TBH I don't get that. And yes, that was Emil Pagriuijgsngsogkjs or whatever his name is, and he's currently the lead writer for Bethesda (so he's the one I need to send my hate mail to!)
Don't get me wrong, the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion was perfectly fine, but it just didn't stand out to me. The Thieves' Guild did. The Dark Brotherhood did a lot of filler quests that, really...I would argue it wasn't how they were WRITTEN that made them fun, but rather the game design that made them fun; the Dark Brotherhood was fun because you had like 4-5 different options on how to complete the mission and the rewards were sweet, NOT because it was especially well written. The Thieves' Guild on the other hand, everything related to the main quest in some way; there was some filler, sure, but it was sort of a package deal and a sub-plot (as in if you did a quest for the Thieves' guild, it either related to it's main storyline or to a sub-plot; there was ONE sub-plot, not multiple random fillers), rather than just random filler going in every direction.

And while the Thieves' Guild kept you guessing until the ending, making you question what the HELL the Gray Fox's motives were while also encouraging you to play along with him for the sake of the glory of it, going down in history as one of the greatest Thieves' ever, the DB questline sort of just suddenly said "btw here's our overlaying plot as we introduce you to act II." Then you enter Act II and again there's tons of repetitive filler not nearly as fun as the ACT I filler amongst the sanctuary, and then a problem is developed just as quickly as it's solved.

To me, the Thieves' Guild did it better. The Thieves' Guild elegantly introduced a couple mysteries to you at the beginning, then unexpectedly tied them all into the plotline, so you got more answers than expected. The Dark Brotherhood's story arch was a little late to the party and failed to tie into any former mysteries or anything really; it all happened within the Dark Brotherhood.
There's a design saying for games in general that says "make it look hard, but play easy" as a way to satisfy people. It's somewhat of a stretch, but I believe the Thieves' Guild was considered so successful because it matches this philosophy in the sense that you had modest, reasonable expectations, but it delivered MORE. The only mystery we're expecting to solve is "who exactly is the Gray Fox." This is our reasonable expectation. By the end though, the Thieves' Guild delivers that AND the answers to several other mysteries on the side. We find hidden meanings behind almost every action we've done. In that sense, I consider it to be one of the best pieces of writing Bethesda produced; perhaps THE best of the three I named.
The Dark Brotherhood, I think was done decently enough but tbh if I'm critical, I think it deserves more criticism than approval. As I said, the Dark Brotherhood's story is late to the party, so for a while we're just enjoying the gameplay, not the story. We HAVE no reasonable expectations of the story because they haven't really given us one. Then suddenly a story reveals itself, and after one mission, it disappears again. Then another ~7 missions later, it pops back up. They could've very well have tied the main story into ANY of the quests we did at that point; we had little reason to believe that ONE we did in particular was pivotal to the storyline. Suddenly we're told "no it was pivotal" and sent to fix the issue-that-we-apparently-haven't-solved-yet and before you know it, we've already solved the problem and the faction is completed.

Likewise, the College of Winterhold as an example receives scathing reviews. Why? We're introduced to dozens of characters and themes, but by the end we know nothing. Our reasonable expectations are to know wtf is going on, wtf that thing/guy/blob is below the college, wtf was the point of the little scenes involving a young arch-mage, what the villain's motivations were etc. In the end though, it delivers none of this.

Again, that the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood was held in higher regard by Bethesda than Oblivion's Thieves' guild? I can only attribute that to falsly attributing the DB's success to it's storyline. No, it's quest design was the best. DB had the best quest design in the game, but not the best story. The Thieves' Guild writer should've been the one that got promoted to lead writer whereas the DB quest-designer should've been promoted to lead quest-designer.

Now you got me curious.

Did...

But that is the point isnt it? DB gave you choice in your quests allowing you to do so many cool things while being part of a catastrophic plot, while the TG was just you doing ALL the leg work for the "great" Gray Fox who is lazy and cant do his own heist. Lucien Lachance and every DB assassin were bad@sses while the Gray Fox was no where near as great as his legend tells

I don't mean to sound rude, cause I can respect your opinion, but to be honest that sort of justification specifically depresses me and makes me worry for the future of Bethesda titles in general.

I can't help but feel like Skyrim content as a whole is driven by this "Rule of Cool," where content is how it is not because it makes any sense, but because it's considered cool. Why do we have Vampire lords? Because it's considered cool. Why the hell does Shadowmere rise out of a bubbling black lake? Rule of cool. Why Skyrim as a location? Because drinking and being a warrior is badass and thus falls under the rule of cool. Personally I can't watch the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1AenlOEXao without cringing at how pretentious it is, desperately trying to portray that Dovahkiin in that same stereotypical badass light that drew so many fans to the Dark Brotherhood. I mean EVERYTHING, right down to the way he raises his head at the same time the dragon rises, is intended to say "look at me I'm such a badass."

If that's your cup of tea, alright, but the idea of the Dark Brotherhood's writer being promoted over the Thieves' guild's writer simply because "the Dark Brotherhood characters were more badass and [censored] all sense and good use of literary tactics within the Thieves' Guild questline," then personally that makes me sick to my stomache just to think about. The problem with that is that this means EVERYTHING can be reduced down to the "rule of cool" until everything has to be badass, which just does NOT work. I honestly don't care if the Gray Fox was considered a badass or not. Hell, personally I consider him badass in his own right, as he's extremely cunning and willing to go to extreme, complicated lengths to reach his goal, while also giving society's general moral code the middle finger and doing things his way when he simply doesn't approve of how they're done.

Being badass, there's nothing wrong with that. I consider Boone, Courier Six, Legate Lanius and Joshua Graham of New Vegas to be "badasses," and I consider every single one to be well-written. But when EVERY single character gives off this pretentious aura of trying too hard to be badass, then it gets old really fast. And with Skyrim? Yeah, I think I've had more than enough of the "rule of cool" and don't think it works.

If there were no badasses in the game it would be very dull, Shadowmere rises because he is a supernatural horse, Skyrim was next on the list, and the VL...well that is just stereotype. But the point is that the DB are EXACTLY what they are meant to be (In OB anyways) as in Assassins, while the Gray Fox doesnt steal anything, just gives orders proving his entire Character to be crap

Yeah, SOME badasses. But all of Skyrim seems to scream "LETS ATTEMPT TO BE BADASS/CONSTANTLY TELL DRAGONBORN HE'S BADASS" and has little room for anything else but.

And the Gray Fox is doing plenty of behind-the-scenes work. He's the mastermind that ties it all together, he's the one that comes up with the plots, he's the one that's working on the how's of the plan while you work on securing the proper tools. Plus, without going into spoilers too much (as the Oblivion's Thieves' Guild is the last quest I care to spoil for anyone), reasons are given as to why he's not -truly- a stereotypical thief.

It's all provided within the story. That's what I love about the Thieves' Guild in Oblivion: all loose ends are tied up and it delivers even more answers than you'd actually initially expect.

I despise all of this whining.

Dawnguard introduces a plethora of new experiences to be had; allowing Bethesda to shed light on a shadowy aspect of the game and provide new content simultaneously is hardly a waste of a DLC. With all the inquiry into Clan Volkihar via readers of http://www.imperial-library.info/content/immortal-blood, it's no wonder that they pursued this route.

I'm glad they finally allowed Vampires a little limelight, as bad for their skin as it might be.

Oh i hate Serana and everything related to her, but that isnt the plot. The story is the Vampire Prophecy and the Elder Scrolls. Serana is just a badly cast actor in the play of Old-School Vamp theatre

Again, that the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood was held in higher regard by Bethesda than Oblivion's Thieves' guild? I can only attribute that to falsly attributing the DB's success to it's storyline. No, it's quest design was the best. DB had the best quest design in the game, but not the best story. The Thieves' Guild writer should've been the one that got promoted to lead writer whereas the DB quest-designer should've been promoted to lead quest-designer.

Which is irrelevant.

The matter at hand is that, for some, cliché and unoriginal ideas are unappealing. Whether Skyrim ripped off an original idea that became successful, or whether Skyrim ripped off an idea that's been done a thousand times before? I can see how that'd matter to some (some might argue ripping off a new, original idea is pathetic, because you're trying to reap rewards from their idea in their lifetime, before they're even done getting their full rewards), but I think in this case it's just a matter of cliché ideas not being super interesting stories, as they're predictable and basic.

I see your avatar is from the Fallout franchise. That entire series is a rip off of post nuke films, and 50's sci-fi movies. Very few games are original ideas. Deal with it.

I will agree that the Vamps in DG are not TES's style. They are built up like a bad horror movie. Gargoyles, Castle, Bat swarm ability, Mist form, Man-Bat form, blocking out the sun, a Court kicking the "lesser" of the species..... I dont feel connected to Nirn at all

I see your avatar is from the Fallout franchise. That entire series is a rip off of post nuke films, and 50's sci-fi movies. Very few games are original ideas. Deal with it.

- Oblivion's DB questline was one of the few written well enough to allow the player to get creative, and that's what I remember (along with the characters - sure, they were one-dimensional, but somehow, it worked). And I agree that the TG had the superior story, which imo blows Skyrim's writing out of the water.

I see your avatar is from the Fallout franchise. That entire series is a rip off of post nuke films, and 50's sci-fi movies. Very few games are original ideas. Deal with it.

Let's get back on topic. This thread is not about Fallout...we have an entire section for Fallout discussion.

There lies the problem. When good lore, story and character are sacrificed for "fun" to make the kids giggle and clap.

Sadly, ever since Morrowind, the ES is going to ruin.

Always got the idea that they copied Babette from Interview with a Vampire.

I see your avatar is from the Fallout franchise. That entire series is a rip off of post nuke films, and 50's sci-fi movies. Very few games are original ideas. Deal with it.

After looking at this DLC very closely...this DLC is like a Van Helsing storyline humans vs Vampires or the movie Blade Trinity.....um Bethesda there are movies, games, tv series that goes into this sort of thing i hope that you DIDN'T take from these various sources because if you did i want my 1600 Microsoft points back!

don't play Dawnguard watch it's various sources to understand or get the shortest story telling ever! lol

Do not ever speak again. Because everything you say is literally, nonsense.

Dawnguard was great. Just because it has crossbows, means it's now a reference to Van Helsing?