Essential : V

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:00 pm

Something I've noticed increasingly over the last week is the number of essential NPCs there are.
This has gotten rather annoying to deal with, when I'm getting bored of doing quests and looting places I just want to vent some anger by massacring a whole town but I can't because the vast majoirty of them just keep getting back up.

Why is there a need to have so many essential characters, most of whom aren't related to the main quest - like the Dark Brotherhood for example, what is the point in joing such factions if you can't just all of a sudden turn on them and crown yourself conquerer of Skyrim :shrug:

If there is going to be a TES VI I'd like to see every character killable, even if they have quests attached to them - people have to deal with those consequences.

Does anyone else find the amount of essential NPCs annoying and momentum breaking?

Best suggested fix so far IMO:

Spoiler

Two problems arise. Problem A is there are too many unkillable characters. Problem B is that too many characters would die from random creature attacks.

Solutions:

Make appropriate characters flee from attacks, rather than charge straight at them. Nazeem, you are a farmer. Don't go after the Blood Dragon, let the guards handle it. Just go hide in your farm or the nearest open building. Guards and Soldiers should attack dragons, civilians and common riffraff should not.

Make the needed essential characters essential to everyone but the player. That prevents them from being killed in any random attack, but still lets the player kill them. Maybe with some kind of added safety cap like needing to hit them an extra 3 times when they are yielding. Sneak attacks that would be one shot kills bypass this rule as it is hard to accidentally assassinate someone.

If you combine these things the odds of an essential NPC dying is extremely low, considering a dragon would have to run them down, get their health down, and then you would accidentally have to hit them after that, possibly more than once if there was an additional amount of hits needed. All before they flee into a house.

Problem solved if you ask me.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:16 pm

Something I've noticed increasingly over the last week is the number of essential NPCs there are.
This has gotten rather annoying to deal with, when I'm getting bored of doing quests and looting places I just want to vent some anger by massacring a whole town but I can't because the vast majoirty of them just keep getting back up.

Why is there a need to have so many essential characters, most of whom aren't related to the main quest - like the Dark Brotherhood for example, what is the point in joing such factions if you can't just all of a sudden turn on them and crown yourself conquerer of Skyrim :shrug:

If there is going to be a TES VI I'd like to see every character killable, even if they have quests attached to them - people have to deal with those consequences.

Does anyone else find the amount of essential NPCs annoying and momentum breaking?

NO! Then we would have loooaaads of complaints of people not being able to complete quests

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:59 am

When you feel like killing everyone, go and play some grand theft auto.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:32 pm

NO! Then we would have loooaaads of complaints of people not being able to complete quests

Then those people should be careful as to where they fire their next fireball or swing their blade.
Thats the point in their being consequences for your careless actions.

When you feel like killing everyone, go and play some grand theft auto.

When I feel like posting, I at least attempt to contribute an idea/suggestion to the topic.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:23 pm

While I am not the murder spree type of player, I can't see the point of doing the civil war for, say, the Stormcloaks, then being unable to wipe out the Imperial camps. And how many would love to kill Maven?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:49 pm

Essential characters kind of ruin the rpg feel, I mean if a dragon swoops down and massacres a town, killing everyone, then that's your fault that you couldn't stop it. That would make the threat of dragons attacking much more real. Also I originally thought that was how it'd be, so I was more intent on taking them down quickly. Now it just doesn't seem to matter.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:56 pm

Then those people should be careful as to where they fire their next fireball or swing their blade.
Thats the point in their being consequences for your careless actions.

And those players who's npc dies in a random robbing or a dragon attack?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:30 pm

When I feel like posting, I at least attempt to contribute an idea/suggestion to the topic.

I do when the topic isn't nonsense.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:02 pm

I see the point of essential characters, but I think there needs to be so many extra non essentials added in, that have more character in them than just saying "do you get to the cloud district very often?" I would love more lovable guys who weren't actually important. It'd be like a friend dying in a dragon attack. Sad stuff

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:26 am

It's all part of Betheda's goal to appeal to a broader audience.

While a lot of the more experienced fans would know better than to run around killing everyone in sight like a GTA game - or accept the consequences for doing so - a lot of gamers would do it and then whine about all the quests that are unavailable to them.

It's a lot like essential quest related items. Bethesda have to cater to the idiots who would whine that they've failed a quest because they lost a certain item.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:28 pm

NO! Then we would have loooaaads of complaints of people not being able to complete quests

THIS

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:28 pm

I hate how the essential status is done, but I can also see why it's there. The dragons are the main reason it's there. Since dragons can kill almost anyone at any time. What I hate about is how the most unimportant NPCs are given the essential status such as the drunk in Windhelm who's only purpose is to brawl with him and the Jarl/servents after the civil war. Not to mention those stormcloak/legion officers after the civil war also.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:23 pm

While I am not the murder spree type of player, I can't see the point of doing the civil war for, say, the Stormcloaks, then being unable to wipe out the Imperial camps. And how many would love to kill Maven?

Nor am I, usually, but I would like the victim of my onslaught to stay down, there is nothing worse than fighting a guy for 5mins to realise he's just going to keep getting up.
I'm doing a run right now and I had ransacked a Legion camp where the commanding officer was Essential - I found this one of the daftest things in the camp, there is no point in have a faction camp that can't be wiped out.

And those players who's npc dies in a random robbing or a dragon attack?

BooHoo you couldn't save them and they couldn't defend themselves - its part of RPing.
Like PoorCicero said it kills the intensity of the dragons if they won't actually kill the whole town.

I do when the topic isn't nonsense.

Explain how this is nonsense?
Its a legit topic to talk about since there are so many never dying NPCs

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:17 pm

It's a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion, especially when you see the sheer http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Essential_NPCs of essentials.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:15 pm

Explain how this is nonsense?
Its a legit topic to talk about since there are so many never dying NPCs

Why does it matter that some NPC's can't die, if you want to massacre everything you see go play GTA instead, this game is not made for bloodthirsty kids.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:29 pm

Why does it matter that some NPC's can't die, if you want to massacre everything you see go play GTA instead, this game is not made for bloodthirsty kids.

Because it's supposed to be a role playing game. If I wanna role play as a guy with a split personality who kills for lolz then I sure as hell want people to die. If I'm doing my Stormcloak duties and killing Legionnaires I sure as hell want there camps to be gutted of life - not left with a commander left claiming to be a survivor when he should be dead. When I blast the Greybeard off a tower and down a mountain for being pathetic and annoying I want him dead, not to climb back up like it never happened.
I don't care for some daft GTA game stop going on about it.
The game is for RPing, I want to be free in my RPing, essential characters take a large portion of that away.

You say it's no made for bloodthristy kids - thats an exact reason why there should be little to no essential characters - people need to deal with the consequences of their actions, you'd be childish to think having essential is completely great, I'd assume you play as a very linear character...

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:31 pm

Don't you see how stupid what you are saying sounds, you bought the game to roleplay as a mass murderer and you are unhappy that you can't. The dev's have much bigger problems they need to address in this game than your ADHD.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:42 pm

The only time this has bothered me was cleaning out army camps, I was tasked with destroying them but the leaders just fall down on their knees ... kinda dumb.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:49 pm

Why does it matter that some NPC's can't die, if you want to massacre everything you see go play GTA instead, this game is not made for bloodthirsty kids.

I don't want to play GTA, I want to play Skyrim, and be able to kill Legates, because not being able to do so, considering this game has a civil war plot, does not make any sense whatsoever. In fact if you were to make this game for 'kids', essential characters would definitely figure, and make less sense in a game for mature gamers who are prepared to live with the consequences of their actions.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:45 am

Don't you see how stupid what you are saying sounds, you bought the game to roleplay as a mass murderer and you are unhappy that you can't. The dev's have much bigger problems they need to address in this game than your ADHD.

Did I say a mass murderer was all I wanted to roleplay as? No I didn't I merely suggested my guy had a disorder for the purpose of RPing.
But basically what you say is correct, I am unhappy that I can't roleplay as I want in a game made for the roleplayin genre.

The devs are too late to fix this problem and that why if you bothered reading the OP I suggest that essential characters be removed or severely reduced in the next game. It stupid that even by playing on a high difficulty doesn't even have consequences like the death of every character being possible.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:05 pm

It's a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion, especially when you see the sheer http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Essential_NPCs of essentials.

WTF? Really? There are that many? Effing handholding man! Can we at least have an option for this that removes the essential tags and instead just gives us the old morrowind message? You have severed a thread of fate. Reload your game or live in the doomed world you have created blah blah blah. Something like that. Much better imo. I am an advlt. Let me deal with the consequences. If I want to fail a quest because of petty revenge. Let me. Maybe I just want to kill them and reload. Maven Black-briar and her son specifically need some attention..

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:17 pm

Did I say a mass murderer was all I wanted to roleplay as? No I didn't I merely suggested my guy had a disorder for the purpose of RPing.
But basically what you say is correct, I am unhappy that I can't roleplay as I want in a game made for the roleplayin genre.

The devs are too late to fix this problem and that why if you bothered reading the OP I suggest that essential characters be removed or severely reduced in the next game. It stupid that even by playing on a high difficulty doesn't even have consequences like the death of every character being possible.

The guy has a disorder so you can go killing everything in a village for no reason and give it an excuse, that is not RP'ing.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:29 am

The guy has a disorder so you can go killing everything in a village for no reason and give it an excuse, that is not RP'ing.

This entire argument is a strawman, aimed at a supposition you have made about the OP, and refusing to address major issues concerning role playing that have nothing to do with 'I leiks teh murderin'.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:12 pm

Don't you see how stupid what you are saying sounds, you bought the game to roleplay as a mass murderer and you are unhappy that you can't. The dev's have much bigger problems they need to address in this game than your ADHD.

Hohoo, hater & a troll in the same package.

I agree with Papafern with these essential characters. They indeed stop the flow of the game way too many times. Witness that cannot be killed ? C'mon now !

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:35 am

Hohoo, hater & a troll in the same package.

I agree with Papafern with these essential characters. They indeed stop the flow of the game way too many times. Witness that cannot be killed ? C'mon now !

Yes but even that's silly, if you stole something from a shop and got witnessed, the more believable RP route is to kill everything in sight rather than run?