I think snakeyez was just asking for a link ...

I don't see why it's laughable but that's entirely your perception. And you yourself admit Bethesda has sold out on one aspect of game-play, yet that's still selling out is it not? Just because it's minimal doesn't mean it isn't. And it intrigues me that you'll stoop so low as to use a laughable term yourself, and I quote: "The only thing that Beth has sold us out on is lack of Depth in a lot of characters due to voice acting..."
And you are mistaken in assuming that selling out equates to making a crap game. A franchise can sell out (go mainstream through compromising its original goals and morals) yet still make a good, great, amazing game! Good is relative

I agree that Skyrim isn't as deep in some aspects as the previous games due to voice acting, that one concept has done so much damage to the series. Fallout 2 was able to succeed and Morrowind as well with a system of important NPC's voiced and everything else texted based. Oblivion well level scaling hurt that game but Oblivion is still a good game. Skyrim is hurt by the low guild lengths but the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild are still good, shorter (Not by much) but still better. At least your not Robin Hood anymore for the Thieves Guild. I still believe that the changes made to Skyrim are better for the series although Voice Acting will always hurt an RPG due to the lost options that you have with VA's. You can only do so much with VA's talking, Ysolda could've been a much deeper character if she didn't have a voice. More options could've been added like helping her take the bar over, doing another mission for her, etc. I could add another dozen NPC's if not more to that list of what they could do if they didn't have a voice.

Yes they have.

TES 1-3 was for the rpg audience.

TES 4-5 is for the casual audience.

I agree with the issues of VA. The thing is, if they didn't VA we would be here talking about how they should do more VA and get with the times.

I also agrre with the length of guild quests. I really feel there are a lot of missed potential in the new radiant system.

That's apples and oranges though..isn't it? For this argument to be valid, switching release dates would also encompass switching the available technology.
Skyrim would've been limited by Morrowind's technology and Morrowind would've gained the advantages of the technology available to Skyrim.

Things is, and I could be wrong, but I honestly believe it's a fallacy to think that if Morrowind came out today it would have it's depth and Skyrim's polish. Skyrim would've been the game that invested heavily in great writing to make up for it's technical impotence. All of us current Morrowind freaks would be going on and on about how great Skyrim was and how shallow this new Morrowind is.

The crux of the biscuit is that many of us really did expect a game with Morrowind's depth and Skyrim's polish. Sadly, because of technology and mass appeal demands, that simply isn't going to happen. As Lachdonin said, that's having your cake and eating it too, and there simply aren't enough of us to make that viable.

In short, a man's gotta eat. Bethesda is no different. It isn't selling out. It's giving (most) people what they want. Which is a good business strategy if you don't want to starve.

I think they are dumbing down the games. Not that other goames aren't. It's the industry in general. In modern games, you really never have to stop and figure things out.

* In some 8-bit RPGs, you'd have to plan your magic use due to a rather nice system. Using your high level spells on random monsters would mean that absent a means to recover your magic, you'd be unable to use those spells on the baddie at the end. (FF1 was a big one, each level of spell had a separate mana pool, and the largest spells had the least mana.)

* Puzzles were actually hard. I can remember trying for hours to figure out which order to drain and fill a series of pools in Zelda 3. Again Super Nintendo. Also, they had hard bosses, though once I figured out that you could do the DW out of order, they got easier.

* your choices had actual consequences. Morrowind is probably the big one here, but even in some jRPGs it somewhat matters how you play the game. If you kill everybody, even up to oblivion, people notice. Now you get to walk up to them after killing half the town and they tell you about the arrow to the knee. Even in the factions -- in OBlivion, if you stole from or killed a member of the faction, you got kicked out with a chance for redemption. in Skyrim, the don't care. If you kill 20 Stormcloaks on a Stormcloak mission, they do ... nothing. Not even make you bring back Mamoth meat or something. Heck even the race barely matters beyond a single throwaway line by ulfic. You can walk around in any town in skyrim, your khajiit brothers have to wait outside.

honestly, it's not that hard to make the case of dumbed down, but it's the industry in general. Play Wolfenstein and then play Halo. Play two games in any genre over 10 years apart, and the trend is obvious -- game makers think you're stupid.

That's kind of obvious.

I tend to agree that the example this refers to (I'm too lazy to quote it as well) is a terrible one... If Morrowind, as it is, came out now it would be an utter and total failure. Similarly, if Duke Nukem 3d came out today, it would be a failure. Hell, so would Zelda.

Just flipping dates around to 'put things in perspective' is pointless without considering the perspective of the games initial release.

I m lost. I ve played since Arena. What exactly was simplified. This is isn t Oblivion. They took away skills but added perks, and crafting, and dragons, and giants. It s the most polished of the serie

Now don t get me wrong, I do wish it was more extensive and had mork skills instead of no-skill cooking, and reducing axes to a few perk, and forcing the player to specialize and not access all perks.

I also measured the world, and it seems to be much larger than morrowind, not to mention scalable and respawnable, something morrowind lacked sorely

(with extensive lore reminiscent of LOTR is cool.)

I fail to see your point. TES look a lot more like a cross between *der ring del nibelung* the epic inspired by burgundian history, and greek mythology, with some injection of norse mythology.

Tolkien was pure overly simplified norse mythos without any of the sidhe and paralel worlds stuff.

(I am far from a lifelong TES fan, and I haven't played the first two games in the series. I stumbled upon Oblivion in mid 2008 and I scoured interstate for Morrowind, both of which I loved dearly.)

Wait so you mourn Oblivion out of all things, the worst of the serie, the one that dared axe skills and features without adding anything. The same one that promised hugue cities but delivered tiny FLAT hubs devoid of life. That axed flying withoiut really taking advantage of the axing (unlike Skyrim labyrinthian like mountainous mazes)

(The leveling system has been skimmed down, the variety of weaponry, skills, and the depth of magick customization have all been streamlined. I admit it's simplified and streamlining can be good, but at what expense?)

Actually there is more meat on the skills than in oblivion. I do wish that weponry had their own trees. Personaly I m more satisfied with the new spell system, thought magic versus swords need rebalancing. And we need more variety, and more perks per level to make jack of all trades, or at least flexibility, possible.

( I admit it's simplified and streamlining can be good, but at what expense?)

Again, saying that comparing it to oblivion makes no sense

the only things really axed this time were stats, but they were poorly harnessed in the past (had no impact whatsoever) or had ridiculous impact like running like a horse, jumping like a kangooroo and so on. I once jumped from seyda neen to balmora by setting strenght to 200 for fun.

( negative feeling I am harboring towards these recently emerging Skyrim fans)

what recently emerging fans .... I saw a lot of old timers arround and they seem quite happy

sure at 10 million sales there must be some new fans, but most likely old time diablo players trying skyrim

(This feeling may just be irrational but I'm just curious as to who else feels that way.)

You forgot to drink your coffee this morning

(The game is definately simplified. It also almost completely lacks any of the metaphysical grandure of games like Morrowind.)

really. someone forgot to visit an island far off to the north east coast. or to check in riften to see what is the research of that court wizard. sure for now those seems more lead in for future dlc, but there are already some quests.

In any case dagoth ur was a level 15 kill, so you most likely learn the metaphysics after winning. as for tribunal it was a let down, forcing you to defend your murderer (vivec) and kill your wife and buddy.... nothing metaphysical about it

(If you guys think that Morrowind and Oblivion weren't 'mainstream' games you have no idea what you are talking about.)

you mean like failing to see the sith influence on the daedric items and daedra, or the tatoine influence on al ruhn and the morrowind fauna ....

yep, I saw it, but only after watching a lot of star wars the clone war. then it struck me. vardenfell is freaking tatoine-like. just its dark gray ash storm instead of sandstorm. even the bonemold armor is a bit like troopers armors. and the dwemer a bit like the droids.

nothing wrong with influence. just funny I saw it way latter

(There are a couple things I wish they wouldn't have ditched, athletics, acrobatics, spellmaking)

they need to rework it to something that make sense. and can t be abused.

(Morrowind was also on the original Xbox)

good you mention that.

(They said Bethesda "sold out" when Morrowind was released)

I didn t heard that Pseron

The chant was more like
-were are the player houses
-was is the world so weird (daggerfall was verry classic)
-where are the fish, pigs, cows, foxes, rabbits
-why does the dungeon do not respawn
-that game can be beaten in one hour and is horrible waste of money

things got better after tribunal and bloodmoon (especialy) got released
but bethesda never *fixed* the mainland
or expanded features from tribunal and bloodmoon to the mainland

(I'm replaying Morrowind right now for the millionth time, all it has is better art, story, visual atmoshpere)

you hit some point with atmosphere
the distinction between regions was hugue

the enchanting telvani island (which was so strange considering how twisted the telvani were)
the dark aslands
the out of this world red mountain beyond the fence

but the dungeon size were so small it prevented the world to live up to epic expectations

personaly I never replay game, I prefer game that can be played forever, like daggerfall. endless stories

(Exactly what do you mean by crap? The gameplay, the graphics, the overal mechanics?)

he means graphics. kids those days will complain if the dog can t play freesbee or if the nail polish isnt the right color to match the socks

(I 'll agree that the story was better, but that does not make the story of Skyrim bad.)

skyrim story is better. birth of the dragonborn. the rest is up to you. in a way there are no main quest. it is just the beginning.

morrowind was what.... help your murderer from your past life kill the one who was your best friend (dagoth ur) when in fact the 3 gods also tapped into the hearth of lorkhan. tribunal made it worst by forcing you to kill your ex wife. I found this ... hijacking of my character life .... quite insulting. And since morrowind had no respawning, dragons, oblivion gates ..... all you could do was either do the main quest or do nothing. not much of a choice

In skyrim I went totally off the beaten path, game is still fun. from time to time I do quests if I feel like it and it feels like something my character would do. The only mess is the daedric and dark brotherhood quests and the forced thug aspect of the thieves guild without any other stealth alternative

(I mean you can fly acorss the sky at top speed quite quickly if you want to)

the main issue was morrowind had no dangerous flying critters, only cliff racers, and most enemy had no ranged weapons.

I hear complaints like that since Morrowind and how simplistic and small it was compared to daggerfall. It grew worse with Oblivion compared with Morrowind. And now Skyrim compared to it's predecessors.
But who wants to play daggerfall nowadays ? It was too big, too difficult and too complicated.
When I play a game I like some quick and simple entertainment, I don't want just learning how it works to become a full time boring job. And yes, I played arena, daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion. This one is different, that's all. But it is still a TES game.

edit :Astarsis said all while I was typing this post. Good answer, Astarsis.

I can't help but feel you should keep your opinions out of mine.

I still play MW, I'm already bored with Skyrim, waiting on the SDK. (Only made it 40hours, couldn't even trudge though to finish it. So, I'm back playing MW.)

Sorry, but, it's not nostalgia when you still play it, and enjoy it.


So you played it for two seconds and judged it, great...

Morrowind is infinitely better than Skyrim, and it's far from garbage.

I admit, the dice roll based combat svcks, here's a tip, specialize in whatever weapon you want to use for that build, attacks hit much more often then(always at 100), otherwise, pay for training. (Or use magic, it's not like that, if you can cast it, and can aim it(with your mouse), you're going to hit. Use MCP Oblivion style spell casting too, that helps a lot.)

The UI is fantastic, better than OB\SK\FO3\Etc, you can put windows wherever you want, resize them, even toggle them on\off, or pin them so they stay open during gameplay, etc,. (It has flaws, but it's really nice once you get used to it.)

The AI can be stupid, get MWE + NPC Enhanced, this teaches them to use potions, switch between melee\ranged, jump over obstacles like tables, etc,.

If you really want a Skyrim experience, get Combat Enhanced, it has combos which activate special moves based on skill level, ie, thrust, thrust, chop, might trigger a dismemberment if you meet the level requirements(always if you do), and the NPC is damaged enough to kill, etc,. (It has a few issues, but I like it.)

You can actually claim any place as your own, and live there, I always take Nerano manor in Balmora. (in MW, it's easier to decorate, etc, and make it your own, it's nigh impossible without mods in OB\SK due to the physics. Plenty of mods too, plants, furniture, lighting, etc,. Nearly everything decoration related in Skyrim is based on a MW mod, like those fancy sword displays, and armor mannequins, etc,.)

(The MW journal is pretty awesome too, most ppl miss half it's features, it's under options, in the journal, not the ESC menu, it's the best journal system of any game I've played to date. Add in Writing Enhanced + Journal Enhanced, and all your journal-ing needs shall be met.)

Stuff like that(the bad things I mentioned, obviously) aside, MW itself is awesome, I love the guilds, and main quest, etc,. (lore, things of that nature, are where MW really shines.)

I suggest really taking your time, MW does not hold your hand, you have to seek everything out for the most part, and there is tons of content waiting to be found.

Whatever though, if you wanna consider one of the best games ever created garbage, it's your loss.

--

On topic, It's pretty obvious at this point what I think, I hope...

I love the leveling dynamics in this game. Guess what, it's not about being level 81!!! Hahahahahaha - to all the kids that don't get it.

Well said.

I agree with all of this; except, I didn't like MW or O. Great post, Astarsis. What's with the Stephen King writing style, though? (He also likes to use brackets to interject stuff, and throw in random remarks.)

You cannot say it's wrong. You can only say it's not true FOR YOU.

For many others that's true, and for some others it may not be true.

But seeing from my friends my statement made is mostly correct.

Thank you. The issue with most people here is that they think a statement, opinion, or answer can only be WRONG or RIGHT. Why the extremes? This is a place to discuss and dissect information, theories and opinions. Not to attack or patronize one another for a statement of opinion. Almost everything is relative

What? Morrowind was mainstream?
Back when it was new people called me a nerd for playing it.
And then Oblivion came out, which made everybody and their grandma play it, stating it's "the best RPG ever".

You say they removed the fat? Well guess what's left now.
Bare bones.

All I will say is this. When Bethesda releases the next installment of TES, I am going to wait to purchase it. Which speaks volumes. I have plenty of like minded friends who play TES that feel the same way. I'll wait for one of them to put 50+ hours into the game & if they can convince me TES is once again moving in the right direction I'll do some additional research, wait for bugs to be ironed out & then buy the game. Maybe I am just getting older & like more intellectually engrossing games but I find Skyrim to be simplified, repetitive, & quite boring. TES has a closer resemblance to a re-skinned Fallout mod, then a actual TES story.

You've pretty much summed up how I feel. I was in denial at first, which is the case with some people who have been posting in this thread I think. And you've hit the nail on the head with the reference to Fallout.

its the dialogue thats been ruined, as apperantly ppl cant read nowadays, as all play responses are 1-3 words and often reminisant of playground bantter, if this game was inspired more by fo nv than ob, i most have had a different copy of nv to beth, they have made the greatest open word ever, but populated by 'tards that dont chat to each other, forget there own leader/master/hero, and have no depth. could have at least had the same options for followers as nv. I didnt exspect loads of chatting on like fo nv but i didnt exspect i word answer or no answers just, quest excepted, even when not excepted!? im thane of every hold and dragon born with 50 dragon kills scratched on the hilt of my sword, why wont anyone listen to what i have to say!!??! speechcraft a skill aiih lol thats a joke, also intimidating someone is easy when your in deadric armour clutching a two hander -skilled to the hilt, but some pesant is gunna fight me or ignore my request!? its backwards.

ive done each guild on different characters, yet the guards seem to know im in the db or tg, even tho ive never been caught and use disguises, which worked in nv...

My personal (shattered) opinion follows. I have enjoyed TES since Daggerfall. I have never finished any TES game. I have never leveled above level 8 in any TES game. I loved every single of those games and I love Skyrim too. People who will leave now TES and maybe never come back have all the right to do so. I will not miss them. Neither they will me. Mainstreaming is the rule nowadays and any exception to that rule is just that - an exception. The number of people with access to games is increasing, therefore the number of "casual" players (as in - I do not have 5 hrs straight per day to play, I am lucky if I get 2 hrs a week) is increasing. And games just have to earn money for their developers. You can go back to Morrowind and stay there, if you want so. I could not - I have tried more than once, but with all the mods and graphics and everything, I kept uninstalling it very fast - perhaps the main reason is me becoming casual player, I won't ever have enough time for a game like that, and more - the AI and scripting in general is in my opinion a huge step forward (of course, with tweaked and modded parameters, but still) and just as I felt highly dissappointed when returning to the stationary NPCs of Morrowind, now I will feel the same should I ever install Oblivion again...

However, we all are different and anything someone else does/produces/whatever, it always upsets some of us. That's the circle of life.

I dont think making the game more stream lined is selling out. In fact all Beth have done is keep up with the times and fasions of the current market. When Morrowind was released, gaming was less casual, as consoles have become such huge sellers and gamers more casual, Beth as well as most devs have sought to stay in that market. You have to give what the demographic want, but still give something to your fans, or you will go bust. Personally, I think Beth did as good a job as possible and more so, than anyone else this year.

But I agree that DLC's, the current trend in gaming, this will be were the real questions of Skyrim are asked. Small, rich DLC's work for fallout, but for a TES title, it needs to be a lot more grand. If we get something as short as Fallout 3's anchorage, which may I add, I loved ALL of the Fallout 3 DLCs, and it remained one of my all time favourite games, but if Skyrim gets something that size, I am not sure it will work, especially if they are asking ￡15+ for it.

A lot of DF fans think the sellout began with MW.
Myself I don't think they have sold out. Their aim has always been to make money out of making games they would enjoy playing themselves. Nothing to indicate thats changed.

From another thread
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1324306-so-i-think-im-done-playing-this-game/page__st__30