I agree, and I too found Morrowind one of the least challenging games i've ever played.

I really don't understand this kind of take on things.

The game is just an improved version of Oblivion, with less ways to break the world, and missing a few things that I do understand people wanting back. The change in practical (not fanciful, emotionally laced vague nostalgia) terms of game play isn't as huge as people are making it out to be.

There are a lot of valid points coming through, which is exactly what I was hoping for. As I mentioned foremost, I am aware that streamlining is a move in the positive direction. My negative feelings actually stem from a combination of irrational over-protectiveness, and a more rational fear that as the franchise progresses Bethesda will continue skimming and skimming down content until we're left with a shell of what TES used to be.
I feel that it can't be denied that with every new TES (especially since Morrowind, obviously) major changes to the depth of each game has been made. For instance, the story of Morrowind was meatier and it left much more to be inferred rather than hand holding the player. To me it felt incredibly original, and most significantly immersive as I wandered the environment following NPC delivered directions rather than a map marker. Oblivion came along and introduced a streamlined quest system and travel system which was, honestly, a relief. Yet I still yearned for the way Morrowind felt. And now, Skyrim. More and more skimmed down in regards to aspects which I won't go over again as they've been mentioned a couple times already.

Some people have suggested that if we don't want to play 'mainstream' games, we go play the nearly unknown indie games out there. Yet this isn't the case. I love TES franchise, and it's popularity in the mainstream world would not hinder me from playing and enjoying Skyrim and any following games (which there will hopefully be). I just can't help fearing that this has become a trend that will result in a generic hand-holding game that leaves nothing to the player.

I'd also like to pose the idea that Skyrim has derived more from and been influence more by the Fallout: 3 and New Vegas than its TES predecessors, which would be a shame. Just an idea, I'd like to see how people feel about it. Myself, I think that this could be the case. Whilst playing Skyrim, I can't help but feel as if I'm playing Fallout NV instead.

This. I agree whole-heartedly. It's a rational fear.

Where the hell did you get the idea that i want a return to any other type of gameplay? I said Skyrim's gameplay is superb, in principal, even if it does lack refinement. What i miss is the depth of storytelling and the characters. In oblivion and Skyrim, even with voice acting, characters are little more than information boxes who tell you whats going on.

I'm tired, that why my articulation may not be the best. What's your excuse for radically missenterpreting what i say?

sometimes this game makes me feel like "of might and magic" is still epic.

Why? Those are great games. And from aesthetics alone, how in the world could you mistake the two?

I suppose I'm confused by such threads. I love the world, think the storytelling is superb. I guess I should count myself lucky at having my expectations exceeded.

You need to come to the realization in an open world sandbox game, game studios will no longer have the depth of storytelling long as voice actors are involved.

Think about what it takes to hire and implement 100pct voice acting. Studios must hire and fly in actors from around the world over and during the brief time they are at Beth stuidos, will need to sit at a mic and cram a slew of words, quotes, sentences etc for hours on end. Months down the road a QA tester going over the gameplay may notice errors in the plot and report it. it's slim and nil the developer is going to fly in the same voice actors to voice over the changed script, as opposed to earlier times when a writer can just send the coder a bunch of text to redo the script.

Therefore it's imperative for Beth writers to get the script down pat the first time prior to the first voice actors walking into their studios, but for a first time pass to add the sheer amount of storytelling via voice acting compared to the flexibility of text based read only games is slim and none

If you don't have a problem with the game, and you are one of these 'loyal fans', what makes you think they have sold out the game to please the broader demographic? Surely if you are one of these old school fans and have put 200 hours into the game, there are plenty of others in the same boat. And yet, here we are in a thread about how Bethesda is selling out.

Surely you're not taking all the comments on this forum as serious criticism are you? It's like on in twenty posts is even worth entertaining in terms of real, valid complaints.

Curious how characters dialogue choices were better in Morrowind, most of them say the exact same stuff, and have the exact same list of stuff to talk about, it's just in text. Really, minus some well written bits within the main quest, there is nothing amazing at all about Morrowind dialogue. I've played the )(*& of out of Morrowind, and I'm really mystified as to what people think is so different about it other than the artwork...which is admittedly fantastic.

To be honest, the game has been simplified a bit too much for my liking. BUT... it is still alot of fun to play and as a long time fan of the elder scrolls I do miss a few things in the game but that's what making skyrim unique. I think I would be slightly irritated if it was a morrowind with a new texture pack and a new story and some new items because that's the modders job. Bethesda made the game different and apparently it also attracted alot of customers which is a good thing for them. I remember when Oblivion was released and I wasn't too keen on buying it but after a while I did and U was sorry I didn't buy it on release.

So what I want to say here is that the older fans of this franchise should atleast try and play the game to the end and try to enjoy it. If there is something you miss in this game then you could mod it in yourself or wait for a modder to create it.

Of course they are great games, I love them. But I'm sure you can understand why I wouldn't want to be reminded of Fallout whilst playing TES game. It's not due the aesthetics of the game, I am more than capable of distinguishing between the environmental differences of each game as well as their environmental themes and settings. Don't misconstrue my OP as being a disdain for Skyrim, I love the game. I struggle to go a day without playing a minimum of a couple of hours. That's bare minimum, mind you. Even though I love Fallout, I want TES to stay as TES and I'd rather be reminded of Morrowind when I'm playing rather than Fallout 3. Just a thought.

This a "cry" I've seen with each new release of an Elder Scroll game. Especially the ones after Morrowind got the biggest attention in this area then when Daggerfall followed up on Arena. It seems the younger gamers just have more to complain about for the sake of complaining. I loved the older games because they showed a lot of promise, but they were simple in execution. Some minor things have been removed such as being able to climb walls of castles and settlements. As for graphics these games have always tried to push the borders and they succeeded with that again in Skyrim. The immersion of sound is well done as always. Sounds of birds and other things in nature to city life. You can bring up the point that the responses and voices of generic NPC's are that...generic. But that is ok, because it has always been that way and will stay that way for quite some time to come.

Is the gameplay streamlined? Streamlined which often is synonym for dumbed down catering the most simplest of minds that make up the majority of these days individuals? Personally I don't feel it is that way at all. With Daggerfall you wondered around pressing 1 or two keys to attack and that was it. Menu's weren't that complex nor were the game mechanics. And I don't feel the game is being dumbed down at all. A lot has been added and streamlined menu's and gameplay really make a difference to make the game properly playable. What did bother me with Oblivion was the scaling system and am glad that I don't see that in Skyrim any more. Another aspect is that Morrowind has had me spoiled. There were cults and competing religions as well as other factions. In short Morrowind had a lot going on which made the world come to life. Life which I did not find in Oblivion in the same way. Instead Oblivion felt rather lifeless in which I rushed through the main quest and couldn't be captivated by the side/faction quests. Skyrim seems to have found some of that life back again. I spend more time on other quests instead of worrying about the main quests line. As for the gameplay it is some what refreshing to see that Bethesda holds true to the "old school" of levelling characters. There is no set path and you merely develop by actually using the skills. This allows for a wide variety of character "builds" with none being the best. It is good to see a game where things actually kill you if you encounter them to early. Even bears can still be deadly in the early stages. It isn't like other RPG's where the developers rail road the experience and where you encounter only opponents that are beatable. In The Elder Scrolls I still feel a mild adrenalin rush when encountering something new wondering if I can beat it. Or if it is too strong and I die having to reply the last 45-60minutes.

In short I don't feel like Skyrim sold out. I feel it has regained some of the life Morrowind had which Oblivion had lost.

ps
People keep mentioning the possibility of a 6th title in the Elder Scrolls series. This is not possible. The original tale speaks of 5 scrolls that hold a prophecy. Each game is about 1 of those scrolls. The 5th game, Skyrim, is the last of the Elder Scrolls. The only option Bethesda has in order not to aggravate the old time fans and ruin the story is to start an entire new series. Possibly in the same world, but not the same story line.

First off, per generic dialogue in Morrowind, i agree. The vast majority of people were mindless drones. But, then, the realworld is little different. Oblivion and Skyrim, however, lack anything in the way of memorable characters, while Morrowind had several.

Second, if you would care to actually READ anything i said, i made it quite clear that Bethesda has NOT sold out, though it treads an ever-fine line. All companies do, and so fare Bethesda has managed to keep the old dogs intrested, by and large, while attracting new players.

Again, i'm tired, whats your excuse?

As for the Voice Acting causing the downfall of good story telling in sandbos games, i agree. Unfortunately, to appeal to that wider audience (And indeed to not shrink the playerbase) it was something of a nessesity. However, in the Voice acting and the drive to make everyone feel unique, they've made it so no one does. No one stands out from the crowd, and even the effort they make in creating unique villagers has them fall into the same generic backdrop as you had in Morrowind. I for one would rather a town full of generic drones with one memorable character then one consisting of half developed psudo-characters.

It's every release. Peeps were doing same thing when Baldurs Gate 2 released as many didn't like the changes from original Baldurs gate. Then it was Neverwinter nights comparison to Baldurs Gate2 then NWN 2 being compared to the original NWN.

It's just the normal cycle of particular gamers who have difficulty adapting to change and use game forums to vent, haha

Firstly, when you go down the road of ad hominem, it takes away some of the legitimate aspects of your thinking. Com'on "dumbed down". You offend those who may have never stumbled upon the series, or actually played through the series and found an improvement. Anyway, with that off my mind. I disagree with you, so:


While I personally find some of the aspects not good, Skyrim brought back some of that Morrowind and Daggerfall feeling. Oblivion, IMO, was abysmal at conversations, storyline and gameplay but had a neat looking world, though Skyrim seemed to keep that same style of combat. But Skyrim has a very good conversation system with expository conversations and a decent storyline, and a much better looking world, especially aesthetically. Other than its nice looking elements, Oblivion has really none of that, other than seemingly mindless responses from NPCs in the game, again my opinion. One aspect in an RPG that is important to me is "player agency", the aspect where choices I make in the game have effects on plots states and in the ambiance of the NPCs and the world. Skyrim brought some of that back to what was near completely removed in Oblivion. What I did like about Oblivion, nearly more than any in the series, was the complex character build it offered and how strict it was holding that player to it (without exploits or cheating it). One had to meta-game to make the correct decisions in choosing their class, sign, etc or it could work out badly. There was no choosing any skill you want and being able to build it up fast without choosing the correct underlying ancillary skill. That is something I think Skyrim failed on, again, my opinion.

IMO, Daggerfall was the best of the lot. Similar system as Skyrim for skill building, except you were held to strict skill standards once you chose one, where others you chose would fail or would be just to hard to learn. Also, it had multiple endings based on one's decisions in the game, somethign that made daggerfall the best (still) for me in the series. If you feel the way you do about LOTR style games, then I guess you would hate Dragon Age: Origins, probably a near clone of the theme. But I will say this, it smokes any TES game, except that of Daggerfall for my taste any day, it is that deep of a game. Too bad EA bought the developer that made those classics (Baldur's Gate, KoTOR, Neverwinter Nights).


Then I suggest playing Daggerfall, if you can get past the graphics. The game is free now, but can be very hard and the world is huge. I thought the same thing as you when Morrowind came out 6 years after Daggerfall, but then Oblivion came out and I appreciated Morrowind's clunky combat and ugly spellcasting effects. I will say this though, I think it was a bad move to remove spellmaking from Skyrim. Hopefully, when the CK comes out, the modders will fix taht.

As long as action and first person shooter games are becoming the staple of the average gamer's diet, Bethesda will keep changing.
For that is where the profit can be made. However they do seem to try and add as much RPG features as business will allow.

But when they do truly sell themselves out, this will occur only a repeat of a 'Dragon Age II' and they will have to return to their RPG roots.
For if you remove the rock of your foundation (loyal fans) and hope to replace it more with liquid (feature fans) you shall only fall into a puddle (failure).

That's my two cents on the subject at any rate.

Thank you for you two cents haha, I think you have an incredibly valid point.

I just hope that TES does not fall into a puddle and continues to find a balance between catering to feature fans and to loyal fans and to everybody in the gaming demographic. I'll be incredibly happy if they lean more towards the Morrowind roots whilst at the same time not taking steps backwards, and I do believe this is possible. Everybody keeps construing my desire for Skyrim to be more like Morrowind as me wanting a return to bad graphics and sluggish combat. This is not the case. I am referring to more subtle things such as the feel of the game, the immersion factor, the depth of story which can still be achieved with the current streamlined, more effective menu and skill systems. Ideally without compromising the heart and soul of TES as they did, unfortunately, with the exclusion of the spell creation feature. As was mentioned previously.

Metaphysical grandure? You have got to be kidding me...

Morrowind as a game is and always was broken beyond belief. In fact, I would never ever recommend the game to anyone who would play it on console. You absolutely NEED mods to make it even tolerable. Its actually one of my favorite games ever when modded, but please stop acting like its somehow so much more than the sum of its parts. 99% of what makes Morrowind great is inside the players head, it has very little to offer outside the interesting gameworld and story.

As a game Skyrim is better in every way. The only thing that annoys me is how the game shoves every guild and quest down your throat, what we need is a mod that gives me more options and opportunities to refuse doing stuff I don't want to do.

You have a point. Dragon Age 2 let down a lot of fans, even those who Bioware/EA was trying to attract, because those same fans loved Origins and bought it to near 5mil in sales. DA2, still well below 2mil in sales across all platforms. Bioware all but admitted they need to go back, but maybe try something else. Having said this, Skyrim, IMO, did bring back much of what was missing in Oblivion, that being of having good expository conversations that told a lot, along with some player agency. So, I think they made the right move for my taste, but still not enough. My opinion of course.

This is very true!
C&C 4 people! God danm EA!

at least they sacked those guys and brought in Bioware to make Generals 2.
A C&C game with paragon options.........at least it has bases!

Yes that annoys me greatly. And do choices hold much weight as they should? Do your choices shape the game or alter the outcome as much?

Nope the opposite. They delivered an amazing game that is as awesome to play as Morrowind was. They paid attention to their mistakes from Oblivion, learned several useful things from working on the Fallout franchise, and pulled it all together in what is the best game of the last 10 years. It's a master-work

Now your talking about a game "dumbed down" , i can't see how a single player game can be VERY challenging , the main aspect of a single player game should be that it is actually fun to play and appeals to a wide community. I too am one of the people who started out Skyrim as my first TES but i have played Fallout before and i know how the concept works, you should not be calling every new player to TES a "skyrim fan" because there are many others like me that don't claim to be a skyrim fan, i just like the game and i play it.

For players like you that have played the whole series or atleast some of the older ones, i understand how you feel that the game might be dumbed down etc.. I had the same feeling when the WoW Cataclysm expansion hit, i understand what you feel but you should not consider every new comer a unintelligent tool that came to the game just because it was dumbed down and now claims to be a fan.

Skyrim is a good game, but it is obvious Bethesda has catered to simpletons with the user interface.

I guess what hurts me the most is the potential that in my opinion Skyrim wasted. Comparing Morrowind and Skyrim is pointless since these games are from two different generations. What I hoped for was that Skyrim will continue to improve aspects that I loved in Morrowind.

For example, I liked reading books in Morrowind. 'The Pilgrim's path' was really something enjoyable, since it gave you essencial hints for completing the quests. I really hoped Skyrim would extend their books, journal, adjust alchemy system with recipes. What I get instead? I open a book and I start a quest, with marker to the exact location. Why would I ever need to read it? The journal is nonexistant. Most of the quests I completed were boring because they didn't force me to do anything, just follow a marker. Another example: I liked how Morrowind didn't restrict me. I could improve my mage character without moving outside my tower. If I needed souls, I could summon minions then trap them. If I couldn't summon them, I needed to make a spell that would allow me to, or buy few scrolls, which are nearly nonexistent in Skyrim, or create an enchanted item. I really hoped Skyrim would extend and improve enchanting and alchemy. Well, it didn't. Both are still broken, imbalanced, except Skyrim has degraded version.

I think Skyrim can be really great game, it has majorly improved combat system. But I never really cared about combat, and used vast majority of means Morrowind and Oblivion had to avoid it.