[Scott]

I think she actually has an interesting idea, from a marketing point of view. My sister plays some games, but she never got into western rpgs because she didn't like the gameplay part. She was interested in the stories, though, so I think there could just be a market for rpgs with few action elements. A new type of game with elements from adventure and rpg games and visual novels, in a sense.

[AnDres MeZa]

You know Oof, you keep focusing in specifically on Jennifer Hepler's writing in DA2. I loathed DA2 - I use it a as a personal benchmark for game disappointment. It failed on many many levels for me, not just writing. But she also wrote some amazing stuff in Dragon Age Origins, which remains one of my all time favorite games. The Orzammar section was almost all her - and it was excellent writing and storytelling. (In my opinion of course). Take a step back and look at the bigger picture that was the point of the op's article.

KoA is a fun game and a standard RPG. I have found nothing particularly gripping in it's story telling though. The combat is fun and the game is pretty, I may even finish it.

And to the person earlier in the thread who claimed she deserved any insults about her gender, you did not read throug the articles, did you? (Or maybe just looked at the Kotaku thing - I hesitate to call it an article.) The particular comment she made -which frankly, made me laugh - was made after months and months of really ugly comments directed at her, her gender, her writing, her company, her children and what have you. There is no place where that kind of bullying anonymous nastiness is "ok" or "deserved" - not for her, not for you, not for anyone.

I love the story in games. I totally understood where she was coming from in that article from six years ago. But then, I read the interview, and didn't take her comments out of context and try to twist them to some agenda I have. Which seems to be what the people attacking her opted to do.

[Steven Nicholson]

Hrm....did the gaming community go too far in their abuse? Yes. Did Hepler sort of bring this on herself? Yes.

Bioware seriously needs to sort out their PR. The worst possible thing Hepler could have done is exactly what she did. She responded in the same way that a child does; by throwing insults back coupled with a sense of superiority. In reading her reply concerning her "lady parts" she was essentially calling gamers by their stereotype. And if developers cant even move beyond that, then how can the rest of us try to push out of that image? She really should have just shut down her twitter and ended it there, but with other Bioware employees jumping in and swearing at the abusers, all they've done is create another Bioware PR disaster much like we saw around the release of DA2.

The worst part of this is that if I actually saw the fake forum post I would have also been outraged and believed it to be true. Bioware has something of a....'history' of somewhat forcing homosixuality in their games. (For example, turning down Anders homosixual advances in DA2 resulted in rivalry points). As I wasnt aware that Hepler didnt write for Mass Effect, I would have seen that post and thought "Crap, its like DA2 but worse". The mere fact that these lies could be immediatly believed doesnt really say much for people's opinions of Bioware to be honest.

[ILy- Forver]

Hrm....did the gaming community go too far in their abuse? Yes. Did Hepler sort of bring this on herself? Yes.

Bioware seriously needs to sort out their PR. The worst possible thing Hepler could have done is exactly what she did. She responded in the same way that a child does; by throwing insults back coupled with a sense of superiority. In reading her reply concerning her "lady parts" she was essentially calling gamers by their stereotype. And if developers cant even move beyond that, then how can the rest of us try to push out of that image? She really should have just shut down her twitter and ended it there, but with other Bioware employees jumping in and swearing at the abusers, all they've done is create another Bioware PR disaster much like we saw around the release of DA2.

What separates these people from everyone else aside from the fact that they work for a company that wants your money? If they decide to retaliate via personal channels at risk of losing customer loyalty that's Bioware's problem. Was it probably a mistake? Sure, but again, we're talking about individuals operating through channels that aren't officially affiliated with Bioware. That makes it a personal exchange, not an official one. Criticizing the individual for acting no worse than the other side of the exchange is really the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

The worst part of this is that if I actually saw the fake forum post I would have also been outraged and believed it to be true. Bioware has something of a....'history' of somewhat forcing homosixuality in their games. (For example, turning down Anders homosixual advances in DA2 resulted in rivalry points).

Really? I've never felt forced into any of it. The loss of good will with Anders for rebuffing him is a drop in the bucket in the bigger picture.

The mere fact that these lies could be immediatly believed doesnt really say much for people's opinions of Bioware to be honest.

It doesn't say much for people, either. Honestly, IMO the gigantic backlash from peoples' disappointment with DA2 was beyond ridiculous.

[Verity Hurding]

You know Oof, you keep focusing in specifically on Jennifer Hepler's writing in DA2. I loathed DA2 - I use it a as a personal benchmark for game disappointment. It failed on many many levels for me, not just writing. But she also wrote some amazing stuff in Dragon Age Origins, which remains one of my all time favorite games. The Orzammar section was almost all her - and it was excellent writing and storytelling. (In my opinion of course). Take a step back and look at the bigger picture that was the point of the op's article.

I don't actually know that Hepler is a bad writer. That doesn't really matter. I am a bit worried about the reactions that some people are having to this incident and Hepler's suggestions, though. I don't think they should go unanswered. I hadn't clicked through to the OP's link until today. Some of the quotes were absolutely vile. I do empathise with her, to a degree, but I don't want that empathy to cloud what are some issues that do deserve discussion.

I don't disagree with the article. Companies and their employees deserve respect from their customers, if they act accordingly, and vice versa.

At least Hepler gets a paycheck and a lesson out of this: be careful what you say as a public figure. I'd suggest Bioware needs to better prepare its employees for interacting with what is generally a rather immature demographic. (And really? A measly $1000 donation to a charity? Does that impress anyone as Bioware really caring about its employees?)

Anyway, as to the overarching point of the article... Gamers are immature, as a whole. The companies target young demographics, and a lot of the older customers are perpetual men-children. When an industry aims for the lowest common denominator, that's what it gets. What do people expect?

[Roberta Obrien]

Yeah, I had started to read it then I realized that I never played any of the Dragon Age games and that I honestly didn't care who she was or what happened to her.

*Edit

OK, I read it and came to the conclusion that I care even less now than I did before.

Most people grow out of nihilism you know.

[Michelle Chau]

Most people grow out of nihilism you know.

Ah the nihilism phase, those were the days. /wistful look. That phase didn't last too long before I learned the universe is a little too random for it to make a side, let alone pick one from a human perspective.

[kitten maciver]

Most people grow out of nihilism you know.

Wow, this is the first time I've heard someone call disinterest in meaningless drama nihilism.

How dare we not be intensely emotionally vested in this issue of utmost importance; people on the internet insulted someone else on the internet!

[Ryan Lutz]

How dare we not be intensely emotionally vested in this issue of utmost importance; people on the internet insulted someone else on the internet!

Well, at least you understand what you did wrong.

[Ladymorphine]

I do believe though, that the foundation of the internet is a playground for ignorance and should remain to be. If anyone wants to be a part of the online community, they should realize that their mother's integrity or their own self-esteem will come under attack if they expose themselves. It's just a fact of life. Sure, there are plenty of moderated instances where you get banned for calling someone a noob or not returning pixels to their proper owner (lolffxi), but there's always the unadvlterated anything goes Diablo 2 lolrandpubs/edeletekthxbi that is the soul of the internet. Leave well enough alone.

Pretty much this.

[Dj Matty P]

Pretty much this.

You quoted yourself? That's just sad.

[Darrell Fawcett]

Wow, this is the first time I've heard someone call disinterest in meaningless drama nihilism.

How dare we not be intensely emotionally vested in this issue of utmost importance; people on the internet insulted someone else on the internet!

Essentially my thoughts on it all, meaningless drama.

Well, at least you understand what you did wrong.

I'm having a difficult time deciphering whether or not you actually think we should be concerned with this.

[Emilie Joseph]

Hrm....did the gaming community go too far in their abuse? Yes. Did Hepler sort of bring this on herself? Yes.

Bioware seriously needs to sort out their PR. The worst possible thing Hepler could have done is exactly what she did.

What strikes me here is this was really Bioware's problem, not Hepler's, and by not taking control of the problem earlier and more professionally, Bioware has essentially thrown her to the wolves. I'm left with the feeling that someone should have really said "we'll take care of it" (and by implication, "from this point, stay out of it") but that doesn't seem to have happened, except for someone getting involved much too far down the line and making things worse. Given the nature of the company's "audience", you'd think it would be nice if the PR department would take better care of the their employees...

[Eduardo Rosas]

The Internet is a volatile thing. One can't expect to do anything without any possible repercussions.

[Marquis T]

Hadn't paid attention to this until now.... yeesh, internet slime.


Personally, I don't see the issue with a writer not being invested in gameplay. Big games made with big teams.... you make those teams up of people who're good in their specialty. Movies, for instance..... you wouldn't care if the SFX guys don't care about scriptwriting, would you? Or the 3D modelers on Mass Effect... the people modeling the guns, why do they need to care about, say, sound editting?

So why is it a problem that a story writer doesn't care as much about the combat mechanics/gameplay?



As for the whole "how dare there be an option to skip combat"..... doesn't bother me. Actually, when I heard about the new options in ME3 - skip story choices, play normal, skip combat - I thought it was a neat idea. The people who love the story can experience that, the people who like playing the regular game can like that, and the CoD/Gears folks can just play through as a shooter with some cutscenes. Seems like a pretty nifty concept.

(And yeah - considering that the option to skip story has been present in games for a long time, why shouldn't there be an option for the converse? I know there's plenty of games where I've disliked aspects of the mechanics but dragged myself through them because I wanted to see how the story ended. Frequently dropping the difficulty down to minimum, so that the gameplay tedium would be reduced. Dragon Age:Origins, for instance. Even with all the different story and character options - and gratuitous nvde mods , I can't bring myself to play it again - the combat was just sooooo obnoxious.)

[Timara White]

As for the whole "how dare there be an option to skip combat"..... doesn't bother me. Actually, when I heard about the new options in ME3 - skip story choices, play normal, skip combat - I thought it was a neat idea. The people who love the story can experience that, the people who like playing the regular game can like that, and the CoD/Gears folks can just play through as a shooter with some cutscenes. Seems like a pretty nifty concept.

(And yeah - considering that the option to skip story has been present in games for a long time, why shouldn't there be an option for the converse? I know there's plenty of games where I've disliked aspects of the mechanics but dragged myself through them because I wanted to see how the story ended. Frequently dropping the difficulty down to minimum, so that the gameplay tedium would be reduced. Dragon Age:Origins, for instance. Even with all the different story and character options - and gratuitous nvde mods , I can't bring myself to play it again - the combat was just sooooo obnoxious.)

I always considered the story a sort of reward for having the skill and perseverance to complete the game. My line of thinking dates back to the 16-bit era though, where you'd often have to actually practice or grind in order to progress in the games. I mean, if you skip the gameplay in a game focused on combat, the story alone will probably shorten the game to a couple hours long.

Adding easy mode and unlimited lives to everything already made some games a boring chore to play (IMO), letting people skip combat (and the need to hone their skill) will just increase that trend. I grew up with some great games, and younger gamers already find those games 'too hard' because they are used to all this streamlined crap.

[Ebou Suso]

I always considered the story a sort of reward for having the skill and perseverance to complete the game. My line of thinking dates back to the 16-bit era though, where you'd often have to actually practice or grind in order to progress in the games. I mean, if you skip the gameplay in a game focused on combat, the story alone will probably shorten the game to a couple hours long.

Adding easy mode and unlimited lives to everything already made some games a boring chore to play (IMO), letting people skip combat (and the need to hone their skill) will just increase that trend. I grew up with some great games, and younger gamers already find those games 'too hard' because they are used to all this streamlined crap.

Survival of the fittest. Anyone in such a soft time for gamers who somehow can rival older generations of gamers skill will be someone to be feared. Against all odds they decided they really like doing things the difficult way. Those rare players will make the dumbing down of the masses worth it. It's always fun going on a TF2 pub server and massacring it.

[Siidney]

I always considered the story a sort of reward for having the skill and perseverance to complete the game. My line of thinking dates back to the 16-bit era though, where you'd often have to actually practice or grind in order to progress in the games. I mean, if you skip the gameplay in a game focused on combat, the story alone will probably shorten the game to a couple hours long.

Adding easy mode and unlimited lives to everything already made some games a boring chore to play (IMO), letting people skip combat (and the need to hone their skill) will just increase that trend. I grew up with some great games, and younger gamers already find those games 'too hard' because they are used to all this streamlined crap.

My line of thinking goes back well before the 16-bit era, and it goes like this:

http://classicgamesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Super-Mario-Bros-Warp-Zone-2.png
http://prohozhdenie-igr.com/uploads/igra-mario/super-mario-bros.-warp-zones.jpg

So I don't see an issue with the option of skipping content, and the association of this with "streamlined" and "dumbing down" is, to me, rather snobbish nonsense.

[Paula Rose]

My line of thinking goes back well before the 16-bit era, and it goes like this:

http://classicgamesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Super-Mario-Bros-Warp-Zone-2.png
http://prohozhdenie-igr.com/uploads/igra-mario/super-mario-bros.-warp-zones.jpg

So I don't see an issue with the option of skipping content, and the association of this with "streamlined" and "dumbing down" is, to me, rather snobbish nonsense.

A good point, but in Mario you had to actually find the warp zone or warp whistle first, not hit a fast forward button anytime you want. I'm not trying to dictate people's play style (not directly at least), I just have concerns for the games market if it continues on this trend of catering games to everybody, rather than keeping the genres distinct. There are games with good stories where there is none of the combat that these people so dislike.

It's not nonsense to me when most of the games I enjoy now are budget titles that are not catered to the masses. And it's not because they're popular (because I know someone will make that insinuation), it's because they've removed a lot of what makes a game fun to me.

[Jade Barnes-Mackey]

I always considered the story a sort of reward for having the skill and perseverance to complete the game. My line of thinking dates back to the 16-bit era though, where you'd often have to actually practice or grind in order to progress in the games. I mean, if you skip the gameplay in a game focused on combat, the story alone will probably shorten the game to a couple hours long.

Adding easy mode and unlimited lives to everything already made some games a boring chore to play (IMO), letting people skip combat (and the need to hone their skill) will just increase that trend. I grew up with some great games, and younger gamers already find those games 'too hard' because they are used to all this streamlined crap.

I don't think it's anything to do with the era of games, however tempting the "not as good as it used to be" argument seems; my "credentials" are growing up with eight-bit games, but I still find the grinding and practising the same thing over and over to be terribly dull and that's my idea of a chore. I don't like things to be too easy either, but surely that's a subjective matter and giving players a choice is what really counts. "This works for me, so everyone else should be forced to do the same" isn't a very compelling argument.

[Rhi Edwards]

Personally, I don't see the issue with a writer not being invested in gameplay. Big games made with big teams.... you make those teams up of people who're good in their specialty. Movies, for instance..... you wouldn't care if the SFX guys don't care about scriptwriting, would you? Or the 3D modelers on Mass Effect... the people modeling the guns, why do they need to care about, say, sound editting?

So why is it a problem that a story writer doesn't care as much about the combat mechanics/gameplay?

It's almost lke you haven't read through the thread.

[Robert Garcia]

It's almost lke you haven't read through the thread.

Pretty much, yeah. First page, and the (awful, DocSeuss) comments on that Kotaku article. Sorry. But even with an opposing viewpoint, I'll still stand by what I said. I don't see a "you have to be a fan of one to do the other" connection between story and game mechanics. It's the job of the project leads in a multi-disciplinary team, to make sure that they're all working toward a coherent goal.

[Yung Prince]

Regardless of her writing skills and opinions, it doesn't warrant personal attacks on her. She might be in the wrong line of work, but it might be that she is just working for the wrong company; in an atmosphere not necessarily appropriate to her.

[asako]

Read through the OP's article... For a writer, she severely lacks tact. Instead of cutting straight to "games are too long, need fast forward button" and leaving the "oh but I have a newborn on the way, is why" as an afterthought is borderline [censored]. Whatever, people are stupid all the time. If you get off on making fun of fat writer chicks, go for it; meanwhile, I'll be doing something less pathetic.

Edit: [censored] word is an adjective meaning "less advanced, esp. mentally, than is usual for one's age."

[jessica robson]

I don't see a "you have to be a fan of one to do the other" connection between story and game mechanics. It's the job of the project leads in a multi-disciplinary team, to make sure that they're all working toward a coherent goal.

Let's put it this way, then. Which team do you think will produce a better product: the team in which no one much cares about what anyone else is doing and, indeed, doesn't much care for the core aspects of the product; or a team in which people are interested also about how the other disciplines may synergise ( I hate corporate speak) with their own work, and in which people do appreciate the base aspects of the product?

I know which product I'd rather buy. Chances are that the latter product will be superior.

... but it might be that she is just working for the wrong company; in an atmosphere not necessarily appropriate to her.

That's part of my impression, as well. The different disciplines at Bioware seem to be at cross-purposes with each other. That, or (the more likely explanation) the management at EA is clueless. I'd be interested in seeing a game where she's the lead writer and people haven't gotten in her way. I don't know if it would be good, but I'm almost certain it would be better than the products she has been working on.