Sold out = changed to appeal to a new market.

Yes, they did. And I find myself not near as immersed in Skyrim as I have been in previous games. I still play it all the time though but always feel like I'm wanting more out of it.

Pshhhhhhhhh, they sold out with Morrowind. What are you on about?

I find myself contemplating getting a gaming PC and going the mod route for the first time. That's how tame this game is.

What do you people think 'Metaphysical grandure' means? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with gameplay. Morrowind was broken, gameplay wise, a hundred ways to tuesday. It was tollerable back in the day, but with Skyrim its now like having teeth pulled and replaced with pop-rocks.

Where Morrowind was superior was in atmosphere, story, and creativity. Skyrim and Oblivion have generic stories with little depth. Oh look, a demon invasion, lets stop it. Oh, dragons are terrorising the peasents, better put an end to that.

Arena had an undefined universe, but a truely monolithic world. Daggerfall had the closest to a living world which you actually impacted in something approaching a realistic way, even if populated by throngs of drones. Morrowind had a metaphysical quality to it that borders on outright philosophy rather than storytelling. Oblivion was... Well... Pretty. Sort of. Skyrim is a respectable ballance of the strengths of previous games, with a new gameplay style which could, if refined, come close to perfecting the TES experience.

That said, exactly what you like in your games will determine what you think is best. I loved the philosophical nonsense of Morrowind, enough for it to overpower the grating gameplay and those thrice damned Cliff Racers (Thouth the dragons aren't much better). To me, depth and mystery is much more important than gameplay or world-impact.

Still, i don't think that Bethesda has YET to tread too far from the ballanced line which expresses the TES universe. We can't say what will happen with the next one. So long as they don't pull a C&C4 on us, i highly doubt that anything that comes down the pipe can be qualified as 'selling out', though the relative focus of the game may shift through Gameplay, living world and storytelling.

Ideally, of course, i would love all three at once, but thats having your cake and eating it too, eh?

Why does everyone keep saying Morrowind is such a better game? Okay, bigger world and better story. But what else though? This is an honest question.

Another serious question for this -




Whats different about Morrowind's story? :/




I love the Skyrim UI

Morrowind was not some intellectual tour de force, it was basically that time in gaming history's version of Skyrim. I remember thinking upon first playing it that it was amazing, but compared to it's contemporaries the gameplay was really pretty bubble gum.

This idea that it was any kind of intellectual masterpiece or that there is some secret part that secretly makes it better than Skyrim is ridiculous, that exists only in your heads.

The game even in it's own time was a bore without being modded to hell and back, I grant you it had an excellent story, and IMO the best artwork and themes of the series to date. However it had some HUGE problems that dwarf anything you could complain about with Skyrim. I actually like Morrowind alot, i'm replaying it right now...but I like it for what it is, not what i'm seeing through rose colored glasses.

It didn't even have scheduled NPCs!!! Even modded to hell with living cities and other mods to modernize it, playing it today will really remind you that while it had some great aspects, in terms of design it really can't compare.


No it didn't, or rather this is just your own tastes speaking.

To me it had a story that was about a big spooky devil man, and you, the wandering stranger, have to stop him. The trappings were more interesting, but the story itself was fairly typical RPG fair..the aesthetic of the game is really all that brings the story out in my eyes, without the visuals the story is really nothing special. and I do think the lore was fleshed out very nicely and the general atmosphere of the game had some real TLC..it was just the right combination for an immersive experience, i'm not sure it's that easy to get that back. It had better have a good story though, because in other ways the game was a joke compared even to aspects of much smaller titles like Gothic, which didn't have NPC's that stood in the middle of town and never did anything, and did a much better job of creating a 'living' world, albeit a smaller one.

For one, you didn't really know what was going on for most of the story. Wheras, you know, in Oblivion and Skyrim you know whats happening after, say, 2 quests.


A technical and an intelectual tour-de-force are two different things. Morrowind was impressive for its time, yes, but it wasn't a technologicla marvel.

It was an intelectual marvel though, in that i drew in concepts which still boggle the Lore board. The 36 lessons, for instance. The metaphisical and spiritual element of the TES univer has not been reflected in any serious way since Morrowind, and even in Skyrim what little metaphysical delvings you have are often superficial, and limited entirely to the character of Paarthunax.

Morrowind was about more than its horribly broken and easily exploitable gameplay. To me at least.

Sorry, but why is that better?
I'm just tryin to understand both sides of the argument.

No some games in a series are gonna have better apects to it than others. It largely depends on what they focus on the most, since if you focus on one aspect of the game more than others the others are going to lack in some way. The Elder Scrolls Morrowind is the greatest game in the history of the universe. at combat and excelled at story, and Skyrim seems the other way around judging from the quality of the guild/main quests.

Just because they sold out once doesn't mean they can't do it again.

I really appreciate that you have a balanced view on the matter, and I actually agree.


I'm curious as to what makes you think they will. Our views may be synonymous.


Unfortunate haha.

Oh my, that's harsh lol. I think you'll see that I did my best to convey foremost as OP that I understand my feelings may be only irrational, and never did I claim to "own" the game. I also made it clear that I haven't played from the "beginning"; I stumbled upon this amazing franchise mid 2008. And, let me reiterate, I also stated that media (including games) should be embraced by all and that I think the streamlined features in Skyrim have been beneficial. Please refer once again to my original post and others that I have contributed

I beg your pardon TazD2. I did not mean to offend, nor did I ever imply that anybody is 'not smart enough' or 'not good enough' to play TES games or that it was MY game lol. I mentioned that I am very glad that Bethesda and TES franchise have garnered the attention they deserve which includes the attention from those who have only played Skyrim. The purpose of this thread was just to gauge the feelings of other fans (whether veterans or new to the franchise) and see if I am alone in my niggling feelings. Feelings which are in no way negatively directed to newcoming fans


Sums up my feelings perfectly. Like you, I still love Skyrim and play it regularly. Nor does this mean I despise or harbour hatred towards those who have only played Skyrim. Just in case the next few posts would like to direct some more sarcastic accusatory questions towards me haha.

To the OP: I feel your sentiment but you know as well as everybody else that Bethesda is a business. They can't survive for long if they cater one sector only. This is a very, very competitive industry and being flexible is a necessity. Sure, I'm not happy with some of Beth decisions as of late but I'm happy that as a pc player we have the CK to modify the game to our liking. To tell you the truth, the day when TES comes without a CS(CK) I'll probably stop following TES because I don't want to play a pseudo-like Tomb Raider game.

It adds a degree of exploration and a building story. Don't get me wrong, stories which you know everything up front and can essentially bang out a quickie have their place, but its not the same as uncovering the truth, or layers there of.

Oblivion was; Oh, the Daedra are invading. We need a Septim and the Amulet of Kings. Got the Septim, but now we lost the amulet. Got the amulet back, but now Dagons running around. DRAGON!

Skyrim is ; Dragons! The Dragon Born kills dragons. Go kill that really angry Dragon. WALE BRIDGE!

Morrowind was more ; We need to make the locals THINK your the Nerevarine to maintain order. You know, you really do meet some of the requirements. What did you say? theres this evil organization spreading a plague? Now you really ARE the Nerevarine, but the people your working for won't like that. ironicly, your enemy will. Its unfortunate, but you have to kill the one person who beleives in you to save the world.

Oblivion ends with a 'Ok, we done here?' moment. Morrowind ends with a 'Did i do the right thing/What just happened' moment. Skyrim has some closure, but to my pleasen surprise still leaves you scratching your head at the very end.

Huh.... Skyrim has added more than it has taken away, in terms of it being a game. Better gameplay, mechanics, graphics, world, atmosphere, voice acting and AI. Worse Lore, Story, writing, and polish. In 2011 it IS expected that a studio releases a game with fewer problems than was expected in 2002. Skyrim has added more than it has taken away. However it has lost some of its charm because ever since Morrowind, each TES game has introduced less, and less complicated, Lore and Writing. But there is a bit of a reason for that. Morrowind was the reboot of the franchise and was TES trying to set itself apart from the legions of other fantasy titles. They wanted to enrapture peoples minds with the POTENTIAL that the game revealed through all the new Lore and places introduced in the game. Morrowind was a good game, but it is the potential seen from it, for the rest of the series, that imo is the reason people always turn back to it as the poster child of what a great TES game is. Arena and Daggerfall were kind of like the ideas and Morrowind the realization. So in some sense, Morrowind is the first TES game and it WAS the first TES game for most people when it came out. Oblivion built on it and Skyrim built on it some more. Skyrim had improved the game somewhat but it certainly had dropped the ball in many places imo.

Not everyone can agree on what makes a game great. For me it is story and the world. In other words the Plot and the Lore, or to make one word the writing. The Lore and the Plot need to connect in ways that make sense and shows progression(time is not necessary for this but it is a common medium). Gameplay and mechanics run a bit behind that and then comes graphics. All these need to make a showing, and a good one at that, in order for a game to be great in today's gaming market. Skyrim makes a good showing on all accounts but it certainly pales in the aforementioned areas in comparison to Morrowind. But it easily trumps the living crap out of Morrowind in the other areas(see bold words).

I think the main flaw for me was that my and many others expectations were too high and that we were overhyped. Many issues with this game but I cannot deny it is a good game. Just not Great in my book and I suppose that is the problem for me.

It really seems like most of the complaints about story boil down to pacing more than anything else.

And on that I agree, Morrowind took a slower-building approach to the story arc, which always is a memorable experience. Skyrim and Oblivion are so sensational from the very beginning that there is nothing to build up to. This is the one place where there might be a point about sacrificing something for a wider audience, I feel like with the main plot in both Oblivion and Skyrim (though Skyrim's is MUCH better so far than Oblivions IMO) there were in a rush to wow people right away, and that always leads to a feeling of dissapointment.

Also as far as i'm concerned we are really just talking main story here, i did not find any of the MW guild questlines particularly amazing. I like the great house ones, but the coolest part was getting your own mansion/stronghold thing built.

I have a cruel chuckle to myself every time I hear of someone looking to play Morrowind now for the first time, on a crummy XBox!

They will NEVER know the joy of PC modding and gaming at that time in the history of the genre.

It's actually kinda sad...

/chuckle

Pretty much.

Cheers

Holy Christ this Elder Scrolls hipster crap is [censored] OLD!

I personally feel that this is another thing Morrowind did right (I can't seem to remember enough about Daggerfall anymore. I should probably go back and play it again). There was ONE 'Save the World' plot in the game. The Guild were institutions functioning in the world, not self contained stories in and of them selves. In Oblivion, [censored] is quite literally hitting the fan. Everywhere. There are Hist-High marauders running around, a psychotic Lich trying to take over the world, and a megolomaniacl Guard Captain who cares more about capturing one theif than the fact the worlds being invaded by Daedra.

Skyrim suffers from the same general disfunction. Between the slowly draining presence of 'luck', the Eye of Magnus, the Dragons and the Civil War, theres so much going on that is dilutes the impact of any individual quest arch.

Don't get me wrong, you did save the world from other threats in Morrowind. But you did it in expansions, which chronologically take place AFTER the Dagoth Ur thing. In Skyrim and Oblivion, everythings going to pot all at once, and the divide focus makes it so each individual plot doesn't seen to have the same world shattering impact. Then you save the world twice more in expansions. Well, you only save Tamriel once more, the second time is the Shivering Isles...

I don't really think you can say they sold out at all. Compare Skyrim to ANY previous TES game and you will notice many new features. Lets put the shoe on the other foot and pretend Skyrim came out in 2002 and they put Morrowind out on 11-11-11 instead. The world would be horrified and they would go out of business. Even if it had shiny graphics it would fail horrible. Here's why:

No combat. It's turn based with a chance to miss, even if you are dead on with the crosshair.
Barely any voice overs.
The gayest animations I have ever seen in any game.
No physics
Horrible sound effects.
No AI. NPC's don't have packages and just stand around lollygagging.
They don't really say or do anything.

Even compare it to Oblivion.
Lacks dual wielding
spell effects are not very good
Stupid combat taunts "move like a pregnant cow"
Horrible leveling system where you get shafted for playing how you want and only get 3 points at level up if you don't micro manage your major skills.
Horrible leveled enemies where bandits get glass equipment and level with you so you never feel any true progress.
Lack of clouds swirling in the mountains
Animals never rest or sleep or swim.
Water has no current
no crafting

I could go on for hours about "missing features" in previous tes games that skyrim can do. It has more quests and way more content. I don't think they deliberately dumbed it down, I think they tried to make the best game they could but us older TES fans are not always going to be peachy about some stuff that used to be there but isn't now. I miss athletics, speed, acrobatics but once the CS comes out I'll have it back and everything else I want. I think Skyrim is the best TES game yet, but you can't please everyone.

Wrong.

I play mainly RPG's, and there is nothing even remotely close to "dumbed down" in Skyrim. It is quite the refreshing sight.

I have mixed feeling to be perfectly honest. There is no doubt that the GUI is dumbed down to "console standards" - same reason I've abandoned racing games because their menu utterly svck. That said, it does actually work. Other than some bugs where key control is missing, key control is now fully possible. Mouse control however, is lacking. And it was always lacking due to mouse lag. Now it even have some additional hotspot problems making it worse.

Why does it work? Because we're not granted the same amount of information, mostly because it's really not needed. We're now to rely on fixed pointers on the map - no quest logs or chat logs at all. When we complained about Morrowinds directions, they didn't improve the directions - they removed them completely and gave us magic markers. That kinda svcked. We have to rely on mods to get rid of those pesky POI markers. Why on earth not a builtin option? Poor console gamers that are actually into role playing and can't use the mods to get it. Some of us are actually kinda hard core when it comes to this, but they don't seem to cater at all for us - everything is about the damned "casual players". Sure, they create the big money for them compared to our rather small group, but did we deserve to get the short stick?

Complexity adds problems wrt identifying problematic balancing areas early. The reduced complexity combined with removal of certain things that broke earlier games, have made the game a lot more balanced. I'm always quick to complain about balance, but the more I think about it, the more I realize how much better it has become. There are still issues in the new crafting department, and I'd seriously like to reduce the speed at which I'm leveling up (give me a damned slider) because I tend to end up overpowered before I really start playing the game. Some exploits still persists, but many have gone away, partly because of this "simplifying".

I'm not for simplifying though. Complexity adds sense to things. Hoping for a completely new stat system in the next game, because it svcks (for me) to have it gone. At the same time, I don't want magic to be what it used to be. More effects, that are unique? Sure. Boring magic system that made magic superior to anything else - no thanks. hardcoe mode, where the things you lack are felt more, would be nice.

Complain complain complain. You see, I actually enjoy Skyrim because i dont have a kajillionbillion expectations, and if the game doesnt live up to every single one, i dont complain about it and say its dumbed down.
What do you call a bunch of ES fans in a basemant?

Well, the HUD and pointer can be turned off.

I think the real problem is lack of a good journal, most of the non-misc quests can be easily done with no pointer/hud, but having like 20 misc quests of "fetch john's bucket" etc. means you can only really complete those with the marker, and you will likely not even remember what they were about.

You have very valid points, and I do agree with you to an extent. However, this isn't about what Skyrim has that the others lack or vice versa. It's about what Bethesda are aiming to do; do they want to singly cater to veterans, find a middle path, or only expand their clientele as you could call it? This is just my opinion, but if TES drifts from the reasons I played the previous games in the first place then what will keep me playing the next titles? I already feel as if Skyrim lacks the RPG elements I enjoyed in previous games and it feels flashy without substance and adherence to lore that I expected and enjoyed. Don't get me wrong though, I love it. It still has so, so many elements that I wanted and I don't want to seem like I'm complaining. I'm sorry if it's come across that way, that wasn't my intention.

I just feel that if this trend of skimming down content and becoming too simple (for example subtracting lore and deleting features that embody TES), then the franchise will become a ghost of what it was. This not only applies to TES, but to every game out there. Sometimes (not all the time and not with all games, but frequently enough to cause concern), I feel that gaming genres have blurred and have become simplistic and generic. What makes an RPG different from a FPS these days? (RHETORICAL thanks haha) I don't want my hand held too much, and I want to be able to distinguish one title from another. I just would like a balance between streamlining for widespread success (which should be happening and has been done with Skyrim) and also maintaining those little features that may not adhere to the universal gaming rules of raking in the cash, but just give some fan service to those who miss the substance of older TES games. Just my opinion of course