Gamebreaking bug for worldspaces bigger than 4 quads in widt : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:23 am

I go with the theory that it's a combination of Havok Behavior and Havok Physics, someone posted that earlier in this thread. It seems fairly obvious to me that Actors do have certain Behavior features that the player character lacks.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:15 am

Perhaps thats where the issue sits. Why not the player? It would help if we had some input from Bethesda. Ok, they have said they wont fix it, but surely they cant be averse to just making some comment about where we can go from here. Come on Bethesda, play the game (we play yours :wink:

)

Dunno, by the second quote saying something along the lines of... 'as we've said before...' suggests they're getting impatient and agitated by us complaining already?

Sorry... 'as noted previousy' were the exact terms, almost frustrated with us for not just accepting the vague outcome the first time?

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:32 am

I don't know if I've posted here yet: Can someone PLEASE try generating an area of more than about 750 cells using the region generator? I think it may be broken in which case ALL new world projects (Bigger than a couple cells) are screwed since I don't think anyone wants to do that much by hand!

I'm hitting some kind of a region limit because when I generate more than 730 cells total it crashes when I try to load a save with the mod active in the load order...

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Dunno, by the second quote saying something along the lines of... 'as we've said before...' suggests they're getting impatient and agitated by us complaining already?

Sorry... 'as noted previousy' were the exact terms, almost frustrated with us for not just accepting the outcome?

Impatient? They can poke that if they are. Oh Im all cut up inside. I might cry

I bet they are getting annoyed though, Not half as annoyed as they could be if we really tried. Anyway, there may be other issues as AJV just highlighted. That may be an esp limit though, try converting to an esm and trying again. I could only run so much region editing in Oblivion before having a crash. I had to regularly merge to master.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:23 am

Impatient? They can poke that if they are. Oh Im all cut up inside. I might cry :wink:

I bet they are getting annoyed though, Not half as annoyed as they could be if we really tried. Anyway, there may be other issues as AJV just highlighted. That may be an esp limit though, try converting to an esm and trying again. I could only run so much region editing in Oblivion before having a crash. I had to regularly merge to master.

Oh by the Nine, seriously? Just to clarify you're suggesting; Generate the region, save, then convert it to an esm and try playing it without the crashing?

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:52 pm

I don't know if I've posted here yet: Can someone PLEASE try generating an area of more than about 750 cells using the region generator? I think it may be broken in which case ALL new world projects (Bigger than a couple cells) are screwed since I don't think anyone wants to do that much by hand!

I'm hitting some kind of a region limit because when I generate more than 730 cells total it crashes when I try to load a save with the mod active in the load order...

We've generated these areas for MERP without problems: http://i.imgur.com/L37gu.png I don't know the setup of your region, but you can't load an esp as active if it is bigger than 100mb. Propably you already reach this limit if you're generating in the same file where your heightmap is saved?

Edit: at least this is the limit that I've experienced in Oblivion

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:49 am

We've generated these areas for MERP without problems: http://i.imgur.com/L37gu.png I don't know the setup of your region, but you can't load an esp as active if it is bigger than 100mb. Propably you already reach this limit if you're generating in the same file where your heightmap is saved?

Edit: at least this is the limit that I've experienced in Oblivion

No my esp even after generation is only about 8mb. My land is miniscule in comparison to MERP, it fits easily within 2 just quads.

EDIT: Nevermind the second half I didn't see the light blue at first.

So then what the heck is making this crash on save load?!

Is there a tool like FNVEdit that I could use to clean my esp up? I hope to god it's not some kind of corruption....

Double EDIT: I'm also trying to generate a random block of about 1000 cells. I made a new esp with nothing but a worldspace. Panned the camera around a bunch to create a large area of cells, drew up a quick region, threw some objects in the list and hit generate. It's been going for almost an hour now, though, but when it's done I'll see if I can load into that...

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:57 pm

No my esp even after generation is only about 8mb. My land is miniscule in comparison to MERP, it fits easily within 2 just quads.

That selected green region doesn't look quite big enough to hit the possible 731 cell limit. I would estimate it at about ~500-600. Of course, that is assuming that it goes out of the picture at the top and quickly comes to an end, and that that's the only region you've done generation for.

There is a light blue region too and we've generated both

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:29 am

Ok, quick and dirty test. I put a horse, a wolf and a dog at -74,6.

I stood and watched them lollop up and down through the ground in the weird way we have come to know and hate. I then selected each and turned off collision via tcl. They stay on the ground but unfortunately when dead they stay standing up, nor do they fight each other when in tcl, for some odd reason. I kicked seven shades out of the dog and it stood there, like night of the living dead.

Then I tcl';d the horse. I rode it around for a while and all goes well. Try to jump though and you go like Orpheus into hades, straight through the ground. Coming back to earth we rode around a bit. Then I got off and lumped it with my axe. A couple of thumps and it stood there like dobbin the suicide pony and took everything without fightin back. After I killed it, it rolled down the hill as if oblivious to tcl. I cant work out any sense in it.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:36 am

There is a light blue region too and we've generated both :wink:

See my edit above, I didn't notice the blue at first.

Do you know of anything that would cause issues within the regions? Maybe I'm putting a certain object into the list that causes problems or something.....

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:14 am

Isnt Skyrim a bit limited so far as trees, rocks and the like are concerned. Ive visited the nexus several times but no new trees in the planning etc. That does kind of put me off. Cant have a world full of pines now can we.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 am

Isnt Skyrim a bit limited so far as trees, rocks and the like are concerned. Ive visited the nexus several times but no new trees in the planning etc. That does kind of put me off. Cant have a world full of pines now can we.

Due to the inherant climate, yes. The only tree's I've found so far are Pine and Aspen. That's it. New ones will certainly have to be added for things like MERP.

@ noirdesir - Come to think of it, I've even tried old versions of my mod, and different regions with completely different objects and they all crash, provided the generated area is oh so large... It's like the CK gave up on generating more than 175 cells at once properly...

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:52 am

I only had problems with the filesize, but I'll come back to you if I have another idea. The objects shouldn't be any problem. If you can put it into the list then its fine. Propably your problem is unrelated to the regions?

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:32 am

That happened in Oblivion too. You have to convert your file to an esm, then exit and load again. Then add more stuff with an esp to near the limit, then merge to esp, wash and repeat.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 am

I only had problems with the filesize, but I'll come back to you if I have another idea. The objects shouldn't be any problem. If you can put it into the list then its fine. Propably your problem is unrelated to the regions?

But the crash on save-load occurs ONLY whence I have added an additional region larger than 175 cells, and ONLY when I have done that. Otherwise, if I add no region or any region smaller it works just fine and dandy...

That happened in Oblivion too. You have to convert your file to an esm, then exit and load again. Then add more stuff with an esp to near the limit, then merge to esp, wash and repeat.

But it cant be a limitation here because noir isn't experiencing the same issue. It has to be something that I messed up, or corruption; in which case I get to start my month of work (100+ hours of work) over again... yaaaaaaay.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:04 am

It is down to RAM. I ran Oblivion on two systems. xp 32 bit, 4gb memory. I could produce regions of a fair size and it would crash, so I learned to make smaller portions of each region and merge and repleat. Then I upgraded my rig to vista 64 and 8gb ram. Strangely enough I could generate bigger regions before crashing.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:28 pm

I go with the theory that it's a combination of Havok Behavior and Havok Physics, someone posted that earlier in this thread. It seems fairly obvious to me that Actors do have certain Behavior features that the player character lacks.

Since the issue is being defined by Gstaff as a being 'havok related' and the problem only affects NPC's...

With the issues of adding completely new custom animations (not simply replacers)... Could the problem perhaps be in the hkx files somewhere themselves that 'interact incorrectly' with the ground collision?

Just a random thought as I was reading through this thread after just reading the havoc convertor thread.

Unless I'm misunderstanding (most likely :tongue:

) was this where you referring to my post (above)? If so, here's the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1336657-rel-havok-animation-converter-thread-2/ on it...

On the plus side, TheHologram thinks he has a breakthrough... So perhaps his breakthrough might be/lead to a resolution to this problem.

As another thought... if the problem can be identified (either exactly or as 'close to exactly' as possible to lead programmers to), perhaps it might be something the SKSE team could do something about? I have no idea as I'm most definitely NOT a havoc type person... I just slept at a holiday in express last night! :biggrin:

(no not really - I just devour the forums all over the place :biggrin:

)

Non-useful Rant - read or not (probably not :tongue:

)

Spoiler

As to Beth refusing fix this problem and shove it off as being a havoc issue... It wouldn't pass the filters here what my thoughts are on it. I will say this however; Beth, you aren't getting any money from me in any capacity again unless you get your >self censored< together and learn to properly QA your stuff... The purchaser of your product should NOT have to rely on 'unofficial patches' that fix 100's (or thousands) of bugs in the game, some as directly obvious as quests... and while you don't have to release any type of mod tool to the community, the fact that you do we appreciate, but I believe it is a flat out impossible that you all used the CK to make skyrim... look at the bug list for the CK and then try telling that to us again.

Sorry to harsh on Beth in this thread, I'm more than a little ticked, but I'm not sorry to harsh on Beth... Tossing the vast majority your problems onto the mod community is rubbish. At least have the courtesy to say thank you to the modders who fix your broken software currently and in the past. Why? Because without them you wouldn't have had the longevity of previous titles as you have. Show some class rather than corporate greed... you did just make 600+ million dollars,the least you could do is say 'Thanks, nice job!" or somesuch... and no, this is not directed at the actual developers who have been all over these threads trying to help us... it's at the 'suits' at the top that this is directed at.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:02 am

It is down to RAM. I ran Oblivion on two systems. xp 32 bit, 4gb memory. I could produce regions of a fair size and it would crash, so I learned to make smaller portions of each region and merge and repleat. Then I upgraded my rig to vista 64 and 8gb ram. Strangely enough I could generate bigger regions before crashing.

But I'm not crashing in the CK. I crash when I choose a save to load from the mainmenu, ingame.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:36 am

Again I had plugin issues above a certain size of plugin. Try converting.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:24 am

Again I had plugin issues above a certain size of plugin. Try converting.

How should I convert? Currently what I do is use FNVEdit, is this a good (enough) way to do so?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Thereine lies the rub. You can do it with Gecko, convert to master or master to esp, but not merge to. Not yet anyway, unless anyone knows another way?

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:58 am

Thereine lies the rub. You can do it with Gecko, convert to master or master to esp, but not merge to. Not yet anyway, unless anyone knows another way?

Hrrm. Alright I'll give this a go.

Noir - is your project an esm when you test it ingame?

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:12 am

Noir - is your project an esm when you test it ingame?

The heightmap is an esm, but the regions are saved in an esp file.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:22 am

The heightmap is an esm, but the regions are saved in an esp file.

Ah, okay. And are any of the esp's bigger than 7.5mb? (+/- 500kb) If this is size related, that's the cutoff for me when my esp starts crashing on load.

» Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:00 am

There is exactly no way this is a technical limitation - it's a coding error. If it was a technical limitation it would be symmetrical - we'd accept it and that would be that. A shame; shortsighted; a pity. But credible. However, for the two axes to be treated differently for technical reasons is simply not plausible. Someone, somewhere, stuffed up.

To claim otherwise is disingenuous.