Curious about this havok issue people speak of. Does it happen in the same area if you place an actual static object, say some of the rocks or trim, RockPileL02Rocks01 for instance? Do the actors still behave the same way when standing on the static if it's placed above or blended into the heightmap? And are the heightmaps that are having this issue navmeshed?

If I'm not making any sense or this has already been answered, please ignore.

The problem is that they simply do not care. They're in it for the money... and they've already gotten it. They can make TES: VI for consoles only, and it may very well outsell Skyrim. Bethesda has lost it's soul as a game developer. Don't get me wrong, it's always been about the money... but it USED to be about the product also.

Sadly, Bethesda isn't the only one guilty of this. Red Storm Entertainment had its soul stolen by Ubisoft. Sadly, Ubisoft also took Gearbox Software's soul. And I have no idea what happened to Bioware... but it seems it could be on the same course, though I still have hope for it.

Unfortunately, I can't help but believe that this "next generation" has dealt gaming a grave wound. I don't know if it will recovery anytime soon... if ever. Between micro-transactions, steam-integration, and money-pinching publishers who don't want to take risks, but instead want to turn every unique game series into a clone of the flavor-of-the-month, and STILL EXPECT players to buy their games, I don't see much good coming anytime soon.


Now... PLEASE... somebody tell me I'm wrong!

Havok requires a fixed worldsize (for broadspace calculation) to be decalred ... Or at least it did. Outside of that declared world-space, havok physics fail.

This issue appears to be a demonstration of that fact.

And yes, it is as easy as a developer simply increasing the havok world size ... but not necessarily in a way that keeps low-end PCs and consoles chugging along.

Ranting will get no one, no where ... As people are starting to do, in this and other threads, workarounds are what you need (including seperate world-spaces, inside the apparently set limits, with loading screens and appropriately designed world bottlenecks) ... Or back to Oblivion you apparently go.

Question: did any find a similar limit in Oblivion - I never modded that - I believe both Skyrim and Oblivion used Havok 9? If they did, what was that limit?

You know, I agree with you that overall the game industry is becoming a big 'make as much as we can' ordeal, but I actually think Bethesda still rests on the outermost ring of this. People say they ruined TES and made Skyrim too different, but honestly; from an honest game design standpoint I think that about 90% of the large changes made were actually really good. They got rid of uneeded stuff, added other things. A fantastic improvement.

The main issue with companies like EA and Ubisoft, is that everyone complains about them, yet they all continue to buy their games. If everyone were to just honestly not buy games that they though this about, the industry would begin to collapse, and huge changes would be made by companies for the consumers benefit and satisfaction.

For example; Ubisoft. I will not buy another Farcry. I will, however, buy another Assassins Creed because it is a very unique and amazing series that they have done a good job with. EA I'm done with. The last straw was when they took my Battlefield and made it Battlefare: Modern Warfield. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not slandering Modern Warfare. I just want the two games to remain very different. MW is the more fast paced run and gun, have fun kill streak kind of game. Battlefield used to be the slow, tactical team based patience game. Both are fantastic games, but both used to be so unique. I wish COD would go back towards it's roots, along with BF. However, EA pushed DICE to make BF more 'mainstream' and therefor, in my opinion, ruined the series by making it just like MW and no longer unique. Other than vehicles and giant maps, MW has more guns and gun options along with perks and stuff, so I would rather play that.

If you hate companies, don't buy their games and eventually they will start hurting and will have to make changes.

However, Bethesda is still in the top tier of companies that do care about their communities. Just because they made a lot of changes in the newest iteration of their series (5 years since the last, mind you), and that they overlooked a completely irrelevant issue that has inadvertantly caused huge issues for some mods, that doesn't mean they are sniviling moneymonglers like the rest.

I ask that people contain their ill-thought-out bashing of Bethesda because really, that get's us nowhere. If you don't like their games, try to talk to them and see if you can make a difference. If they ignore you and/or you cant, dont buy their stuff until they change. It's as simple as that.

I thought I would let those of you who care know that making my mod an esm (Changing extension, then saving in CK to set flag) fixed the issue. Thanks thekarathian for the suggestion!!!! Only the Nine know how long that would have taken for me to figure out on my own! My project may progress again!

You're wrong. If all they cared about was corporate greed and being money grubbers, there'd be no CK to even make mods with, let alone TWO forums dedicated to the purpose, a wiki filled with good info and tutorials, and a whole partnership with Valve entirely devoted to the issue that can't possibly be making them any money.

Yeah, whether it is progression or regression is subjective. I can see many improvements over Oblivion, but I also see many things that appear to be changing the core concept of the Elder Scrolls series. It seems to have been bit by the "Dragon Age bug"... which transforms a Classical RPG into an Action RPG. There's nothing wrong with Action RPG's, but they are different breed altogether.



Believe me, it takes me SERIOUSLY wanting a game for me to by a Ubisoft title... and EA also. I will not buy another Brother's In Arms title until it gets back to its roots. As far as I'm concerned, Ubisoft is the destroyer of developers... just as Microsoft made free DLC an extreme rarity with it's Marketplace. Sadly, Bethesda is right there on the edge of my black list. I certainly won't buy another game until it has had a while to be objectively and thoroughly tested and reviewed. I'm giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt... and maybe they've learned their lesson about mucking around with genres in mid-series. I hope that Mass Effect 3 will be as solid as the first two.



I know EXACTLY how you feel. If you ever played the original Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon, you know what I'm talking about. I play those series for the realism and strategy, I do NOT play them to get a Halo fix. But they did turn into Halo... just a poorly implemented version of it. Even Brothers in Arms turned into a Gears of War wannabe.



I don't think Bethesda is nearly as greedy as many of the others. They did jump on the bandwagon for a while with the Horse Armor DLC, Thieves Den (which was nothing like the Goonies), etc, though.

I'll tell you my main problem with Bethesda... and it's two-fold. The first and foremost is that I fear they don't hold as much respect for the people who made them so successful as they should be... the PC/RPG gamers. Of course, I don't know of many developers that do maintain such respect. I have absolutely no problem with getting in on the console market, but don't sell your soul to it. TES 7 or 8 may not even be released on PC for all we know... because it may not be profitable to do so.

My second issue with Bethesda is what seems to be outright deception in the pre-release hype department. I understand marketing. I understand hyping up your new product. I understand that staged demos are tightly scripted and controlled. However, praising how wonderful the Radiant AI of Oblivion while playing through a completely scripted demo (the bookstore owner who fried her poor dog) is no better than praising the graphics of a game while you're acting like you're playing through a photo-realistic pre-rendered cutscene. And I'm sure I don't even have to mention the "new engine" topic with Skyrim.

Please don't get me wrong. Most of the Bethesda employes are great guy, I'm sure. The moderators here seem nice, and Gstaff seems helpful. My issues are with those calling the shots... as it is with most things in life.



You know as well as I do that without a way to create new content, the PC market for TES games would suffer a fatal blow. And that's exactly what I fear may happen in the future as the console market grows larger and progresses in technology. Skyrim's design already showed us that the PC is just an afterthought. We get the port, not the consoles. If the Creation Kit hadn't already existed for the developers (or if it had been developed entirely on a console), the players would have never gotten such a tool.

Yes, I am grateful for the CK. The ability to modify has become a staple of Bethesda games. But it is not a staple that cannot be removed. That is what I worry about. I know that if it is ever removed, I leave with it as do many others. I just hope Bethesda realizes that... not that it would matter with the console market growing, however.


Ps. Oops, went semi-off-topic again

They seem to be investing an awful lot of time and attention into PC specific issues. PC specific optimizations, PC specific hi-res textures, PC specific CK. PC specific closed beta testing of an entirely FREE product. Continuing dedication to PC specific issues in further patches. Doesn't seem like an afterthought to me. An afterthought would be like with Oblivion. "Here's your CS, have fun, don't break anything. Oh, and enjoy your token DLCs." I've said it already, we're getting a much MUCH better run of support out of them this time around and I for one see nothing wrong with that.

What this looks like to me is a game that had a marketing date set that management refused to allow them to push back, which is now suffering from the pains of having to do so much post-marketing support. FAR more than they've done in past titles btw. Most other developers would have moved on 4 months later or would have foisted 5 DLCs onto their angry fans to soak up even more money. Nobody seems to have noticed that there's no mention at all of DLC we all know will eventually come. Has nobody considered that some of the bugs we've all found also impact them as well?

Months ago I would be inclined to agree here, but now I'm not.

If they cared, they would fix it. Res ipsa loquitor.

Anyway we are all on the gripe wagon and spending ten seconds bothering about Bethesda right now is time wasted, so we have to get this issue fixed for ourselves. Two choices at the moment:

1. Re-design world maps (possible for some, difficult for some, impossible for others)
2. Script tcl as Maegfaer suggests (not perfect but works)
3. Someone please start adding options from here......

Also we have only heard from Gstaff. Who knows perhaps one of the Skyrim programmers hasnt swallowed the corporate pill and has a moment of clarity where they say "stuff it I am going to look at this bug". Though I cant imagine that happening.

I am massively in favour of the script solution 2), if nothing else then simply because if this bug is eventually dealt with (either at Bethesda or Havok), then MERP will be there already in it's originally intended form/design.

Has anyone been in touch with anyone from the SKSE team about this bug?

@ http://www.gamesas.com/user/120595-mynex/. What do you mean by this: "On the plus side, TheHologram thinks he has a breakthrough... So perhaps his breakthrough might be/lead to a resolution to this problem." What sort of breakthrough? Is there a thread about this?

Wouldn't count on seeing that happen. If they've identified this as a fault in Havok, they'd get into trouble modifying code that doesn't belong to them.

Doesn't mean Bethesda can't send a request to Havok to fix their broken code....

At least for now we can only hope that beth and havok find a way to fix this soon or that some phantastic modder finds a way to fix it (with an skse-plugin or something like that)

And yes @ Mynex, what do you meant with "finding a breakthrough"?

I think we have had the definitive answer from Gstaff that Bethesda have no intention of fixing this, nor can I imagine the Havok crew appearing like the Deus ex machina and saying "here you go Skyrimites, a gift for yer."

So its going to be third party, or no invite to any party. Thats where our efforts need to focus I suppose. I am intrigued by Mynex comments and it would appear following the link that there is a havok genius at work who might be able to shine a light into this dark place.

*facepalm*

After all that they did for skyrim so far, they still get stepped on for not fixing this particular bug, and are deemed the evil corporation that is trying to hold people back.

To think I had spent so many years on the hate beth bandwagon, and not even bothering to place myself in their shoes.

egads, I'm glad I didn't pursue my dream of being a programmer, I'd have grey hair before 30.

I wouldn't completely give up on Havok fixing it, if asked to by Bethesda, especially if it is a minor oversight type of issue. This is not because I think Havok (or Bethesda) are a bunch of nice guys who would love to help out, but simply because if Gstaff is correct that this indeed is related to Havok, then effectively Havok have sold a partially defective (or certainly bug ridden) product, which will also (at least theoretically) limit Bethesda in any future development projects it may have.
It's just normal business practice to correct these sorts of errors along the way. It is litterally in everyone's interest, be it financial, reputational or otherwise.

For this reason alone, I think it would be wisest to press ahead with the now Skyrim based projects like MERP and Mesogea - especially if modders themselves are in the process of finding and implementing work-arounds.

Such a shame. There go my hopes of Skyrim being a game I play for years to come. Back to Morrowind and Oblivion I guess.

I wouldn't be surprised if an individual modder gets this working within the next couple of years when a team of "professionals" can not, but by that point it will be far too late for an open-world Tamriel collaboration. Fingers crossed Bethesda learn from this mistake for TES:VI.

How narrow-minded. Why don't you look at the big picture? Despite this misfortune, there will still be thousands of mods rolling in on both Skyrim Workshop and Skyrim Nexus. This bug will only impede modders who are thinking about making huge new worldspaces and lands. If you're not planning on making/playing any big world mods, then you really have nothing to complain about. You act as though big world mods are the only things modders will ever create. A big world mod isn't the only thing that will make the game continue to be enjoyable.

Take Arthmoor, for example. Creator of Open Cities, though I don't use it myself. Does he need to create gigantic worldspaces to do what he does? Ah, let me think: NO. And it's still a great mod.

Perhaps I shall give you an example of Quarn & Kivan's great work as well, eh? Fixing countless bugs and floating rocks to make the game more playable, and do they need a new worldspace? The answer is no.

This is your personal view. Don't pretend to know what other people should want or why. Just accept that other people have different priorities/agendas than you, and try to contribute in a positive way if you can. Otherwise please don't bother ranting pointlessly in a thread like this. Nobody wants to hear it anyway.

You act like I'm trying to censor personal opinion. I was simply stating that everyone seems to be railing against and bashing Bethesda just because they could not fix one bug. In my opinion, most people are acting like this: "You're going to fix it? Yay! Hooray!" But when it's learned that one bug can't be fixed, then it's like: "You can't fix it? YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR USERS OR YOUR CK!!!!!" Yeah. Despite the fact that they are taking their time to work on a fix for two other critical bugs that will render most mods broken anyway.

And besides, in my opinion, the NavMesh bug was far more serious than this one. THAT is the one they should be devoting their attention to, because it renders mods with new interiors and landscapes completely broken. If this wasn't fixed, then the big world mods wouldn't happen anyway.

EDIT: Also, I love the way you slandered Alexander J. Velicky's opinion a few pages back. You said "Don't be so arrogant as to think that your view is the only one with merit". You're the arrogant one, because you can't seem to tolerate what other people think.

Theres a lot of this about. I can get by with own opinions, but opinions of opinions are a bit pointless. As if we're going to say, "Yes I am completely wrong, thanks for straightening that out"

Anyway going way off the point of the thread here. After chatting with Maegfaer we will open up another thread purely dedicated to breaking through this bug. The discussion of whether it should be fixed by Bethesda or not is entirely right to have I think and I'll happily partake, but the two issues should be kept seperate dont you think? one for fixing it, another for showing our disaproval of the whole thing so far.

I couldn't agree more. And yes, perhaps a thread for constructive thinking and real attempts at solutions is called for.
I for one am very interested to see how far Maegfaer can take his scripting work vis a vis addressing this bug. Fingers crossed.

I just can't find a logical reason why the PC gaming market is in decline? How can six year old consoles threaten something that can be upgraded at all times relatively cheaply, the games themselves cost much less, more powerful, better quality graphics and processing power, all the modding perks, user friendly (these days), and even convenient gaming laptops are now available where you can play just about anywhere, although they're more expensive I give that? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I guess one reason might be down to marketing? Console games are portrayed as cool and trendy, whereas the PC is virtually ignored.

I did a several month study of 3d worlds and games as part of my degree (and if I dont stop posting here I'll never finish it) and the consensus seemed to be that most games are played by males in their early twenties, tailing off as it rises into the thirties, forties etc. The emphasis being on games that are quick and dirty, load em up, run them and pull the plug when youre done. PC's take a bit more thought and effort for higher rewards in graphics, gameplay, mods etc. The games that provided player interactivity, as in ability to re-design, add to and so forth take a great deal more effort and cost to produce, so the risk is greater. There is also a pendulum swing for most things of fashion, at the moment the pendulum is swinging towards the "all in on the console bandwagon" and as more and more games companies do this mods and mod interest will fade, but there will reach a point where the profit is in standing out from the crowd, so a company will come along and put effort into interactive content, the gaming crowd will see something unique and clamour for it. The pendulum swings until it reaches the point where there are too many games with mod facility and the sales v effort effect kicks in again as the same number of players spread wide across the numerous mod platforms. Then someone will concentrate on quick and easy and fashion repeats itself.

Same with jeans, funnily enough. A swing from skinny to baggy, and back again. Some call it innovation, others call it getting bored with the same old same old and looking for something different.