That bolded part happens in this game, in fact it happens in most MMOs. Also Aiming is a twitch skill. And you still have to aim somewhat in this game.

I will not be satisfied until Dark Souls' PVP system and combat is made into an RvRvR concept and collision detection is perfected.

As far as PVP in ESO goes? I'll wait and see.

Well I've played the game and I disagree. This is just a 'gussied up' tabbed targeting.

What they did instead of actually have those skills in the game is impose some rules like having to face the opponent, or being in a certain range. In the solo game if you block you actually can block no matter what your character skill level - your character may not be able withstand the fatigue drain and the shield will get beat down, but you can do it every time if the player skill is there.

With this game the emphasis is far more on the character skill. Pulling a ratio out of my etheric region and I'd say about 80% character skill or more. The rest player skill.

The caveat here is that I'm speaking mostly of PvE. I've not had the experience of playing PvP with this yet.

The blocking in this game works exactly like single player games. It only blocks in front of you and drains stamina when blocking. In a way, blocking in the single player is more character based since it has a skill that levels up to make it effective while this one does not.

If they just made projectiles not heat seek you wouldn't notice a different. It still involves more aiming than any other tab target game.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument, but no I disagree - strongly. agree to disagree and wait for others to play and see for themselves.

It does kind of have a morrowind feel to the blocking - because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. While I don't know the mechanics underneath - one explanation is that it is not an auto success. Certainly it wasn't in first person - maybe the first person kinks are involved. The block animation is rigid and slow making the ability to block dynamically not very player skill friendly.

I very much would notice a difference. Since 2008 I've play tested 100s if not 1000s of mods for Oblivion/Skyrim and worked closely with a few modders in testing incremental updates to their combat mods which include archery. I'd say that I have more than a passing knowledge of what the solo games offer in this regard and how much this game isn't like them. They do offer a few work around rules, but it is a gussied up tabbed targeting game with a few parameters that intimate solo game combat.

One is not needing to be aware of the environment, footing, or even fatigue levels with this game. I'd agree though that is better than other MMO, but no major leap or anything.

The graphics are better than most MMOs ... the fact that you can feel like your driving your character instead of super isometric is better than most MMOs.

people keep assuming tab targeting games do not require skill, they do. if they did not you could just copy someones build to a T and be just as good, this of course is not the case

you can have a successful pvp game no matter the system. fun is all the matters in the end

just want to say, TERA is a 100% skill shot based mmorpg and it didn't worked so great. End of Story

brb comparing a MMORPG to MOBAs and FPSs

There have been a few nnos that place greater emphasis on player skill than character skill. one i can think of right now is almost nothing but pvp. as a matter of fact it it is higher player skill than the few fps games i tried because it also has friendly fire. if you swing wide you hit teammates standing beside you.

i think most people here never played it including the op and that would be because Darkfall Online simply posed too much difficulty for the majority of people. That much player skill and the death penalty of full loot pose a significant barrier to player entry and retenntion. i found i could only play sucessfully one or two hours a day. you just had to be hyped up all the time to win. The only casual feeling gameplay was the bits of pve you could find and that never lasted very long. especialy since the quest and criminal system focused on killing red players.

Rpgs are all about extended play times and depth of character. the pvp system of a game like this is about large scale teamwork over many hours and days rather than a single player or two over five min mini games.

I liked Tera..just not the rampant pedophilia and endless grinding. The combat was fun though

Yes I enjoyed Tera's combat a lot, I stopped playing when I hit lvl 30 because the quests were EXACTLY the same, it got so boring.

And like WOW, I became incredibly bored with it and quit playing.

thwere is a pvp game however, much older than wow and daoc that if were still supported today in its unmodded original state(minus bugs) that I would still be playing. Meridian 59. IMO it had the best character progression and pvp system ive ever seen in the last 20 years, that is until it was modded and the monthly subscription price tripled. once that happened, everyone quit playing it. But the system itself was excellent. I think it would be awesome if a game was developed using its progression and pvp system with today's technology.

eventually all games get boring, does not mean they are bad games

I wish I played Meridian59. It was one of the games I missed.
On topic, I support character skill over player skill in MMOs. Reading peoples comments to the contrary makes me think:
A. People dont understand the concept of RPG
B. People think of MMOs as a game and therefore lump it in with fps and other twitchy games where player skill is more important than character skill (or the character doesnt really even exist)

Good insight, as you may have already noticed i placed a video on the OP showing how M&B combat is.. Bear with me, this next part is important.

ESO offers to show up to 200 players on screen at once, which is an amazing feat but should it really limit them on how they can do combat?

-M&B has a b2p mod that allows for 200 players to fight on a single server, these battles involve physics, bullet speed, destruction, over 100 different outfit combinations, ect.

So what im seeing out of this is hopefully a milestone for MMO's, and i HOPE ESO succeeds in its own right as a step in the right direction but the whole point of the thread is to question how the current system can have any long-term lasting effect that will be talked about for years and become a benchmark for online games. M&B may seem like a pushover indie game, but its following is a cult and you can still hop on during peak hours to find several 200 player seiges going on.

Because you are too young...

Old Systems can work very well, look at path of exile, its basically diablo 2, but it works fantastic. Gamers today are not more serious, the just think they are the best players in the world. Look at LoL for that

i would argue that gamers today are far less serious. the work that went into be a RPG gamer back in the day was immense. now all people need to do is type something into google

A. Fetch quests are not rpg, sorry no. Rpg - means falling into your character (perhaps even avoiding power playing), but with the limits of classes and skills following classes instead of the other way around then this actually serves to limit rpg down to the MMO trinity of class design. Well I guess one could argue that for the sake of having to cater to folks who only concern themselves with the inter-changability of party roles that this needs to happen. This puzzle fit then is enforced more so than players creating their character to fit.

B. There is without doubt core game design concepts that are common to many many high fantasy MMORPG games. Tabbed targeting, isometric views, ability bars, items that can't be used till a certain level, Mobs that just hang out and don't attack on sight, lack of physics or collision, on and on.

Point B is an extreme take on the argument being laid out in several threads. I know I have attempted to emphasize that it is a synergy between player skill and character skill that makes for the most memorable gaming experiences. This argument is alive on the modding forums too. Modders of Morrowind claim it to be more rpg because it is all about character skill while oblivion introduced more player skill. So one mindset is that MMOs should maintain this approach, and then there is the rest of us who want progress. It is a video game after all and playing the same mechanics over and over from a distance is not exciting and feels dated. pure twitch though is an insult. Better game mechanics that give player skills the ability to accentuate character skills is the idea: like modded oblivion/skyrim, M&B, Chivalry, etc. These games require more than twitching reflexes and are more about strategy in live combat.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that this game will never have that. Never.

To get that kind of action with physics and collision that matter it has to be coded in from the ground up. They have prettied up and set some parameters in these MMO game play mechanics here that intimate solo game combat, but anyone who really pays attention to player skill is going to be disappointed. I mean other than those who get into MMO socialized combat and the 'at a distance' isometric character leveling - and considers that exciting, which I don't get.

Path of exile.. Another title that gets next to no attention. You have a small group of people who praise the game while a storm of others on various forums find the game completely asinine. Path of Exile, however, did a fantastic job of pleasing the majority of its target audience and followed its goal to the T, which is extremely admirable. Tbh people only got mad at d3 because it had connection issues, couldn't be played offline, and that it had an auction house.

I personally have never played LoL as i am an avid Dota player. LoL took a formula (as far as i know) which was originally created inside Warcraft 3. Many acclaim Warcraft 3 to be the greatest game of all time, period. It introduced an interchangeable turn speed, a reliable dice randomization system, skillshots, as well as something called an actuation point for attacks, meaning the attack will not follow through if it is canceled mid cast. There are exceptions to every rule and Warcraft 3 was a golden nugget for its time and is still played by tens of thousands on a daily basis, with occasional cash tournaments.

The problem is the balance between solo and team fighting. In Mount and Blade (which i seem to be using too often as an example), the chain of command gives orders down the vine and knows whos better than others. The command, for example, can be to shuffle left throw spears.

-In a game with the ESO system all the spears will hit, which means this is a completely automated, non-skill based attack.

- In a skill shot game, the spears serve as a chance for players to show off their practice and possibly weaken some shields or actually kill (in a very rare circumstance)

Another command would be to flank left.

- In an ESO game this would rarely be necessary but when executed will obviously involve the execution of (hopefully) stun attacks to allow the front party to move in. Of course the stuns are guranteed.

-In a skill shot game, this could give a major opening to the flanking force to essentially wipe out half the opposing force, but defenders can still defend if they are talented multi taskers who can delay two enemys at once. There is even a chance of retreat with minimal losses

Or of course, the retreat command

-In an ESO game players will press Tab+Stun/slow and run away

-In a skill shot game, sacrifices will be made and archers will need to slow melee attackers while the main force retreats

You can't just tab through targets in this game You have to actively aim at them to target them.

To cut a long story short:
An MMORPG is not meant to be a fast paced action game, but it's meant to be about "teamplay", "cooperation", "character build templates", "strategy" and all those little things that seem to make no sense to people with the OP's mindset.


With in fact is not a wrong mindset but it's a mindset that will keep you from having fun in any MMORPG.

(As for Planet Side: It's MMO but it's not RPG.
It's an MMOFPS with RPG-Elements.
There's a hugh difference 'tween a RPG and a game with RPG-Elements, just don't mix them up.)

Aiming in a general direction and pressing tab is hardly an improvement to the system, but in todays MMO scene it can be marketed to be a major milestone

No you don't.
That's what soft-targeting is all about.

All you have to do is keep your enemy on the screen and you will keep on hitting as long as the RNG dosen't tell anything else.

it is an improvement. it may not be where you want it to be but it is an improvement