I know long knife's argument quite clearly, IM Saying that people should PLAY THE BLOODY DLC BEFORE JUDGING IT!!!

I wonder too why there is this faction dawnguard has just appeared, is it a just a branch of the vigilants of stendarr or is it a new faction to deal with this vampire plot to end the sun. I doubt it was a ancient and secret organisation because of the castle and crossbows

Pay money for something that would have been better if bethesda had listened to us?

I'm not saying mistakes don't happen, there is a lot of lore there... and even real writers mess up there own stories because of how much lore there is. But your gasping at straws with this. Had this been a first hand account by a Volkihar Vampire that we could prove to be a Volkihar Vampire in the game or other accounts. Then we could better hold BS for not following there own lore. But alas we have poorly written account for someone who appears not to even be Volkihar and few min trailer that really doesn't break any lore that we've really read about when it comes to the Volkihar Vampire even if we assume its accurate or not.

Where does it say his race in Immortal Blood? Just because its randomly generated doesnt mean its not the same guy.

He's had two centuries or more to practice

Volkihar have all the same abilities as any other vampire encountered in skyrim, when Volkihar is used in the title it just signifies a more powerful enemy.

Yes

Funny In the Imperial library it files "Immortal Blood" in the fiction category books that are made up by their authors, and may not have happened.

Yes, because voicing his concerns that Bethesda isn't adhering to their established lore clearly means he doesn't like the lore. That's why he's so upset. They aren't following the lore he doesn't like, and he's so mad that they aren't doing that because he hates that lore so much.

Funny you should say this...


When before you have said that ...


Enough said.

Have you seen the DLC Leak scans?

And this is where I disagree.
If you're not going to include them in the future? Don't bother telling us about them. Hell, if you for whatever reason think it's REALLY neccesary that we know there was a werebear problem in Skyrim 200 years ago? Then tell us IN SKYRIM, after they're already gone. That way, we won't care because we can't be sad about losing something we never had.

When they say "WEREBEARS GALORE IN SKYRIM!" and then they're not here, then yeah it's logical for us to be disappointed. I mean if they made TES VI in Elsweyr and then we find the Khajiit don't "worship" the moons (dunno how to word it), they don't have a Mane as a form of government and the country is actually more of a jungle with 0 desert, then yeah, we'll be disappointed. They can say "OH THAT WAS ELSWEYR 600 YEARS AGO." Ok cool....then don't [censored] bother telling me if it's not gonna matter.

His point was that the same person telling people to withold judgment did not withold his judgment on how 'amazing Dawnguard is.'

The point is i was on when the expansion leak, I discussed it since the beginning when we got the first details, Yes i should re phase it to "Most of us THINK that dawnguards going to be amazing", from all the new content and new game play mechanics we have gathered a LOGICAL conclusion!!!

Big Boss, you're the best soldier there ever was, but you did contradict yourself. I have seen teh scans, but we still don't know much how this will fit into existing lore.

Again though, it's not -just- about the Volkihar. It's more about the habit of retconning Bethesda is developing. I'd like to see that habit killed.

I've named several examples of retcons we've seen from Oblivion to Skyrim, and there were several retcons from Morrowind to Oblivion, and Daggerfall to Morrowind. I'm saying I want to see a bit more commitment to what they write. There's an obvious pattern and I think we would all enjoy the TES series that much more if the retconning and misinformation would stop.


Imagine you're about to take a trip to Japan and I tell you it's this great place filled with beaches and sun, a very outgoing and social culture, plenty of surfing and a love of Football. Then you get there and find out it's kinda cold, there's no surfing, football is "meh" and the people, while friendly, are introverted. There's nothing wrong with Japan objectively; it's still a nice country. But am I an outrageous ass for misleading you? Yes, yes I am.

Bethesda released a trailer for Dawnguard. A trailer that was intended to not only build excitement for fans, but also to indicate what they might find in the game. They had GameInformer do a story on the DLC for similar reasons. The stuff they showed doesn't match up with what we've previously been told, or at least, it doesn't appear to. This worries him.

Did you see Jack and Jill? How about Bucky Larson: Born to be a Star? Or Vampires svck? Or The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn Part 1? Or a hundred other movies I could list off? Chances are at least a few of them would have slipped under your radar or at the very least you didn't bother to go see. But there's trailers for each of them online I'm sure, so you could go and see the trailer.

Now if you watched the trailer, and the movie didn't look good, could you say that the movie was bad? No. However, you could say that you didn't like what you say in the trailer, and you don't think/aren't sure if the movie is going to be good or not/you think the movie is going to be bad. You're basing your claims off the trailer, the thing made to make you want to go see the movie.

Longknife is doing the same thing. I don't think he's saying "Dawnguard's horrible and if you like it you're probably fat." When I read his posts, I get the impression that he watched the trailer, and the stuff Bethesda put into it made him worry that they were retconning/scrapping the lore in favor of something completely different.

You judged the content of Dawnguard that was showcased in the trailer and the press release to be good. He judged it less kindly. But you can't be mad at him for having a negative impression of the content, because he got that impression the same place you got yours: from content Bethesda released to give potential buyers an impression of their product.

Are we even allowed to discuss the leak scans on these forums?


Sounds like a great place. xD

Funny fact
With all this rambling going on I had to check twice if this was the Skyrim forum or the Mass Effect 3 forum

we are, were just not aloud to link them.

They probably wasn't planning there Skyrim game when they told us about them, it was lore found in in-game books which they thought would make it iinteresting for players to spend time doing things other than hacking away at bad guys. Then got to Skyrim and saw the difficulties related to putting them in the game and decided to focus on improving other mechanics which is where other developers may of done things differently and left there core gameplay and other features rather thin because there were working on too much. I can see why people may of been dissaponted in not having them and perhaps Bethesda Development team were dissapointed they didnt get time to get them in the game properly, but by the look of the gamjam stuff we might still get them at some point.
And not to cause a disagreement on future games thats a long way off, quite a bit of that may of changed, they are now under the control of the Aldmeri Dominion who seem quite keen on Opression so if government and religion didn't change in Elsweyr it would be breaking other lore.

I understand were you coming from, but in the grand scheme of things... there is a 200 year time difference, so these places you read about are likley not to be the same. Sure they could have thrown a line or two in saying the werebears were killed off... but that would have left them unable to add them in later on if they wanted too. Perhaps there planning to do something with them in DLC.

It's game, a huge game... they have a limited time to do these things. Some things don't make it. That is life. This happens in all media- books, movies, games... things get cut or left out all the time, and your left wondering why it wasn't talked about again.

I'm completely guessing but...


1. Molag Bal creates the vampires
2. A group of vampires form, called the Volkihar
3. The Volkihar plot to blot out the sun with the use of the Elder Scroll(s)
4. A group of vampire hunters form to stop them and name themselves Dawnguard. Since, you know, they're guarding the dawn

You haven't heard of them through lore because this would be a relatively new event. The vigilants of stendarr may be another vampire hunting group, but this DLC is just going to be about one group of vampires plotting to get rid of the sun, and the group that are trying to stop them.

As long as you do not post any links to the leaks or give direction on where to get it, AFAIK

It's sad seeing people hung up on lore that doesn't necessarily apply anymore. Skyrim is 200 years after the last canon lore for most of the issues in question. They're not necessarily retconning, just advancing. They have to directly contradict a known canon fact within a reasonable contemporary timeframe for it to be a retcon. An example of a Retcon would be Talos the immortal god being cast out in the lore, since his divinity is confirmed in Morrowind, and gods are immortal. (Contradiction in the subjects reasonable time frame)

See, I don't buy that?

1) How is it hard to implement the Volkihar. Tunnelers of New Vegas burst from the ground, Spriggans IN SKYRIM come out of "the walls" (trees to be more specific). There's no reason Volkihar can't use these scripts.

2) A certain faction in Skyrim are werewolves. Instead of werewolves? Make them werebears. PROBLEM SOLVED. Yes it'd be nice to have both, but if there's truly time restraints, I think werebears, according to established lore, imply the werebears take precendence over werewolves. And hell, what are werebears? A re-skin of werewolves. That's literally all they are. Not that hard to implement....

3) You can watch the "Making of Skyrim" video on Youtube and they specifically state they chose Skyrim "because it had the most established lore." Then they proceeded to rip it apart.


Sort of off-topic, but if we went to Elsweyr in TES VI and the Aldmeri Dominion governed them? I would actually be ok with this. Why? Because Skyrim provides reason to believe such an occurance is plausible. Smooth, natural transition. That's what this change in the Volkihar lacks. One moment they're popping out of lakes, the next moment they're pimpin' it up in castles and watching Underworld movies all day.




Which is a cheap excuse and a poor writing technique. If you're just gonna say "THE NEXT ELDER SCROLLS WILL TAKE PLACE 8923895928357 YEARS IN THE FUTURE" to alleviate yourself of any responsibility to your own lore? Then don't bother with lore. Either commit or don't commit, but don't half-ass it.

We don't know that for sure yet. I doubt they threw that dragon into the trailer popping through the ice just to lol at us. And I know I said that to you before, but my post got burried to fast for one to expect it to be read. Set piece or not, even if it only happens once, I think it's a safe bet that they at least read their past lore and incorperated parts of it.

I hope so. I think I agreed it seems plausible, and while an underwater pimped out castle with winged vampire lords was never exactly described as the calling card of the Volkihar, that'd at least be a decent compromise. They're AT LEAST under an icy lake...