playing the games that they have already purchased.


There is a problem with disc copies of games as well.

When PC's upgrade there is no guarantee that the disc versions of the game will be able to play. I have got games that will not play just because of them not being compatible with the computer that I have got.

I almost didn't get Skyrim because of the Steam requirement. I DID refuse to buy Civ 5 because of that. Steam offers me nothing I want. I can keep track of and install updates (IF I happen to WANT to update) myself. As soon as I'm finished with Skyrim I will remove Steam from my computer and I doubt I'll ever put it back. Outside of Syrim which I couldn't resist I will never buy anything from that company or any software company that requires Steam.

From what I hear its because you cannot play the game if your internet is out, which is -pretty- dumb considering you own the hard copy of the game....thats why there are those people.

you can just get rid of those files that come with steam its easy as pie and then you have 0 trackers etc. anyway the trackers are used to promote games to you that you might like and nothing else.


go into offline mode, all sorted, the amount of people that dont use or understand this is inconcievable my net was down 2weeks back but as i use steam in offline mode i was fine.

anyway no-one is forcing you to buy it from steam you can run the game without using a Disc with the retail copy, dont like steam? buy a hard copy. while i agree Beth should have there own download purchases separate of steam, steams 30million subscribers and active players....say its pretty succesfull.

If you read their EULA contract they are absolutely under no pressure to do that. steam could go down and they run away and you`re screwed. have you seen how hard it`s been for people to get money back from banks for bad insurance? Years and some still don`t have it. You haul at a long rope hoping Steam will provide an opt out for a game if Steam fails. I reckon we would have to rely on pirates to do it for us.


Only true in a small sense. I`ve had very old games that work fine on my PC (games I got 10 years ago) still and if you go to GOG.COM they have even older games now fixed so that they`ll work on modren PCs.

Whatever, I`d rather have the freedom of a game unsteamed that`ll work for the next 10 years than one on Steam that might for any reason suddenly stop working and it won`t be because of my PC but because of some server far away where I can`t fix the problem.

They won't. It would be a legal nightmare for everyone involved if they tried to do that. They are under no obligation to make sure you can continue playing the games you paid for should the Steam servers go down.

Interesting, because I can still play old disc games by developers/publishers not around anymore.

If the game is popular enough, and the problem wide-spread enough, you'll find people who can get it working. Just look at Daggerfall: the game itself will not play as-is on today's machines because it needs DOS, and recent Windows versions aren't compatible. In addition, the game itself bugs out when the processor is too fast. But enough people wanted to continue playing old DOS games like this on newer machines, and these people made DOSBox. Now you can (legally) continue playing those old games you payed for on new machines.

Beyond that, there's nothing stopping you from fixing the problem yourself if you care enough, or from finding someone who can. Unless of course it happens to have DRM you can't legally get around...


One more point that some people are missing: nobody cares that Skyrim is on Steam. Just like Morrowind and Oblivion, you can find it on Steam and in stores. This is a-okay. The problem is simply that the store-bought version requires installing, setting up, and maintaining a Steam account for no real reason, and even though we don't want to use Steam. This is not okay.

They're not legally obligated to do that and in many cases it would be rather impossible to do. Valve doesn't own the source code for the games they sell and modifying the source code would presumably be well beyond their legal rights. Since the source code is written to require Steam, a service that would no longer be there, the source code would be inherently unable to function. And it would be up to the developers to release fixes for that issue. Valve couldn't do anything even if they wanted, and I'm not sure they'd want to modify hundreds of games during a bankruptcy situation anyway.

This is a general system compatibility issue. It's not something Valve can generally fix either, at least not without specific permission from whatever company that holds the rights for a particular game. It's not that your DVD drive can't read those old CD-Roms, it's that those old disks require a different OS than what you have. If a game is designed for Win98 then WinXP is still likely going to run it, but Vista and onwards were not designed to be backwards compatible and so there's quite a lot of Win9x applications that just don't work.

Of course, once you get an emulated system environment (read: a virtual PC) with enough speed, you can use those old disks again with no problem whatsoever. My main computer has speed issues when running Championship Manager 2001/2, so I'm running that on a virtual Win98 PC. TES2 Daggerfall won't run on modern Windows so you use DosBox to make it work, and consequently you keep ownership of the game, no matter what happens to gamesas or Valve.

There are things I like about Steam, and things I really dislike. One of the main advantages of Steam is that it is reasonably easy to get a new game. The interface is not intuitive, but it is still easier than to go down to a shop. Plus, they have a very large inventory. The great big advantage of Steam is that it is convenient.

I agree. What I do with the software I paid for in the privacy of my own home is my business, not anyone elses.

The offline mode usually works, even though some manufacturers want an always-on check. This is not Steams fault; it is the fault of the manufacturer. These always-on checks get pretty ridiculous. An example is Ubisoft that are taking their http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/transition/details/, meaning that paying customers http://www.itproportal.com/2012/02/03/ubisoft-games-wont-work-next-week/#ixzz1lJvpsK40.

What is there to love when it comes to antivirus software? Like condems, it is a necessary evil to keep you clean.

Thirded. Fallout: New Vegas and Civilization V caused me to get Stream. Some time after the initial release, Firaxis re-published Civilization IV without any DRM. Made me purchase a new copy. It was only later I discovered that the DRM-free version were released in North America only ... sic ...

Promises are cheap, and when/if Steam goes belly up, they have no reason to care anymore. Any assets they may have left will be used to pay stock holders and employees before they will make good on any promises. So, unless they have those patches ready with an independent third party, I call BS.

If I pay for that software, I do not like the notion of someone barring me from using those products that I payed for. It feels an awfully lot like Amazon removing copies of 1984 from peoples Kindle behind the backs of their paying customers.

I bought the game but I don't like Steam at all. I have zero desire to use any of the features of Steam, it takes up some of my computer power when I run Skyrim, sometimes it won't let me play even in offline mode when I don't have internet, it opens and puts up ads that I see when I close my game, I have no option to return my game even if I want to, and the integration with the Steam workshop is one of the reasons for the enormous delay in the CK. I wouldn't really care if it was optional, but I just think it's crappy that it's not. It doesn't even stop people from getting the game by nonconventional means, it really only affects paying customers.

As others have said, this is the exact problem. You can't actually do this. You can't buy a hard copy and play without steam. You can't even install directly from the hard copy. Instead you have to install Steam, tell it to look for installation files locally, and then use Steam to install the game. And then the game will insist on updating to the latest version online, before it will agree that the installation is complete.

Maybe I'm being picky, but I don't think that's a sensible approach and I'm sure not buying a hard copy because I want to use some web store application to install my game.

So you're saying that rather than install an unobtrusive and trustworthy app that people would rather risk malware/spyware by downloading illegal copies?

They definitely can't be pirating it is due to net issues as downloading an illegal copy would require...an internet connection.

There's only one semi-valid reason for not wanting Steam - all those great bargains during the Steam sales are way too tempting

You know, several years ago I could have agreed with the anti-Steam sentiments somewhat. It did have teething problems but since then has become an excellent product.

In fact, without Steam we might be having a different debate altogether because it's conceivable that many publishers would have abandoned the PC platform by now. Piracy was hurting the PC far more back then than it is now. Don't believe Steam has countered that? They recently launched Steam in Russia - People told Gabe he was insane, with the amount of piracy there Steam couldn't possibly succeed.

Russia is now one of Steam's biggest markets in Europe.

That's quite simply not true. My mouse works online and offline, and my mouse driver isn't constantly calling home and doesn't require anything running in the background other than a driver. Adobe products, well, I wouldn't buy Photoshop but Reader seems to be working just fine without any assorted agent baggage. Haven't tried with Acrobat in a long time but last I did, it too worked fine. Office up to 2007 works fine offline, with no internet connection required ever. AV software? They're a necessary evil, nothing more, and they don't require third party garbage to run, they work offline, they don't require online activation and refuse to function until it happens, and so on.

Overall, terrible comparison is terrible.

am i allowed to suggest buying the game, pirating it, and using your cd to play? probably not. i guess i won't then.

1) What risk of spyware / virus? "My friend" has tried his fair share of pirated games and he has *never* run into a virus as a result. If it's dumb luck then it's unfathomable that he never wins anything on lottery tickets.
2) Wouldn't you say that a fullblown third party agent you didn't ask for that monitors your system and phones home all the time is spyware?
3) If you're already pirating games then there's an even cheaper alternative to Steam's bargains.


Edit:
I'm guessing the answer is no. In fact, I'm guessing the mods would be forced to swing the ban-hammer if you made such a suggestion. And in the spirit of what the mods will no doubt say, I'd like to be the first to emphasize how unconscionable such an approach would be. And even if the morality doesn't bother you, there are other factors involved here. Pirates have small wieners and it shrinks for every game they pirate! So says "my friend" anyway. But he keeps pirating games since he's not getting laid anyway, making his wiener-size less of an issue.

I seriously considered skipping Skyrim because of Steam. Abundant praising of Steam's greatness persuaded me to give it a chance.

All Bethesda told us about Steam is that we needed it to activate Skyrim. Therefore, activating Skyrim is the only function Steam should offer us unless we tell it otherwise. If Steam were a well-designed application, it would make it easy for us to see how to activate Skyrim, and it would wait upon us to tell it to activate Skyrim. Steam does too many things for us (and uses us?) without our directing it to, hence all the online advice on how to make it stop doing things.

Applications that generate lots of "how do I get it to stop" questions are applications I tend not to want on my system.

If your internet goes down or you cant connect to steam just start the game with the TESV.exe file instead of the launcher.
I used steam to verify my install and have been running it with TESV.exe since, only using the launcher when patches have been released.

People are silly when they consider Steam to be a bad thing, the whole "You can't play Steam when your internet is down" is such bullcrap. Anyone who doesn't buy Skyrim because of Steam is going to have a limited future in gaming, manly due to the fact that Skyrim isn't the only game that uses DRM such as Steam. If you want to complain about a bad DRM, complain about Ubisofts.