i bought it because it was on steam. i dont like patching my games. i dont like having to hack my games. I dont like keeping cds or a booklets for the cd key. Steam has been reliable for me for all my purchases, infact steam is the reason i own more pc games because of their deals.

steam, and more recentcy steamworkshops have always been one of the worst aspects of skyrim. almost as bad as the bugs/CTD/broken quests. It pointless, uneesseary and the workshop will do nothing but anoy the modding community who already have a well established setting on nexus.

speaking of nexus i dont like their revamp of the site layout. tesnexus used to be easier to navigate

Speaking of Nexus, they have IP-banned a whole lot of people for petty reasons, and those bans apply to downloading mods, that the Nexus don't even own.

I hope Steam workshop puts them out of their misery.

There's a reason so many of us see no problem with Steam. We've seen it start out from nothing to grow into a great and respectable product. I'm often the first to be cynical of companies but Valve have consistently shown time and time again that they understand their customer base, through what they say and what they do.

If so many of us time and time again not only see no problem with Steam but positively recommend it (and I do) then it's because Valve are doing something right.


DRM is only one aspect of Steam and, even if Bethesda had elected not to use Steam, in this day and age they would still have required some form of one-time online registration.

The thing with saying that a lot of people do not like and do not want Steam is that very few seem to articulate any solid reason - I can understand those who simply cannot connect online because they can't get a connection where they live but those people are very few and far between.

I see a lot of people objecting simply out of principal about choice, even when they actually choose to accept Steam by buying the game (and, in your case, your issue is with the retailler and your own oversight, as you admitted, in not looking closely enough).

Observation under the perpetual eyes of Big Brother doesn't appeal to me.
It is prolific enough around here already. Privacy is fast becoming a thing of the past.

Anyhow... I don't rent games. I only buy games.
Steam represents a medium of effectively renting games under the premise of buying something... AND being constantly observed to make sure you're playing it just the way they want you to, and slowing your system down at the same time just to be sure.

Gaming is my life. When companies I have otherwise trusted in the past start effectively demanding that I live my life by THEIR rules... I decline, even if it means not playing the games. I've had enough of THAT sort of bullcrap with MMOs (and my constant efforts to find mods for them).



Just remember... every time you play Skyrim on Steam... Bethesda are watching you mastvrbate... metaphorically speaking.

I bought Skyrim for PC because of the mods and creation kit, but I really don't like Steam.
When you think about it, there are a considerable number of people who don't have an internet connection at all, and I think that making the game unavailable to them is completely unfair. And, for those like me who have a slow or unreliable internet connection, using Steam can be a real pain.
Skyrim is the first game I've played that's needed Steam, and to be honest It dosn't improve my experience in any way. I've played games for years without it, and I simply think it is unecessary.
I understand some people like Steam, but I wish installing it would be optional. That way, those who want to use it can, and those who don't want to use it aren't forced to. As it is, I'm stuck with it.

Steam does not invade your privacy. They collect information on a voluntary basis via optional hardware and software surveys.

You buy games on Steam too, at least the licence but this is not unique to Steam. This is standard practice across the industry.

Steam's impact on system resources is minimal and does not slow your system down unless you have several games downloading or updating at the same time (which you can pause).

If I were to buy the PC version of this game or any PC game for that matter i would buy it on steam. I love the service and like that i can get more games on my mac because of it.
I'm not sure how I can hate a game vendor that sold me CIV 4 GOY edition for $5.

Steam aggregates data, its not optional. What other need is there for Steam?

Distribution of media?

Garbage.

There is no standard of practice across the industry either. You can still buy hard copies, and indeed the console market is the largest share so if ANYTHING Steam is the standard of the PC minority.

So, you're telling me, that if I want to go play Skyrim on some other computer I have to sign in to an account that is in someway tied to my finances. This by itself is hazardous enough.

Steam does absolutely ZERO, NOTHING, NOT A DAMN THING TO STOP PIRACY. It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't even slow down the process. Skyrim was out weeks before the game even freaking launched.

Steam will be the downfall of PC gaming, I don't care if you like it or not. So be content with your convenience, its awful nice for people that don't know how to operate a computer. iTunes is real convenient too right? Until you update the damned thing.

Look, sticking with the iTunes anology here, if I legally buy music anywhere else and put it on my device and then attempt to update iTunes or my device... Apple tells me that I have to physically back up everything on my hard drive. I have to have 2 freaking copies of EVERYTHING... and if I don't it will force delete everything not in my library from the device.

Its nonsense, its a damned electronic nanny siiting on your freaking back telling you to eat your vegetables.

You like vegetables? GREAT.

I like bacon.

Oh, and how's that whole, "Only a minority of people don't like Steam." thing going?

Um, thats not how itunes works at all.
Ive been on macs using itunes for about a decade or more and never once was forced into backing up my stuff (although its a great idea to do such things) That very ecosystem is what makes Steam valuable. Also Itunes music is DRM free so you can put it on any device in the world and it will play perfectly. Movies on the other hand DO NOT BUY on itunes.

Oh an itunes will never force delete anything. Period. It just doesn't do that.

Yes, it does.

From personal experience.

Sorry, it does.

Here, I'll go grab about 50 links and be right back.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2162370?start=0&tstart=0

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2594113?start=0&tstart=0

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090508121603AAEvsdo

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=425278

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=394843

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2353175?start=0&tstart=0

http://forums.ilounge.com/ipod-monochrome/21327-itunes-deleted-all-my-music-my-ipod-unbelievable.html


Noticing a pattern here, or you need more?

Now that the Apple thing is over, back on topic.

Steam is a nanny program, and needs to go somewhere with Mary Poppins and leave my damned computer alone.

Period.

A big problem with that is that some systems detect the 'errors' and switch to a slower mode; still errors, slower, slower... slower...... Google "Starforce PIO" for example.

I like buying games on Steam, I've spent a lot on their sales (I have 202 games on Steam) I only buy games on steam that are super cheap; because of the tradeoff of them not being transferable.

What I DON'T like is that upon install the physical copy of Skyrim that I bought in a retail store for full price appears to have linked itself to my Steam account that I happened to be logged into, without my permission. That is, Skyrim accessed third party software on my machine without my permission in order to deprive me of something I purchased.

If I have any problems lending Skyrim to my friend when I'm done with it, I'll be rather unhappy, as I am a strong believer in the First Sale doctrine. If I paid cash at a retail store and walked out with it without having to sign a contract, I can sell it used later on. There should also be no reason I can't play 2 different games I've purchased at the same time; on different computers for example.

If I licensed it from a Service, such as Steam, with a clear 'Licensed Not Sold' statement BEFORE purchase, it can be restricted, that's fair notice. But stealing my right to transfer purchased goods is simply theft.

If Bethesda's choice of DRM gives me too much trouble, I will end up having to 'pirate' their software, which would be unfortunate.

I hope that when they start releasing DLC that's they'll unlock it from Steam, since anyone that would have pirated it would has done so already.

I'm not going to by it for my PC because Steam is a pain in the ass . The last time i tried to load a game with it the results were hours of waiting for Steam to load and actually give me an account i gave up on it because i couldn't get it to work. I'M HAPPY WITH CONSOLE'S THERE ARE NO COMPATIBILITY ISSUES , i just put my game in and play no BS . I have a good PC that could run Skyrim fairly easilly but it's not going to happen because of Steam .

^ i admire your disgust of steam, honestly theyve never wronged me but the concept and idealogy attached to steam just irks me to no end.

Youre right the pattern is there. They are all trying to put music from and external HD or network on to their internal drives without bringing over the itunes .pref file and then adding the folder to their itunes library.
Like you stated, its people not knowing how to use computers. Its not itunes, its them. Or in this case, you. I can help you fix this if it ever happens again. Its really easy. Bummer it happened to you as its the first time i've ever read about it. You can avoid all this as well by using migration assistant to transfer music from external sources to internal ones.
Since I use my rig for audio production i go get weird hiccups and bugs from time to time. I use carbon copy cloner to make a image of my system just in case something stupid like this happens. I highly recommend it.

One of those is a kid trying to steal music on the school network and cant figure it out, so that one doesnt apply.

If you're using windows pc, well I don't know what to tell you. As I haven't used one besides work for 15 years or so.

Indeed.

People always resist change; it's natural. It took me a while to adjust to online gaming and DLC etc. They'll get over it. Online is the future and brings a lot of benefits which enhance gaming overall.

Best thing I've heard all month... not that the month has really got going yet, but I imagine it'll still be the best for some time yet!


Don't you dare treat this as a boolean issue. This isn't a matter of hating change, but a matter of hating the direction the change is taking. It is going the wrong damned way. We should be freeing ourselves from the pointless, paranoid, cultural shackles of the past going forwards.... but instead society is just becoming more paranoid, more closeted, arbitrarily screwing itself over more and more with each passing year.

As a general comment, this topic is of course going to be a bit one-sided since there isn't a single pirate out there who can talk about how he decided to not buy Skyrim and instead pirated it, just to avoid Steam. Well, he could talk about it but then he'd get banned for admitting illegal activities. That wouldn't exactly be a bright move by the pirate, would it? That aside, there's a few posts I'd like to comment on.

There are a few problems with your post. For one, you're appealing to authority and to majority opinion. Considering how millions of people voted to not just elect Bush Jr but to reelect him, you really should know better. That you and millions of other people are more than overjoyed to let Steam own your games and control your access to those games is good. But when Steam does go down, and it most likely will eventually, then you and those millions will be canoeing down Crap Creek without a paddle.

You're right that online activation is getting increasingly popular and you'd also be right in speculating that I don't like that either. Even so, with a one-time registration, you really only have to register one time and then you can forget about the whole DRM crap until next installation. With Steam, you need the Steam client running EVERY SINGLE TIME you start a Steam-based application. That's a load of rubbish.

You say there's no valid reason to dislike Steam? Well, tell that to the people who got auto-updated to have backwards-flying dragons. Tell that to the people who got stealth updated so their SKSE or memory awareness fixes stopped working. Tell that to the people who have corrupted installations and have to re-download the whole damn thing. And I'm willing to bet quite a lot that my DVD-drive data transfer rate is faster than your internet connection. I'd bet even more that my HDD image of my DVD is faster than any connection available in your area. And that's just from a normal SATA HDD. Imagine if I was storing my image on an SSD drive?

Finally, you say it's my own damn fault and that I chose Steam? No, I didn't choose Steam, I accepted some degree of system pollution as a condition for playing Skyrim. It's like choosing to have six with Megan Fox on the condition that she gets to urinate down your back. I'd of course totally go for that but it doesn't mean I'm cool with women peeing on me. Or if you'd rather have a teen-friendly example, I decided to close my eyes, hold my nose, focus my thoughts, and eat my broccoli rather than listen to my mom harp on and on and on about how healthy they are and whatnot.

There, both an advlt and a teen-friendly anology. If that doesn't explain my very reluctant acceptance of having Steam even installed on my system then I don't know what will. Except possibly some rather colorful language that will no doubt leave the resident moderators with some violent urges, which is something I'd rather not introduce in people who wield mighty battlehammers of account termination.

Again a few things I have to comment on.
1) Only guarantee we have that Steam won't invade our privacy is that Valve has promised they don't. I'll trust them turning down potential millions in profit as much as I'd trust Sony with my credit card or a sales rep to even be withing 50% of the truth about the product he's trying to sell.
2) Speaking of privacy, do you realise that Steam phoning home is actually already an indication of what you're doing with your spare time? It may not be a huge breach, but it *is* a breach.
3) You don't own your games bought through Steam, you own a Steam account with access to a number of games. If Steam dies, your account becomes worthless and your games are gone. Conversely, I do very much own all my disk based games and while I might have a hard time activating some of them online, in case the publisher goes under or takes down their validation server, I can at least use various remedies to get around such problems. You can't use those remedies to get around not having a game at all. You'd have to download the entire game from a pirate site rather than simply finding a no-activation fix.

Really, the only reason I can see Bethesda using Steam is because of pirates. Alright, let's see here:

Bethesda racked in more than 3.5 MILLION copies worth of money in the first 2 days. It was the hottest selling game in the U.K for a bit and it was the Modern Warfare 3 or Battlefield 3 of RPGs during the winter season. I hardly think that just because a couple thousand people pirated it, we should suffer through the singleplayer game problems that Steam has.

Remember Patch 1.5 for Fallout 3? Yeah, I don't want a repeat of that because of Steam.

This is where a lot of people are getting confused. The Ninja patch changed the way the program runs from what some of us bought the game as. We bought the game only needing to 'activate' it through Steam. When that Ninja patch came out and you accidently ran Steam or you went to Steam for something minor, you got the patch whether you wanted it or not. This crippled the game to where you now HAVE TO run Steam to play the game. I call it a 'Bait & Switch'.

If the game would have been published with requirements to have Steam and the Internet to play, then the complaints would be unwarranted as it was a known item before purchasing. However, if some of us have purchased the game knowing full well (and the retail box confirms this) that Steam was needed only for 'activation', this is why some of us are mad. We bought knowing one thing, Activation Needed, but a lot of players were caught off guard when their systems were hijacked by the Ninja patch that broke the existing playability of the game.

Remember, that Ninja patch did not fix anything; it only change the way the game was able to play. You buy the game with a certain set of requirements, you meet them, you play the game, you are having fun; then the Ninja patch broke that for no reason.

So this whole notion of playing offline etc...., this was not part of the original purchase. The original purchase was for activation and that is what some of us expected. We did not approve of some 3rd party software to install on their own a patch that breaks our game play.