Did the Gaming Community go to far in their attacks against

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 3:03 pm

Her writing svcks and she dislike games and wants the game play taken out of them, making them a $60 movie.
How is this any way good?

She is in the wrong industry. its great she has a job though.

If she could write it would be different, all of her books are a disaster.
Not liking something and working on it yields sub par results opposed to someone who likes what they are doing.

Edit.
I think she got we she deserved, and I have stated my opinion so I am done here.
I saw M.I.T.H (her book (its actually a comic)) uploaded. It was aweful, no redeeming qualities, at all.

If she wants sole focus on the story, and dosent like games, she could just write books... Oh wait, she tried and [censored] up so bad, she ended up writing for a medium she dosent even like. She should just find another job, and keep writing as a hobby. Allthough that wont change becuase bioware for some reason keeps her.

However, I dont think that justifies what happened, she is a horrible writer yes. She even deserved the comments about her gender (she was the one, who got genger envolved, with her stupid and childish comment), but telling her to kill herself, thats just pathetic.
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I’m my own
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 11:05 pm

I saw M.I.T.H (her book (its actually a comic)) uploaded. It was aweful, no redeeming qualities, at all.

If she wants sole focus on the story, and dosent like games, she could just write books... Oh wait, she tried and [censored] up so bad, she ended up writing for a medium she dosent even like. She should just find another job, and keep writing as a hobby. Allthough that wont change becuase bioware for some reason keeps her.

However, I dont think that justifies what happened, she is a horrible writer yes. She even deserved the comments about her gender (she was the one, who got genger envolved, with her stupid and childish comment), but telling her to kill herself, thats just pathetic.
Again she deserves a little reality check, but the gender comments? No. If people want to play high and mighty, they must be high and mighty. I haven't seen a soul like that yet. Also I agree she might be best in a field where she would be more interested in it, I mean who doesn't work better when it's fun? But in this crap economy? And a writer? You know how hard it is to break into? The fact that she has a slightly stable job for the moment must be wonders for her. It's not an easy field and it's definitely not an easy time. More so with the whole e-book (alleged bubble some might claim) happening. It's just so hard to break into and make any money off of. People are giving books away for free and hoping to make money later on other books. Anything to get readers. This is another discussion for another time, but my point is. It's not so easy to just go and get a new job.
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louise tagg
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 1:52 am

She even deserved the comments about her gender (she was the one, who got genger envolved, with her stupid and childish comment), but telling her to kill herself, thats just pathetic.

I don't think the gender comments were called for, but she did mostly bring it on herself. Besides, plenty of men are called fat [censored]s on the internet, too. There's another issue here, but it's too much of a tangent, so I'll not be taking the discussion there.
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LijLuva
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Again she deserves a little reality check, but the gender comments? No. If people want to play high and mighty, they must be high and mighty. I haven't seen a soul like that yet. Also I agree she might be best in a field where she would be more interested in it, I mean who doesn't work better when it's fun? But in this crap economy? And a writer? You know how hard it is to break into? The fact that she has a slightly stable job for the moment must be wonders for her. It's not an easy field and it's definitely not an easy time. More so with the whole e-book (alleged bubble some might claim) happening. It's just so hard to break into and make any money off of. People are giving books away for free and hoping to make money later on other books. Anything to get readers. This is another discussion for another time, but my point is. It's not so easy to just go and get a new job.
"they are just jealous I have a [censored], and a job in the industry". Why bring up gender ? She had no reason too, but decided to use it as a defence agaisnt criticism. If she didnt I would agree, but becuase she did, it was self inflicted.

If bioware wants to keep her employed for whatever reason, thats fine. But you cant be a writer if you cant write. Some people love football, others like the idea of being doctors. Unless they are good enough, they dont get the job, its how the world works, and its how the world should work.
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Poetic Vice
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 2:38 am

She brought them on herself yes, but I don't think she deserved them. Sometimes all you have to do is get people to calm down and then they'll talk more sensibly. She can write, because she has a job. Subjective is as subjective does. She's obviously good enough to have a job. If you don't like her that's entirely a personal problem. There's no proof she's bad because it's in the eye of the beholder.
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JaNnatul Naimah
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 7:37 pm

She brought them on herself yes, but I don't think she deserved them. Sometimes all you have to do is get people to calm down and then they'll talk more sensibly. She can write, because she has a job. Subjective is as subjective does. She's obviously good enough to have a job. If you don't like her that's entirely a personal problem. There's no proof she's bad because it's in the eye of the beholder.
M.I.TH

You can say its subjective all you want, but it would be like me saying my immortal was a masterpiece. Some things are just bad.
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Rodney C
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 2:01 pm

M.I.TH

You can say its subjective all you want, but it would be like me saying my immortal was a masterpiece. Some things are just bad.
M.I.T.H?

Also there's a certain degree of good/bad scale. But there's nothing definitive. I can just as likely find all of those "masterwork" pieces of art are piles of crap. And on occasion have. So yes, it's still subjective, with just a tad of a scale in there. Since humans are built like that. So if you want to prove it's not subjective feel free to do that, right now. Prove it, I want science for this one.

/popcorn

The fact that she has a job as a writer and you don't tells me a lot about this alleged "scale".

The fact that this falls under philosophy means it's likely no side will ever prove anything at all. Because you can't, that's why it falls under philosophy. Maybe someday in the far flung future, but right now? Not happening. A limitation of the human condition.
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Rebekah Rebekah Nicole
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:37 am

Her genital comment came after a storm of a abuse, which in turn had come after a long season of lightly raining abuse. She absolutely did not initiate the gender comments. I was fairly present on the BioWare forums at and after DA2 launched, and I saw a fair bit of sixist abuse aimed at her from... I want to say day three onwards. But even just in this recent wave, she was being attacked on the basis of her gender before she brought it up herself.

As well, isn't one of Kingdoms of Amalur's big selling points that the story was written by R.A. Salvatore? I haven't heard anything about him being all that enthusiastic of a gamer. And he's far from the first well-known writer to be doing this sort of thing. (Orson Scott Card, for example.)
Orscon Scott Card wrote for a game? :blink: :biggrin:
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Eileen Müller
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:15 am

Okay, let's compare KoA and DA2.

KoA is fun, it has good combat, and the story, while generally bland, rushed and reliant on tropes, is still much better implemented than is DA2's. Now, why could this be?

1. KoA knows it's a game, first and foremost, rather than a visual novel or a movie or a book.
2. Everyone involved in KoA seems to really love fantasy, comics and video games. http://www.pop-gamer.com/2012/02/r-a-salvatore-does-amalur-press-rounds-reddit-ama/
3. KoA intertwines gameplay and story better than does DA2. The monsters and environments are more varied, and are tailored to whatever story it is that Salvatore is trying to tell. You don't have awkward cuts between combat and narration, like you do in DA2. While pacing and story arcs can all reasonably be expected to be the job of the writer, Big Huge seems to have taken it on itself to either create a great team that works very well together and/or to have someone direct Salvatore really well.
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JLG
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 4:19 pm

Okay, let's compare KoA and DA2.

KoA is fun, it has good combat, and the story, while generally bland, rushed and reliant on tropes, is still much better implemented than is DA2's. Now, why could this be?

1. KoA knows it's a game, first and foremost, rather than a visual novel or a movie or a book.
2. Everyone involved in KoA seems to really love fantasy, comics and video games. http://www.pop-gamer.com/2012/02/r-a-salvatore-does-amalur-press-rounds-reddit-ama/
3. KoA intertwines gameplay and story better than does DA2. The monsters and environments are more varied, and are tailored to whatever story it is that Salvatore is trying to tell. You don't have awkward cuts between combat and narration, like you do in DA2. While pacing and story arcs can all reasonably be expected to be the job of the writer, Big Huge seems to have taken it on itself to either create a great team that works very well together and/or to have someone direct Salvatore really well.
It should also be noted that Salvatore was the "visionary" behind the game - he designed the history, setting, peoples, and the rest of the lore, but it was the writers/designers at Big Huge (and 38 Studios) who wrote the individual stories and implemented them. It is up to them to understand game pacing and limitations and write around them.

Did the attacks go to far? Oh hell yes. No matter how much her writing may svck, or how much one may disagree with her comments, personal attacks like that are not OK.
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JAY
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 9:05 pm

2. Everyone involved in KoA seems to really love fantasy, comics and video games. http://www.pop-gamer.com/2012/02/r-a-salvatore-does-amalur-press-rounds-reddit-ama/

Point is invalid:

Despite what she says, she loves playing games, but her tastes show games with story emphasis over anything else. Throughout the interview on Killer Bettie she mentions Jade Empire and Deus Ex as among her favorite games of all time, as well as several pen and paper RPGs including Pre-third edition Shadowrun, Book of Five Rings and World of Darkness games. In fact, Hepler has a background in writing pen and paper RPGs before signing on with Bioware, penning several Shadowruncompanion books, and works for RPG tabletops Earthdawn and Paranoia.
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carly mcdonough
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 11:57 pm

Point is invalid:
[snip]

Exactly. She likes story over gameplay. I've read her interviews, too. She regularly shunts gameplay to the side. She never talks about combining the two in interesting ways. It's always: meh, gameplay is okay, but I love story! :teehee:

It should also be noted that Salvatore was the "visionary" behind the game - he designed the history, setting, peoples, and the rest of the lore, but it was the writers/designers at Big Huge (and 38 Studios) who wrote the individual stories and implemented them. It is up to them to understand game pacing and limitations and write around them.

I don't know much about the other, more "specific" writers for KoA. But, as you and I have pointed out, if a writer of one medium writes for another, his or her work is always adapted by script doctors who are knowledgeable and skilled in the medium to which the original writer is porting his or her work.

From what I know of Big Huge and 38, they seem to have a really good team of people whose niche is fantasy.
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Jimmie Allen
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:12 am

DOUBLE. POST.
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Harry Leon
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 2:26 am

Exactly. She likes story over gameplay. I've read her interviews, too. She regularly shunts gameplay to the side. She never talks about combining the two in interesting ways. It's always: meh, gameplay is okay, but I love story! :teehee:
Go to the Skyrim section, or the FONV section. Go see how people love the fact that they can skip combat by dialogue and how they lament the fact that it is not a facet in Skyrim as much as in FONV. Now, why aren't people berating Obsidian writers for being able to circumvent combat, thats all she is asking, they did it and people love 'em for it.
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Campbell
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:30 am

Now, why aren't people berating Obsidian writers for being able to circumvent combat, thats all she is asking, they did it and people love 'em for it.

It's perfectly reasonable to skip combat if there's more to the game than just combat. In DA2, there isn't. (I shall be ignoring anyone who tries to suggest that dialogue options in DA2 made any difference to the story.) What's the point of skipping combat for cutscenes? Go watch a movie.

Now, if you, for instance, have persuasion checks for dialogue (e.g. The Witcher), or puzzles that you have to figure out (Portal), then you have a point. Otherwise? No. Bioware is combat and cutscenes. I can understand why people would be angry at the suggestion to skip combat.
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Ricky Rayner
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 12:14 am

How is this even a question? Irrespective of her stance on video game design and the quality of her writing (which I'm not familiar with and don't care about), such comments are never, ever justified. Unfortunately this sort of nastiness is far too common, but that doesn't mean we just have to accept it.
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 5:08 am



It's perfectly reasonable to skip combat if there's more to the game than just combat. In DA2, there isn't. (I shall be ignoring anyone who tries to suggest that dialogue options in DA2 made any difference to the story.) What's the point of skipping combat for cutscenes? Go watch a movie.

Now, if you, for instance, have persuasion checks for dialogue (e.g. The Witcher), or puzzles that you have to figure out (Portal), then you have a point. Otherwise? No. Bioware is combat and cutscenes. I can understand why people would be angry at the suggestion to skip combat.
Maybe her goal is to institute that kind of thing in the DA series, we don't know, all she said was she would like to skip combat. And games that let you skip combat are praised for the ability, so why bash her for that? I don't understand the double standard here.
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Adam Baumgartner
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 10:17 pm

Exactly. She likes story over gameplay. I've read her interviews, too. She regularly shunts gameplay to the side. She never talks about combining the two in interesting ways. It's always: meh, gameplay is okay, but I love story! :teehee:
I don't know. My wife is kind of the same way. She's a gamer, but she does have very specific tastes, and not all games appeal to her on the same level that they do me. At the moment, we're finishing up on our most recent playthroughs of Mass Effect 2, in preparation for Mass Effect 3.

She loves that game. But she sees the combat in that game as a necessary evil she must pass through to be rewarded for the more dialog-intensive parts. She has fun with the game, but she's far more interested in talking to her crew, learning more about them, pursuing relationships, etc - than she is with (what she considers) trudging through the combat portions of the game.

Many times, I have to step in and help her through a particularly difficult combat (and this is on Easy difficulty.) Because she just can't seem to get through it, and starts to get frustrated. She doesn't have too many fond memories of the any of the combat, but she's always pausing and coming to talk to me about things her character has done in other parts of the game.

It just doesn't seem all that strange to me that someone who works in the videogame industry as a writer, feels that the writing in a videogame is more important. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that a videogame writer feels that their role in the process is sort of... important to the game. It's not her job to come up with novel ways of combining story and gameplay in a compelling manner. :shrug:

And I can't help but keep coming back to this - the internet as a whole is a pretty hostile place for the most part. Videogame fans certainly aren't the only examples of this. I love the passion my chosen sub-culture shows for their hobby of choice. But the downside is still this sense of ownership and entitlement that some people choose to hold for what, at the end of the day, is still an optional luxury item that it's not going to kill anyone to not have.

If you don't like the story, or specific elements of a game - that's fine. Criticize it all you want. Even argue that someone is poor at their job. But the level of hyperbole and hostility that comes out in some of this is just totally uncalled-for. Personal attacks do nothing to advance anyone's agenda, and the idea that people are now playing at being offended by responses those associated with Bioware have made in regards to this - is just ludicrous, and frankly kind of disgusts me.

I can't pretend to have any respect for someone who calls a woman (or a man) a derogatory and hate-filled term, and then acts shocked if they get called on it. And as soon as it gets to that level of "discourse," I can't help but dismiss any opinions those children might have had before it got to that point.
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Taylor Thompson
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 9:26 pm

I haven't played DA:2 or more than 5 minutes of DA:O, so I don't really know anything about these games except from popular opinion.

I do believe though, that the foundation of the internet is a playground for ignorance and should remain to be. If anyone wants to be a part of the online community, they should realize that their mother's integrity or their own self-esteem will come under attack if they expose themselves. It's just a fact of life. Sure, there are plenty of moderated instances where you get banned for calling someone a noob or not returning pixels to their proper owner (lolffxi), but there's always the unadvlterated anything goes Diablo 2 lolrandpubs/edeletekthxbi that is the soul of the internet. Leave well enough alone.
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tiffany Royal
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 6:42 pm

Maybe her goal is to institute that kind of thing in the DA series, we don't know, all she said was she would like to skip combat. And games that let you skip combat are praised for the ability, so why bash her for that? I don't understand the double standard here.

This is the internet. :shrug: Anyone who's been on it for more than a day knows what online discourse entails. Considering that Bioware seems to have a lot of passionate, and a lot of young, and a lot of hot-headed, fans (and detractors), people working for Bioware should know what to expect when they say things that seem, at first glance, to be totally contrary to what Bioware is about -- that is, video games. The problem with interviews is that it's easy to misrepresent yourself, or to be misrepresented. I also think other writers at Bioware may have tinted people's perceptions of Bioware writers in general...

I don't know. My wife is kind of the same way. She's a gamer, but she does have very specific tastes, and not all games appeal to her on the same level that they do me. At the moment, we're finishing up on our most recent playthroughs of Mass Effect 2, in preparation for Mass Effect 3.

[snip]

Nu_clear, I understand you and your wife's position, and I'm not against it. What bothers me most about the idea of skipping combat is this: it's a superficial catering to a demographic. Instead of, for instance, allowing diplomatic solutions to conflict, or allowing you to boost your edge in combat, through, say, the hiring of mercenaries, so that you're never in danger of dying, allowing you to skip combat in ME would be a disingenuous, short-sighted and empty gesture of welcome to people who aren't "really"/typical gamers.

Compare cinema and video games. Cinema has enough niche genres and products that everyone can find something they like. This is not the case with video games. I'd like to see us offering the option of diplomacy, or strategy, or ingenuity, rather than removing (metaphor alert) what makes Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris. Can you imagine something like Walker Texas Ranger with all of the combat cut out? It would be even more terrible than it originally was.

Combat isn't just there for gameplay purposes. (It shouldn't be, anyway... ) It's also there for pacing. Remove the combat from ME. What do you have? You have a series of disjointed, awkward cutscenes. Now, if you could replace that combat with something else, such as fierce negotiation, or haggling with mercenaries as to how much it will cost for them to do X, Y and Z... :goodjob:

Or, better yet, release another space opera franchise that doesn't rely as heavily on combat.

As for the interaction between story and gameplay. It's true that it is other people's job to implement the writers' work, and if this implementation is botched (like it was in DA2) it can lead to horrible results. Can you see how the inverse could be true, too? How a writer could negatively impact the work of the coders, designers, editors and artists? A video game is a collaborative effort. If you don't understand and enjoy it, you really shouldn't be in the industry. That goes for any industry.

As regards your comments about how the interwebs have treated Hepler, and the level of discourse around this issue: I agree.
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:)Colleenn
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 9:11 pm

I can't believe that people are seriously comparing KoA to DA2. I love them both to death, but besides the fact that both games are remarkable for actually having an art style (which is rare in RPGs) and the fact that they both have non-linear skill trees... they're just not the same at all...
Exactly. She likes story over gameplay. I've read her interviews, too. She regularly shunts gameplay to the side. She never talks about combining the two in interesting ways. It's always: meh, gameplay is okay, but I love story! :teehee:
So? That's not your cup of tea, and I totally get that, but she's not wrong. Most CRPGs are about the combat. She likes the idea of playing a game that's just about the story. She's proposing a different sort of game. Is there something wrong about that? There are games that entirely bypass the combat aspect of RPGs and focus entirely on the merchant aspects. Are they wrong?
It's perfectly reasonable to skip combat if there's more to the game than just combat. In DA2, there isn't. (I shall be ignoring anyone who tries to suggest that dialogue options in DA2 made any difference to the story.) What's the point of skipping combat for cutscenes? Go watch a movie.
So what if all that most of her dialog options amount to is a different way of reaching the same goal. That's exactly how RPG combat works. I've never won a fight in two different styles and seen how it produced radically different results.
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flora
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 7:04 pm

Personal attacks do nothing to advance anyone's agenda, and the idea that people are now playing at being offended by responses those associated with Bioware have made in regards to this - is just ludicrous, and frankly kind of disgusts me.
That's because everyday more and more people are hooked up to the interwebz/matrix.. and since all the bright and shiny peoples were hooked up first, the collective intelligence and common decency is progressively sliding downward, like...

..ever seen the movie Idiocracy?

You get the idea. :yes:
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latrina
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:46 pm

I can't believe that people are seriously comparing KoA to DA2. I love them both to death, but besides the fact that both games are remarkable for actually having an art style (which is rare in RPGs) and the fact that they both have non-linear skill trees... they're just not the same at all...

[snip]

KoA is what DA2 was trying to be, minus the character interaction.

For a reply to the rest of your comment, see my reply to Nu_clear.
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Angelina Mayo
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 12:55 am

Followed the links to a sampling of the tweets being flung at her.... absolutely disgusting. Those people should be ashamed of their behavior. There is no excuse.
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Darren
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 8:33 pm

For what she said on twitter and then what she has said before, yes. She got exactly what she had coming to her.

The things she said on twitter made both her and Bioware/EA looks bad and showed that she has no PR skills and no love for gaming.
She has started many times that she hates the "gameplay" part of a game. Then why are you in the game industry?
Go write some more garbage books with the skill of a 14 year old, or go write for movies.
So, because she's a bad fit for the job she was hired for (subjective) it's ok for people to assault her Twitter account with personal attacks and insults that have nothing to do with her work?

She said on twitter this among other things,

http://www.ps3trophies.com/forums/general-ps3-discussion/12218-jennifer-helper-bioware-writer-vs-internet.html
So, she retaliated on her personal Twitter account, and she wasn't anywhere close to as rude as the people that attacked her in the first place. What would you have done in that position?

Then here is a good comparison.
http://i.imgur.com/ZiIDV.jpg
I don't disagree that Ree has much better qualifications. What does that have to do with Hepler's weight or appearance?

She tried to write novels and failed, and her game writing is not much better. Bioware have a massive PR blunder to deal with.
So has no business writing for game, her novels flopped and now she is a advlt that "can't take the heat" and acted like a child.
Waahhh they made fun of me.
To be fair, they went way past making fun of her. People said some really nasty things, and a LOT of them. I agree that she would have been better off just deleting the account and moving on, but I don't agree that she did anything all that outlandish. Whether you like her work or think she's qualified to do what she does or not, criticizing her work (which would have been appropriate) isn't the same as making someone a focal point for pure, personal hatred. Ok, so people were disappointed with Dragon Age 2. It's a game. Air your specific complaints about the product with Bioware, get the [censored] over it, and move on. :shrug: If any part of this story can be described as "childish" it's the part about personally attacking a writer because you're butthurt about their work on a game.
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Davorah Katz
 
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