Gamebreaking bug for worldspaces bigger than 4 quads in widt

Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:51 am

+1 this thread, I really want to see the huge mods released, I'm already getting bored of Skyrim itself, one of the main reasons I bought Skyrim was because of all the awesome Oblivion mods and the assumption that even better and bigger ones would be made for Skyrim.

Please fix this Beth.
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Dustin Brown
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:12 am

The good thing is that a lot of people asked the same question in the thread above, but we don't know if the question is really answered. So if you also have in interrest about an answer about this bug, please http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1351643-taking-your-skyrim-workshopcreation-kit-questions-for-the-bethesda-podcast/page__st__30__p__20369031#entry20369031.
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LuCY sCoTT
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:06 am

Good to see a lot of people asking about the issue on the BethBlog article about the Q and A too. I don't see how the topic can be evaded now.
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Nicholas C
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 am

Fingers crossed that they also have the will to do something about it. Two bugs that have so far made Skyrim so much less than it could be. Navmesh and heightmap 64x64 bugs.
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Crystal Birch
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:36 am

Fingers crossed that they also have the will to do something about it. Two bugs that have so far made Skyrim so much less than it could be. Navmesh and heightmap 64x64 bugs.

We're looking at the Navmesh stuff for an update, but the ground collision issue you're running into is Havok related.
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Steeeph
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:54 am

Gstaff, many thanks for the reply. Its appreciated. Please tell me though that there is something that can be done about it. Even if Bethesda tell us its a particular problem with the nif properties of NPC's so that a third party fix is possible.
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Vickytoria Vasquez
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:44 am

We're looking at the Navmesh stuff for an update, but the ground collision issue you're running into is Havok related.

Comment was at the end of page 1 so I should have quoted.
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Dan Endacott
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:57 am

So if it's a Havok issue, the real question is; Did it exist in previous games? I though Oblivion had these huge projects in them as well? Did they not encounter this issue?
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Mrs Pooh
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:27 am

No. 100 percent not present in Oblivion. I had the same sized world, rode east to west over a vast area, way beyond the 64 cell Skyrim issue point and both NPC creatures, ridden horses and people worked fine.

Odd that the havok issue kicks on on the 64 cell point. That cant be in each nif file, so must be game coded.
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Peter lopez
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:07 pm

We're looking at the Navmesh stuff for an update, but the ground collision issue you're running into is Havok related.

Uh, is that a reason/excuse for no fix ever?

I can see how it's Havok related, but I doubt that Havok is at fault here. It doesn't happen to the player character, nor to non-actor objects that are affected by Havok. So obviously it's something about NPC's that causes Havok to bug.

Hence, fix that issue on the side of the NPC's and Havok will work as intended.

The "but" seems like you're saying "sorry guys, but there's nothing we can do". I simply don't believe that, see above.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Uh, is that a reason/excuse for no fix ever?

I can see how it's Havok related, but I doubt that Havok is at fault here. It doesn't happen to the player character, nor to non-actor objects that are affected by Havok. So obviously it's something about NPC's that causes Havok to bug.

Hence, fix that issue on the side of the NPC's and Havok will work as intended.

The "but" seems like you're saying "sorry guys, but there's nothing we can do". I simply don't believe that, see above.


Yeah, it seems very odd that this should be a Havok only issue, when it only happens to NPCs. Surely the physics rules in Havok apply equally to all entities in a game, regardless of whether we chose to call them "player" or "NPC" or "rock".

Could Gstaff tell us precisely why he thinks this relates to Havok, and why it doesn't affect the NPCs?
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Thema
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:43 am

It does relate to Havok, that is obvious. But it's something specific about the NPC's that causes Havok to bug. I'd like some elaboration what the "but" means. If you're trying to say Bethesda can't fix it, I have this to say:

Blaming Havok and using that as an excuse to not fix the issue, is like saying lamp X (NPC's) doesn't shine because the electricity is down (Havok), while lamp Y (Player character) which is connected to the same electricity network is properly shining light. It doesn't hold.


A more logical explanation is that either lamp X is broken or something is wrong with the wiring to that lamp. In that case it is electricity-related (Havok-related), but the electricity itself is not what needs fixing. It's the wiring to lamp X or lamp X itself, and Bethesda DOES control that.
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Cameron Wood
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:08 am

I am hoping that he means "but" as in "we need to look at how havok is controlled and affected beyond the 4 quad limit." If there is no fix for this then its got to be back to Oblivion for the major landmass mods which would be a shame. Rome didnt beat Carthage by strength, but by persistence. Bethesda can fix this bug, I just hope they have the will.
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Jason White
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:50 am

If this isn't fixed, it will be a hugely disappointing blow for the Skyrim world modding community.
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Dorian Cozens
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:45 am

At first thank you Gstaff for an reply that we were really looking forward to.

I don't think that Gstaff did mean that this bug is not fixable or that nobody is working on this bug, instead that the bug is not related to the Creation Kit but a bug of Skyrim itself.
The navmesh-bug is a bug by the creation kit.

At least i hope that was meant. A further explanation would be very helpful.

But even if it is an havok-related issue, it should be fixed; because why is only the x-axis affected and not the y-axis; so i don't think that it is unfixable. And the player-character isn't affected. So i hope it's being looked into after all. And it kills a lot of projects.
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Eibe Novy
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:34 am

Hm yeah. Although looking at Havok's site they do different stuff for physics, animation and behaviour, amongst other things. The three things I previously mentioned are what bethesda are using with Skyrim. They also quote on Havok's site - http://www.havok.com/client-projects/games/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim

“We looked at a bunch of [animation solutions], and this is about the tippy-top state-of-the-art stuff out there,” explains Bethesda Studios creative director Todd Howard. “I think we're the first real big game to use it.”
http://www.havok.com/products/behavior is a flexible animation tool that allows the developers to rapidly prototype and preview new animations and blend them together seamlessly with a few mouse clicks and minimal code support. Bethesda is using it to create more nuance in character and creature movement, govern special effects, and even to control how characters struggle to move when trapped in environmental hazards like spider webs. Characters now transition more realistically between walking, jogging, and running, and the increased nuance between animations has allowed Bethesda to better balance the combat in both first- and third-person perspective by adjusting the timing values for swings and blocks depending on your perspective. “We definitely have made a significant jump in how it plays [in third person perspective],” Howard proclaims.

Now the following is entirely speculation but certainly food for thought;

The problem here is that if they're really the first big game to use it then it's clearly not the same implementation of Havok as Oblivion used. If the meshes for other inanimate physics objects have no issues, all it's confirming is that the physics aren't to blame. However it could be one of the other two engines mentioned there, which I'd assume would only apply to NPCs. I would guess at the behaviour as opposed to animation - it may explain why the player remains unnaffected as I'm guessing the player character doesn't require behaviour.

Would there be a way to confirm this? Maybe create some kind of animated walking creature in the CK and remove it's behaviour without removing the animations or physics? I'm afraid I have no idea if this is possible in the CK or not but if so then it could confirm that havok's behaviour engine is the problem. Not that it makes things any better, I know, but it could go some way to diagnosing the issue.

Of course it could be a Havok bug or just as likely Bethesda's implementation of Havok, once again only Bethesda can confirm or deny this or whether it's possible to fix with a game update.
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David Chambers
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 am

The problem with the theory that it is purely Havok and its new systems is that npcs aren't constantly effected. They are fine so long as they are at least 1 cell's distance from the player character. This would indicate that there are other factors in play, factors related to Skyrim and not Havok. Speaking of which, this should be added to the bug's description. It could be of great importance to note this particular fact.
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Kay O'Hara
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 am

The problem with the theory that it is purely Havok and its new systems is that npcs aren't constantly effected. They are fine so long as they are at least 1 cell's distance from the player character. This would indicate that there are other factors in play, factors related to Skyrim and not Havok. Speaking of which, this should be added to the bug's description. It could be of great importance to note this particular fact.

That only happened in one session, I couldn't reproduce that later, hence it is removed from the bug description.
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Lalla Vu
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:08 pm

We're looking at the Navmesh stuff for an update, but the ground collision issue you're running into is Havok related.
Like the rest of us, I'm hoping this brief comment means "The ground collision issue is not part of the same update we're working on for Navmesh so will be addressed as a separate piece of work" - that would be quite reasonable and we don't expect the anolysis of the issue has been completed this quickly.

Now that the x-64 collision bug is clearly on the devs radar we look forward to hearing the results of that anolysis.
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OJY
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:30 am

Like the rest of us, I'm hoping this brief comment means "The ground collision issue is not part of the same update we're working on for Navmesh so will be addressed as a separate piece of work" - that would be quite reasonable and we don't expect the anolysis of the issue has been completed this quickly.

Now that the x-64 collision bug is clearly on the devs radar we look forward to hearing the results of that anolysis.

I so hope you're right. I fear that an over-busy dev team could fall for the temptation for the quick way out and just say "Oh, this appears to be caused by Havok, we probably can't fix this or it would take way too long. Let's proceed with the rest of the bug list".
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Danel
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Well, depending on what they have planned for dlc, they may have no choice but to fix it. If they add on to the continent too far east or west, like if they added part of Hammerfell, or Morrowind, they would hit the bug themselves. I actually hope they have this planned as not only would that be cool, but it would force their hand in terms of some of these bugs, particularly this one.
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Skivs
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:00 am

Well, depending on what they have planned for dlc, they may have no choice but to fix it. If they add on to the continent too far east or west, like if they added part of Hammerfell, or Morrowind, they would hit the bug themselves. I actually hope they have this planned as not only would that be cool, but it would force their hand in terms of some of these bugs, particularly this one.

I think, if they do large landmasses, they'd do it as separate worldspaces, sidestepping the issue. They wouldn't sidestep it because of the issue but for the same reason they put cities separate from the main world.
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Tamika Jett
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:02 am

I think, if they do large landmasses, they'd do it as separate worldspaces, sidestepping the issue. They wouldn't sidestep it because of the issue but for the same reason they put cities separate from the main world.

I was about to say the exact same thing, I'm currently messing on with a worldspace for a 4th era Vvardenfel/Solstheim (yeah, well original I know) and my first reaction to this bug was to house them in a seperate worldspace. You're forgetting older official expansions like Tribunal were created entirely using interior cells, and the fact there's http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/216324-explore-morrowind-and-cyrodiil-in-skyrim/morrowind%20gate-620x.jpg right where one would enter into the lands of Morrowind in the current map seems to support that any potential world expansion would exist in a seperate area. Not to mention the fact that DLC would likely have to update the main .esm in order to achieve genuinely extended regions.

Playing devil's advocate, from a gamer's perspective a loading screen between two gigantic exteriors isn't exactly the worst thing to happen to them. Anyone can see that many people on here are a bit more ambitious and want a huge worldspace, but personally I'm torn between the concepts of a fix and a workaround. The original game clearly allows LOD to function outside of the game's playable boundaries, as seen from the rather rudimentary view of Red Mountain while standing by Stendarr's Beacon. Rather than wait for a solution to something that likely will take an age for the devs to fix, I do wonder whether it would be more productive to create large worldspaces within several smaller worldspaces with clear boundaries; then load between them while keeping the LOD itself on a larger scale. This would mean you can still see miles into the distance and get the same sense of scale, but whether characters bob up and down while several miles away becomes an irrellevance.
We've seen this on a smaller scale while in the towns already and this appears to be the tactic that Bethesda use - Ever tried to jump out of Whiterun? Of course you have - we all have - and despite screaming "OH DEAR GOD IT'S NEW VEGAS ALL OVER AGAIN! SCREW YOU INVISIBLE WALLS!!1" you have to admit - waist-heigh outer walls aside - it's an effective design tactic and could be effectively implemented.

I know this will annoy some people and I hate a major bug as much as the next guy, but as a realist I have to think - how much effort is it going to take to populate, design and script an immersive worldspace even a fraction of the size of Skyrim or Morrowind? I mean taking Middle Earth as an example, how many impassable barriers are there between the heroes in any of Tolkien's main novels and their ultimate goal? I couldn't imagine Mirkwood as even being an exterior in many ways; the place struck me as a child as being a frightening, claustrophobic place with no easy way out. The Misty Mountains in Lord Of The Rings were as impassable as the entrance to the peak of High Hrothgar is initially in Skyrim; albeit on a far greater scale. These are the kind of images that brought me into RPGs in the first place! It just seems a bit silly to worry about whether you can walk on the exact mountain you can see 8 miles away when we could be concentrating on what is right in front of us. OK maybe it means a compromise, maybe it means creating maps that don't 100% match the extensive lore than at least another dozen people than you have read in it's entirety. The fundamental question is "does it compromise the game?"

In a more brief format - create worldspaces on a grand scale, add the LOD, copy the playable areas into several smaller worldspaces centered on 0, 0, and create clear boundaries between them. Far from ideal, but it makes your mod playable and allows you to concentrate on more important issues like plot and gameplay without significantly compromising or waiting for an update that based on my experience of games programmers may never come.

Now I've finished my brief dissertaion haha, I just remembered -

The problem with the theory that it is purely Havok and its new systems is that npcs aren't constantly effected. They are fine so long as they are at least 1 cell's distance from the player character. This would indicate that there are other factors in play, factors related to Skyrim and not Havok. Speaking of which, this should be added to the bug's description. It could be of great importance to note this particular fact.

You're right, that is of importance. But I would be tempted to ask whether this simply means that Havok's behaviour engine becomes inactive once more than 1 cell distant to the player. Yeah it would indeed be a Skyrim-based issue, but if the solution was turning on Havok constantly for an entire worldspace then surely that would affect performance. Admittedly since it works for the Y axis there must be a solution but once again whether this is a limitation of Havok or Skyrim itself is something only the devs can give a quick answer to without an answer from the devs themselves. EDIT - that last sentence makes no grammatical sense, I blame Jagermeister.
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:55 pm

Having a large landmass broken into smaller working sections doesnt actually work. You cant have transit bottlenecks that then carry you through to another section of the world centred on a 4 quad grid. For a 16x16 world or even a 12x12 world you would need to make several chunks of landmass that extend in LOD well beyond the 2x2 quad square, so you need to create more like a 4x4 square with 2x2 in the centre as a working part of the world and a whole quad or more beyond to provide anything like realistic distant terrain. That requires making several heightmaps with transit between them. Also it needs a re-design of worlds. With MERP and Mesogea these are worlds already extensively developed. Ok I could massively change things in Mesogea but for MERP its simply not realistically feasible. It was considered in the early days of Oblivion, but the idea was binned. MERP only took off when the full 16x16 grid became available.

I suppose in some ways we are at an advantage in that we have all invested a lot of time and effort into Oblivion. We dont really need Skyrim to continue these projects and with Skyrim removed as inoperable, that would clarify things and take MERP and Mesogea forward much quicker. It wouldnt take me half the effort just to go back to Oblivion and get on with things from where I left off. The MERP team and players will follow the best route, and if that route is in Oblivion then so be it. Its not as if we are Skyrim or bust.

I think that if the devs decide to not bother then it possibly wouldnt affect them too much with Skyrim. They would likely notice a much faster tail off of interest. Morrowind and Oblivion have lived on because they are infinitely moddable. To leave a clear and absolute barrier in Skyrim would not doom it, Skyrim is bigger than any mod or mods, but it would reduce its playability over a period of time and ultimately result in lower revenue and as the series continues, so the revenue will reduce. There are a lot of RPG's out there. Here today, gone tomorrow. What happens over the next few months or couple of years will have an impact on the future.

I hope Bethesda take the effort to fix things. Skyrim comes in two boxes. The game (buy it, it stays the same) A modding platform (endlessly changeable and having a chameleon like way of drawing in new purchasers are the game is modded to taste)

I have replicated this bug several times now and it doesnt seem to have a limit. Its 64 and above ad infinitum. As said before there doesnt seem to be a Y axis problem, so that I can discover. Its hard to tell what cell I am in though as I cant teleport with a horse. I have scattered creatures across the land and it happens regularly as Maegfaers map shows.

Hopefully the devs will be able to say at an early date "We can fix it" or "We cant fix it" either way we can then move on.
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Farrah Lee
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:23 am

We're looking at the Navmesh stuff for an update, but the ground collision issue you're running into is Havok related.

Which means exactly what? Based on the "but", it sounds like you're saying "not interested".
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Cody Banks
 
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