thats not entirely true

The fast action paced games i have mention involve "teamplay", "cooperation", "character build templates"

They just allow the individual player to have a bigger impact on the overall outcome rather than one guy in the commander role having (virtually robots) do his bidding in an near-automated fashion, ill rehash my previous post

The command, for example, can be to shuffle left throw spears.

-In a game with the ESO system all the spears will hit, which means this is a completely automated, non-skill based attack.

- In a skill shot game, the spears serve as a chance for players to show off their practice and possibly weaken some shields or actually kill (in a very rare circumstance)

Another command would be to flank left.

- In an ESO game this would rarely be necessary but when executed will obviously involve the execution of (hopefully) stun attacks to allow the front party to move in. Of course the stuns are guranteed.

-In a skill shot game, this could give a major opening to the flanking force to essentially wipe out half the opposing force, but defenders can still defend if they are talented multi taskers who can delay two enemys at once. There is even a chance of retreat with minimal losses

Or of course, the retreat command

-In an ESO game players will press Tab+Stun/slow and run away

-In a skill shot game, sacrifices will be made and archers will need to slow melee attackers while the main force retreats

Who says MMORPG cannot have fast paced combat? Tradition? The market?

Folks who think that rpg means only character skill?

the TES series changed from purely character skill to a synergy between character and player skill. That is why there is this debate. Folks who want TESO to be traditional MMO are just not respecting the direction the solo games have gone and why players of these games are disappointed.

So you are trying to tell me that your skillbased games are not played in an "automated fashion"?!

Do you actually believe that you're self?





It's close enough. There are dodge skills in other "old schoole MMORPG's"

The name itself.

Nobody stopes you from creating a MMOFPS or a MMO-Hack'n'Slay or a MMO-what-ever-you-want.
Nobody stopes you from adding RPG-Elements to all of those either.

Those might be good games, but never ever are they going to be MMORPG's.

Thats due to the fact that an RPG is based on character development rather than player conditioning.

No sir. This is only the case with MMO versions of RPG.

As as been outlined in other posts - the solo TES games now have a synergy of player and character skill. I can think of other rpg titles that do as well Gothic 3 ... heck even witcher (though not a lot).

It is the biased point of view that rpg means only character skill. I could easily make an argument that if we take it back down to pen and paper games that player participation in their role and limited by the rules of the game and their character development is still more involved than most MMORPG.

It is the limits of the game mechanics of a decade and a half ago that laid out the so called 'rules of what constitute an MMORPG. Even those who state that Morrowind was the truest RPG cannot deny that there was leanings toward player skill and that the developers went fully in that direction in the next game.

So tradition then. Got it. Reject it. thanks.

They should redesign the combat to mimic that of Dark Souls, everyone happy. Oh, especially the lack of comprehensible aiming with the crossbow.

instead of them redesigning the combat at this stage maybe players can enjoy the product they made or find a different game? people always ask for change them complain when they get it because tis not like this or that

No you have to keep aiming at them. If they are just on screen you won't hit anything. In soft targeting you have to keep your crosshair on the target. If they made projectile non heat seeking (the only thing I feel needs changed) you wouldn't even notice the soft locking. If you try and play it like a tab target game you will not be playing to your full potential at all.

I'm pretty sure that hasn't been true for nearly 20 years. I can't think of a single computer game that I'd consider much of an RPG since the early 90s, and certainly not anything with Elder Scrolls in the title. Those are action/exploration fantasy games. RPGs require a lot more interaction and a lot more consequence for decisions.

That's basically the point I was making.

Skill-based does not equal skill shots.

You don't need skill shots for the combat to be based on skill. See GW2 for example. The strategic use of skills in that game, especially your heal, as well as the success with which you dodge and interrupt your opponents, makes all the difference. You can have two players with equal characters, but one player is much more skilled, and the less skilled player will get slaughtered every time.

Also, you're flat out wrong about sustainable PvP. See DAoC which is still actively played by die hard fans, despite being majorly out dated.

ESO has skill based combat. The importance of blocking, dodging, interrupting, managing resources, knowing when to use heavy/light attacks, and successfully combining skills that synergize well together, is what makes it skill based.

Its not even a little bit true.

This game has something of a marriage between tab-targeting and FPS aiming mechanics. You have to be aiming at your target at all times to hit them. The tab "soft lock" feature is only used to pick people out of a group when there are too many players on screen.

Because of this, dodge rolls, line of sight tricks, and general movement actually play a role in fights in ways the do not in traditional MMOs.

Also, I'd like to CHIMe in on this conversation about player skill versus character skill.

I agree that a mix of both makes for the best game play. If that weren't true, then why are games like Halo, COD, and Battlefield all adding in limited forms of character progression (in the form of unlockable perks, weapons, and gear.)

Rolls and line of sight tricks...

Los tricks have been around since ultima online, its pretty traditional....

Rolls are completely biased towards players with DoTS and Aoe spam, it really does a number on players who count on a big swing/spell though

Both things should never be taken as a serious addition to gameplay, its like me stating that reading 21304 words in elementary school was a major improvement over the average student, no one cares.

Honestly if you are content with that, you are either a result of acute marketing or you have low standards.

My impression is because there is a contingency who hold onto the notion that true rpg has a strong base in MMOs. These same folks do not like player skill playing a part and want it to be more 'purist.' Twitch to them is meant as an insult.

When others complain that there is not enough player skill they are satisfied and potentially filled with notions that of some rpg superiority. I find this more than silly because it seems to me the games that get held up as being true rpg often have more tell tale signs that the developers couldn't add more player skill components due to other reasons. With MMORPG games though this becomes tradition and what people are used to - since these games have a fan base that expects less they get catered to.

As for your impressions that things like dodge roll and blocking offer that in this game. Perhaps I'm just not getting their mechanics, but I will say that the animations for them seemed sluggish and the transitions awkward. As such they don't have the same feel as true player skill. Further, these are not also character skills. This means no synergy between the character skill and the player skill. The player has his set of skills and the character another. In Oblivion/Skyrim ... some in M & B ... things like swordsman ship are linked skills. The more practiced by the player the more the character grows in power. The player skill is recorded by the character skill. Hand in glove.

Not being a beta nazi or anything but can we talk about experiences in beta, that is if we were even in a beta ........ if that was the case and i was in a beta i would love to express my opinion, if that was possible that is....

If one was in beta, one would be wise not to discuss it beyond saying one was in the beta.

The first rule of beta club....

Why did you ignore over half my examples of player skill...? You mentioned rolls and LoS. I mentioned rolls, LoS, real time blocking, interrupts, resource management, strategic use of light/heavy attacks, and making smart skill choices. Many of those things exist in other MMOs (which goes to show that all MMO combat takes SOME skill.) Probably none of them are entirely unique to MMOs (but then again, neither is FPS aiming.) But the specific combination in ESO can still be simultaneously unique, fun, and skill based.

Also, please don't be rude to me. I think I was pretty polite in my post. I don't have low standards and I'm not a pawn of marketing. What I do have is a different opinion than you. But we can be friends nonetheless.

Bolded part is important. I think this is true of a lot of people. Despite the fact that individually none of their mechanics are unique, overall the system is.

Keeping in mind that if you played Beta you can't use that experience to make arguments in this thread, I would suggest that everyone waits and tries the system for a good period of time (rather than just for a few days) prior to making up their mind about it.

Back in the day, I used to play Golden Eye a lot on my N64. I liked the one-stick method of moving and aiming. Then Halo came out. It was my first introduction to using two sticks in a shooter. I hated it. I didn't understand the system and it felt clunky. Now, I could never imagine going back to one stick. Two sticks is so obviously superior.

I think the same thing is going on for some people with ESO combat. They don't get it, but once they do, most will like it.

Aren't going to win many believers like that..if you're trying to convince people, maybe acting arrogant isn't the best way?

Because of the Skinner-Box-Thingy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
Maybe you wouldn't believe it but RPG-Elements have the same addicting principle as a Las Vegas slot machine.

How am I supposed to respond to that???

Thank you for educating me on what is important in what I wrote. Totally just gloss over my whole argument about player skill and character skill working in a synergistic/complimentary manner as they increasingly do in the solo play titles. Focus instead on controls. I play with a keyboard whether I play morrowind or TESO.

The trees of the forest -- none are unique, but the forest is overall very unique -- right. Followed by rules of what I can base arguments on. ... Moving on ...

This is very very true. Any behavior that illicits brain change can be addictive. This is so apparent with video games and MMOs in particular and developers have taken this D&D power leveling scheme to the extreme degrees. This is why the quests are so carbon copy in most of these games - people are more concerned with upping their character. Well addiction is a complex problem ... lack of emotion regulation skills play a huge component. Life is tough ... complex. Games are simple - easy to get incremental success and the feeling of getting something done. Addiction is in the person - not the drug, not the slot machine, not the game.

RPG then is passed off as staying within the rules of their character class (but actually still just power playing - but with rules).

Or, shocking though it might be, someone else has standards different from yours.

Personal preferences. Everyone has them. Mine are most certainly not yours.

If your standards are so high, and you must have the most elite of the elite of the elite so most things don't meet your standards, you might want to look for another game that can meet those standards, instead of being condescending and dismissive to anyone that doesn't agree with you.

I totally believe it. That's pretty much the whole point I was making, just substantiated. A mix of both is best.

Sorry to have offended you. Certainly wasn't my intent. I didn't mean to tell you personally what was important in your argument. I was making my own argument to the thread as a whole. Personally, I feel that a lot of people just don't get their system yet but that they will once they get their hands on it.

As for "rules of what I can base arguments on" I didn't come up with those. Those come from the non-disclosure agreement signed by all Beta participants.

As for your synergy argument, I'm afraid I just don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it a bit more to me?

For me, ESO seems to have a good mix of both player skill and character skill. Characters advance in skill like in any RPG/MMO/TES game. This advancement is based on which skills you use, according to the developers. We know it isn't exactly like other TES games, since you have experience, but they've said it functionally works similar. Skills that you use more level up more: that sounds like synergy to me. Its exactly what you said you liked about other TES games. Even if its different in ESO, they've said its similar. Until their new information on character progression comes out (hopefully this week) we can't actually know how different/similar it is.

As for player skill, I think I've already put forth enough arguments for why I think it exists in this game. I haven't seen you take issue with them (but maybe I missed it?).

Thankfully, whether player skill is involved is actually an empirical and testable fact, not just an opinion. Once the game releases, we could take two characters that are built exactly the same way, but with two players of varying skill controlling them, and have them fight. If the better player wins the vast majority of the time, then player skill is involved.

This is the argument I always use when people bash Super Smash Brothers, for example. I've heard people say that the game is random, silly, and devoid of skill. And yet, people have tournaments in that game with certain players clearly emerging as more skilled. I've got a friend who is simply better than me at the game and he beats me 49 times out of 50. That means skill is involved or it wouldn't be so far away from chance.

If the same can be said of ESO, than it has skill based combat (dueling would be a great way to test this, if they add it.)

PS.

Super Smash brothers does not have skill shots or real time FPS aiming.

I'm not here to convince people, im just trying to figure out a legitimate reason as to how the pvp in this game is going to have any lasting impact on its playerbase if its not skill based.

Not everyone can be the commander, who tells everyone to shoot homing missile x at target y. The gent who thinks LoS, Rolling, (Worthless) blocking is going to find out real quick that none of that stuff is going to matter in the zergs that make things happen. I have been in some of the best guilds around, many of which run on strict military chain of command. In the end the individual has very little effect on the outcome of the battle other than pressing 3 buttons continuously to fulfill the orders given, many times players will die without even realizing what they did wrong other than standing in an AOE spam.

Rolling, blocking, resource management, none of that has ever mattered in large scale battles, everyone just rolls around to get away (hilarious), blocks everything as if its hard to do in a game where your shield is impenetrable, ect..

People have already been complaining about the so called "hook" that a certain class has, claiming the hook pulls every-time without fail, like a death knight in WoW

Your shield is not impenetrable, nor can you block for ever as blocking uses stamina. You also can't just roll around as that uses stamina.

All PvP is skill based.

peace