The two features mentioned are something that can be found in just about any $5-10 action rpg INDIE game... The only difference here is that none of it is actually collision based so rolling is not so much rolling as it is a period of invulnerability. No, im not trying to impose my standards upon others, im just trying to give some insight into my point of view and how simple and asinine the ancient systems are.

Yes, for me a game like this makes me feel like a bunch of colors running around (thru people) using attacks that dont even look like they hit half the time, but do. Rolling through a an attack as if it was never there, and blocking anything as if it doesn't even matter where the attack comes from, as long as its within my extremely large viewing range it will block. So blocking isnt as much blocking as it is putting up a massive wall the covers my entire body without any weak points.

As long as everyone starts on equal footing, this is.

QFT (sadly)

This has been answered. It is skill based. And that's why it will have an impact.

I understand that you disagree, but as I mentioned above we can find out once and for all if the game is skill based once it launches. Do more skilled players regularly beat less skilled players with equal characters/gear? If yes, then the game is skill based.

You might want more skill, or rather a different type of skill, but there are already games out there for that. Your insistence that a game needs real time aiming and skill shots to be "skill based" seems odd considering that fighting games (Street Fighter, Teken, Super Smash Bros ect) take perhaps the most account of player skill of any genre and lack both mechanics.

The fact that an individual is unimportant in a large battle does not mean combat isn't skill based. Large battles are an aggregation of the skills of many different players. Expecting that one person could change the tide of a battle including hundreds is frankly unrealistic and (IMO) undesirable.

Individual skill will shine more in one on one fights that people get into wandering Cyrodiil while questing, or in small scale fights (2v2, 2v3, 4v4, ect.)

That doesn't mean large scale battles lack skill for everyone but the commander though. Everyone's skilled contribution adds up and the overall more skilled army is going to win. Remember the discussion between Nick Konkle and the ShoddyCast about the Chalamo? Apparently a very small group of players was able to fend off a much much larger group of players: USING SKILL.

People who participated in the Beta cannot talk about that experience in public places like this.

Anyway, I think it would be a big mistake to judge a game that is in Beta based on a very short term experience. It can take several days if not weeks to master the mechanics of a game with rich combat. Player strategies for PvP can develop over even much longer periods of time than that, as in years.

That's without even considering the fact that Betas are often riddled with bugs and that most mechanics are still being polished.

How is the PVP in ESO not skill based? Running around in a group of 4 and taking out 5- 10 enemies at a time requires a lot of skill. playing the ambush game and picking off an enemy player , destroying his trebuache then getting away before his friends can get you takes a lot of skill. This game is by farm more skill dependant than most MMOs. just the fact that you can actively block in this game makes it more skill driven then most MMOs.

This game is taking DAOC's successful PVP system and fine tuning it for todays PVP. people will be PVPing in ESO for many years, especially if it has a progression system like DAOC had that let you keep building and improving your character for years

I have not played the game so i cannot solely say that it is skill based or not. I Theoretically believe it will be. One Thing i do no that this game has that others do not which has not been brought up in this interesting civil debate. (hats off to everyone) Many reasons why most games pvp section of there games are broken because the game is item based. The devs chose to put everything on equal grounds. Including the player made items. This is another way the pvp will be safe in the future.

Player levels go hand in hand with what i am talking about as well. Whether or not there will be a player cap raise in the future i do not know. If they do they better be careful how they raise the stats last thing i want to see is someone strike someone for 150,000 hp and have 900,000 health. If it turns out this way it could hurt the game even more because it is not an item based game.

I think its about balance, again.

I don't want gear to be meaningless. Otherwise people have no incentive to hunt for new gear, upgrade via crafting, ect.

It should give advantages, but slight ones. Because I also don't want gear to be all that matters (like in some MMOs) because that removes player skill.

Overall, I'd say it should be 80% skill and 20% gear for same level characters. I should be able to beat someone with better gear every time if I'm way more skilled. But if we're equal or I'm only slightly better, they should win.

You also have to remember PVP has a huge impact on PVE in this game. Everything that is happening in the PVP zone with bonuses effects you everywhere in your camapaign... every PVE zone. So this is always a huge incentive to be ready to help in PVP in the event of something important happening like one of your Elder Scroll temples being attacked. In most other games PVP is an afterthought that really effects nothing. But in ESO it is very important for you and an your alliance. things like this add an excitement factor and the unknown of what could happen. It also brings unplanned PVP and the "call to arms" in play. And gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do something.

And here we find the proof that the OP is yet another in a long line of My Way is the Right Way and the rest of you are just mewling babies who can in no way truly appreciate my Uber Greatness that is exemplified my long string of victories in the most Manly of Manly competitions, online PvP.

I would say **** ***, but even thought I don't swing by that often anymore, I don't really want to get a another temp ban. Or a perma-ban as I still have hope for this game.

you are thinking that only twitch based combat is considered skill, thats not true.

a game can have lasting impact with or without twitch based mechanics.

PvP can have lasting impact if it is fun, problem solved.

exactly. thats all i keep trying to say. fun comes above everything else. there is a reason why i still consider daoc the best pvp in an mmo ever

No, you LIE!

Agree, people have different play styles, people play for different reasons, the only impact that matters to me is the fun factor. I played a MOBA for a short time, not my cup of tea. I did not go to thier forums and rip the game or the fans that enjoy the game, I have known for along time not all games are for everyone, and I have ran across a few that were not for me.

MMO/RPG's have lasting impact to the players because of the depth and story telling the game play and all the other elements, plus the pvp, depends on what part of the game you enjoy or spend your time in. I for one like a mmo where my toon feels like it lives in the world and not just playing through the world. As much as like to pvp, I still like to to play other aspects of the game, if pvp was all the game offered, I would get bored pretty fast, but that is just me.

the more I read about this the more I think the Op is much more concerned with immediate gratification from personal contribution and less about large scale teamwork over extended campaigns that takes weeks or months to play out.

there were a lot of people who greatly enjoyed what they accomplished as a guild through keep battles way back in daoc and that was totally NOT twitchy game. It was far more static combat than ESO.

It happens through community as opposed to frag count and ladder pvp.

Your right and that is what RvRvR is about, its about the campaign not so much the skirmish. You can run out there and have a tussle with your mates but what it comes down to is taking and holding keeps and such. Trust me if you are that good of a player no matter what side you are on they will figure out who you are and go for you every time. The really great thing about a 3 sided system is there is no ultimate build, when it comes to 20 on 20 or 60 on 60 doesn't matter what build you have what matters is how well your mates play around you and cover each others backs.

I hated that your only exposure to PvP at early levels was oPvP, there wasn't anything structured, nor was there a spelled out place for people to go duel at any level. Whenever I dueled with someone who knew what they were doing, I died in half a second because the only practice I had were people five levels higher than me trolling - they put up a good fight, but for the wrong reasons.

The grind was only ever enjoyable because of the combat, but as soon as the new car smell wore off on the combat, the questing got boring. I think I got 3 or 4 characters to level 30-35, the others around level 20. Trying out each class was a blast, but I could never bring myself to get into a lasting reason to keep going to the end, other than you know the pot at the end of the rainbow.

As for the "pedophilia", I only ever had a problem with either extreme of that debate, but mostly the "ew wtf there's a little kid character, this game is made for pedos" over and over again.

i wish more people thought like you did. when i dont like a game i move on i dont sit in the forums telling everyone they are wrong for thinking they way they do.

Wait, so you're telling me some people don't go on forums for games they hate and just completely bash the game to death? Unheard of.

Alright, first off I did not read all of the replies so some or all of this may have been said already but this thread actually made me create an account to reply as I had been lazy and did not feel like it til now

#1 - Twitch Gaming does not equal skill in all games. FPS games are twitch and oh wait, look at all the hackers or people that will do anything for an advantage including creating packet loss just to "better" themselves. Sorry, im tired of playing twitch based games where its easy to abuse the combat system. Yes there are legit players that are amazing at the twitch combat system, but there is also skill involved in other combat systems within the entire gaming universe and no offense, but it is not our fault if you svck at one and want the entire game to change just because you svck.

#2 - In reference to combat systems like DAoC, WoW and many other MMOs....

In DAoC I played a Scout (Archer class that can also use a sword/shield for those that never played) and the most enjoyable moments playing my scout were doing crazy things Scouts should not be able to do. For instance, Scouts could place points into their shield skill, at a certain point (I cant remember exactly as I played Pre-Atlantis and Darkness Falls, long time ago ) they got a skill called Shield Slam (stuns for a few seconds and deals some dmg). Also I had RR3.8 (at the time) and used those mainly for healing/defensive buffs for my character. Was late to a keep raid, so running solo, along the way got attacked by a Midgard Assassin (what are they called..cant remember, 2h user though so his opener should 1shot me) but I managed to block it as well as his Hunter companions opening shot (would have 1/2 me or 3/4 me pending his build). Now I am alive, full health with a Hunter, his pet and his friendly assassin buddy trying to kill me. I shield slammed the assassin and pin cushioned him to death before stun wore off (.6s per normal bow shot, fastest speed possible iirc). Then proceeded to melee the Hunters wolf pet to death while Intercepting his arrow shots. When the wolf died the lil punk tried to run and shot shot in the back.

Now anyone who has played DAoC in pvp knows a Scout is relatively squishy compared to almost anyone else wearing leather armor (medium-low as DAoC had 4 armor types). The only reason I survived is A. Instead of being a fool and running around with my bow out, I had my sword and shield out instead. B. My Realm Rank points went into defensive stats and skills to keep me alive. C. I used my skills properly and did not panic. In 99% of MMOs anytime its 1stealther vs 2stealthers the 1 has a 95% of dying and a 5% of survival when it is the one being ambushed.

So based on OP logic, I won because I had better macros when in point I almost 100% refrain from macros because they always get broken in patches and it annoys me. Think the only Macros I had were to switch between my weapons.

Next example of why "skill ceilings" are higher than your average moron thinks.

World of Warcraft - Rogue - Raid Ready (Basic Dungeon gear with a pair of gloves from Molten Core...ya were talking old WoW, just around the release of Battlegrounds).

Me Vs Warrior (He was geared and reputed the 2nd best warrior for Horde on my server, his guild had cleared MC repeatedly), Shaman (no clue) and another Rogue.

I win. I was ambushing to defend Flag. I Sapped the Warrior while stealthed then proceeded to kill the Shaman and Rogue with Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush. Bandaged myself for heals, went to work on the warrior and turned him into a corpse just as well as the other two.

See mister OP...there is this thing called....Skill. It isnt just about aiming, timing perfectly to dodge an attack while landing your own or being at the right place at the right time. Skill is knowing EVERYTHING that is happening and playing out the situation before it actually happens so you can react and use YOUR skills at the correct time and place.

Just to clarify things me and these same three went head to head outside the Battleground (we were outside of Orgrimmar with a large crowd of both Alliance and Horde watching) and I still beat all 3 of them. I beat them 8 times out of 10 matches. Thats 24 kills to 2 deaths. A K:D any FPSer would love at the end of a match.

#3 - Now to be a little nice to the OP...Ya I can understand why you want a different combat system for pvp. The game turns into a button mash or who has better macros or this that and some other....Heres the thing....TESO has 5 active skills at one time and the only way to change them in combat is to change to your secondary weapon loadout which carries over your secondary hotbar (atleast thats how I understand it, so if im wrong, someone correct me please). So assuming along the lines of having 10 active skills at any given time, the devs seem to want to limit us in this regard so we cannot have like 10 classes worth of skills on 12 different hotbars lining our screens. So I would also assume they will limit Macro capacity to also be in line with this thinking. Otherwise its totally meaningless to limit the number of hotbars and hotkeys.

Now after degrading the OP, self back patting and hopefully shining a little light for the OP...ill go back to my forum creeping ways.

Yeah I laid out the whole synergy argument earlier. In the solo TES games (specifically Morrowind up) the general direction the developers took the series was that player skills (controls to move the character and have the character act) had corollary character skills in that success of the player in doing these skills resulted in the character skills going up. Examples ...

Marksmanship: The player uses his skills at the controls of the game to land an arrow on a target. If successful then that ratchets up the character's skill.

Blocking: The more the player controls the character to block the more the skill increases.

Lockpicking: (at least in vanilla) the player's skill at picking a lock successfully results in the character's skill increasing.

In Oblivion even jumping around will build Acrobatics.

The result of the character skill increases was simply to make the future game formulations kinder and easier to use the skill for the player - or cause greater effect than at lower levels. I'm not saying the Oblivion ratios were the best, but of the three games it was the probably the best. Still I never played without mods that slowed this progress down greatly. This combined effect is a synergistic effect wherein both the player and character combine to a greater experience (to get all mystical about it). The player then wears the character like a glove. Role playing then is only limited by the natural impulses of the player and the limits of the skills set.

In TES solo games it is the skills that are the primary stats.

Then take TESO where an argument is being put forth that rolling is an introduction of player skill ... but it is not a synergistic skill in that doing it does not seem (haven't read of anyone who has documented this either) to have any impact on the character's skill set. This is then a divorced skill set. A harsh and unfair critique of this is that this is a back-door for MMO players to game the system, but if rolling does result in fatigue burn then I'd say it is not so gamey. The player has his skill set and the character another and they kind of overlap. so ... yeah. I'm on the fence about blocking - I need to look at that.

This is why calling Oblivion/Skyrim twitch games is kind of not getting it right at all. They are player skill/character skill synergistic with the strategy based on watching stats, footing (due to dynamic non-tabbed targeting), timing blows (with fluid animations), and pacing of the player to get the character through an encounter. Twitch games (to me) usually result in an instinctive twitch maneuver and the challenge is for the most part over.

Anyone who has spent time with playing the solo games modded and really looking at the nuts and bolts of these mechanics are going to see what TESO is not - very quickly. It seems the number one response to this kind of statement is to say "well this is an MMO so just svck it up" or to do what you have done and bring in any old game and describe what is wrong with them. I see no reason to bring in comparison with games outside of the domain of the two games in question here: TES solo games and TESO the MMO.

Of what value is bringing in call of duty, or diablo, or super smash brothers? I can see the value in mentioning Mount and Blade Warband because it also has a synergistic skill system (though there is point buy system) and it is multiplayer. The reason that I and others are complaining about this lack of immediacy in game play is because we are used to the intellectual property of TES to provide an experience. An experience that is being watered down by MMO mechanics.

Does that explain it better?

Read more about "finesse" system before you start ranting. Also theres co-op abilities. Its not just brainless key-pressing alone.

Yeah... how do those work again?

I dont remember anymore.. but there should be alot of info on YouTube and everywhere.

Hmm, dude can put a trap on the ground and magic user can put it on fire and its fire-trap.

My understanding is that it works similarly in ESO.

For what its worth, both Skyrim and Oblivion had an unlockable dodge roll. In neither of the games could the skill be increased.

ESO still has the synergy you're talking about with Bows, Swords, Shields, Staves, and Magic though. So I guess I don't see the difference.