Yep, that is a reasonable echo to those who are calling me a lightweight, who are calling me naive and not smart enough to acknowledge Houses's visions, while trying to sell me thouroughly evil and disgusting actions as good deeds in the big picture....
Yes, I see people who apparently fell victim to Houses' manipulative nature, not realizing they have become a mere instrument to achieve his will, sorry
You really think there's no alternative, to Houses' ice cold vision for the Mojave? Poor Mojave indeed.
Nope, I'm convinced my Courier is the better way to go. He might not end up enabling interstellar travel, but at least, he's still got a heart...

See, when you just butcher my posts, it sounds like thats all I said, all I am saying is, your arguments are the same 'my way', but honestly, you cant bring 'independant vegas' to this argument since assuming you can rule Vegas (I firmly believe yes man will take power from you), it's up to the individual poster, when that is not what this thread is about. My criticism on you as a leader isnt 'IF IT AINT HOUSE IT'S WRONG', my questioning of your idea of leadership is if you truly think you could run things efficiently or if people would quickly oust you out of office. Read my last post, since I feel you only read that line, thats what I have to say about your leadership.

Who knows that? I'm not a foreteller, so it's of course unclear how well the leadership of my Courier is going to be.
But, from what I've seen from the other factions in the game, he seems like the best bet, to me at least.
And why not? He's proven himself as a proficient diplomat many times, he's pretty intelligent with profound knowledge in many fields, and most importantly, he really cares for the people of this wasteland.
Will he succeed in the long run? Who knows?

-What House is doing is exploiting free will. Noone HAS to go to the strip. Noone HAS to gamble or drink. Hsu and Hanlon might blame House for presenting their troops with this option but blaming House is akin to blaming dolls for teen pregnancy. As for established interests... They might not like it but the benifits still outweight the downside. And thats assuming that House has any aspirations to dabble in NCR politics. I propose he doesnt give a flying [censored] about NCR politics as long as he is left to his own visions. House sprung no traps. He just let the fools play themselves. House gave them no reason because he didnt give a rats bumbhole, he just wanted to be left alone. The assasination attempt is foolish, shortsighted and ignorant.



- Again. Pride doesnt play into it. House wouldn't ask to be considered an equal. He would ask to be left alone with his visions. That Caesar cant accept that is HIS pride. Not Houses.



-Caesar blends the worst of Spartan and roman culture. What the hell is a New rome going to do him when he has no benefits and no "citizenship of rome" to dangle infront of potential allies? And with Caesars disdain for technology (wich isn't and never was a roman trait) Vegas would fall into ruin fast because there would be no skilled help to repair or renovate. House could easily pursue his dream from within caesars empire. Since Caesar discards all tech he could offload it at House. Vegas could become the Officers R&R city... where the officers dumped their cash. And if Caesar wasn't so blinded he would realize that having House bleed funds from the NCR is a good idea. Especially if he could tax that bleed. Even more so in a situation where he is stretched thin as it is. Servitude isnt really a concept here. House wouldn't care if he was just left alone to pursue his vison for vegas.


-God kings still have to accept that there are benefits to city states. They did in Europe. The city states were places where kings could levy taxes or borrow money. Sure declaring war and trying to annex city states happened all the time but it cost those god-kings dearly. And quite a few of those city states still exist to this day. That Caesar doesn't trust House is more of his own paranoia than a well founded logical deduction. He doesn't have a clue about house and his motivations. He just sees House as an extension of the NCR. New Vegas is unique sure. But it would fall into ruin because Caesar doesn't want tech or skilled help. How the hell are you going to keep Vegas if you have no skilled help? No engineers, no architects? Caesars "legacy" would be that he took something that was relatively unscathed and let it fall into disrepair and ruin just like all other ruins in the wasteland. That Caesar is too thick and ignorant to realize this correlates very well with his ignorant and perverse mix of spartan and roman cultural traits. Vegas might be his dream.... but its a dream of folly and it will end up being just real-estate, as CL goes on to find a new glitzy city that they can call New rome, and let fall into ruin.


-People abandon their dreams for money all the time. People want to be instant billionaires but don't really know what they will do with that money aside from buying stuff. House wants to build. Caesar wants a return to a tech free time... an ignorant proposal. But wars are won by finance. If you don't have the funds to equip your troops it doesnt matter how many troops you have. Caesar might not want to suffer an equal. House doesn't care what anyone thinks of him as long as he can pursue his dream. If Caeser could accept that he would have a formidable ally. But no. He wants New Vegas as a capital but hasn't really got a clue what he will use vegas for or how to maintain it except it being a nice piece of realestate.

The Legion and the NCR do not undestand house, do not aspire to do so, and they fear what they do not undestand. They covet his city but has no clue how to govern it once they get it. A vegas with no gambling would fall into disrepair and ruin. A vegas where most of the funds were channeled away to NCR fatcats would stagnate.

- Napoleon was loved by his men but he didn't give a rats backside about them. He was great at motivating them though. Washington owned slaves. Lincoln... I don't know. Peter the greats feat is disputed at best. There is only one source and people have allways written such stories about their leaders.

House wouldn't bother... there I agree. Because there would be no benefit to him or his plan. I still dont think that disqualifies him.

Napoleon was great at motivating his men b/c they thought he empathized with them. He also did, early in his career, before he was commander of the entire army and then all of France. He still cared a lot about the French people - if not the men in its army.

Washington owned slaved, yes. But so what? You’re the one going on and on about ‘moral grayness.’ He was still all-in-all a pretty empathetic guy. He devoted most of his life in service of what he saw as the ideals of freedom. He also freed all of his slaves in his will and abdicated power when he thought it was time.

History can be used to argue either side. The problem with your ‘mathematical-ethical’ House is that he doesn’t have perfect information. No one in the real world does. Thus, his calculations are just as likely to warped and twisted by his own limited perception as any other man. He is a man who fancies himself a god – one of an endless procession of men to do so - and a type of man I prefer to have little to do with. :bowdown:

EDIT: Thanks for the tid-bit on Peter the Great, Faub. I didn’t know the account was disputed.

- Napoleon cared for his vision of France with himself as an emperor. That was where his empathy lay.

Washingtons ideas of Freedom clash eerily with the concept of slavery. Sure in general he was likely an agreeable man, but the hypocracy remains. "Freedom for all... except those brown people I own."

House doesnt have perfect information, granted. But he has done rather well without it. The odds of him making it so far are staggering. And if his calculations were warped and twisted, they would not have landed him where he is. He doesnt fancy himself a god. He fancies himself a better man, and the only man capable of running vegas. I'd say that despite his arrogance he isn't far off the mark. His trackrecord is a powerfull indicater of what he can accomplish. That trackrecord is something to learn from. And I would listen and learn whilst trying to get vegas and the region up and running to pre war standarts and beyond. Assuming that I could do better would be folly. My ingame toon doesn't have a masters in pol sci and governance. He would have to learn and with House as a tutor that learning would come fast. Even with a masters I would still have alot to learn from House. I prefer to work places and with people that I can learn from. House is simply the best bet for me. Vegas would be the place I could start a family and create a dynasty of my own, perhaps exporting the Vegas model to some other part of the US. And when the time came I would pursue the techno-lichdom that House can offer. House is where the future lies. Not with the stagnant NCR or the retro-romanticized ignorant notions of Caesar.

This thread will probably be closed soon old friend. Do invite me to the next roundtable on Mr. House

Washington had more complex views on slavery than you have indicated. It wasn’t easy for him to simply free them – the laws of Virginia were setup so that it was only feasible to do so after his death – which he did. Also, in the constitution, the issue of slavery was supposed to be revisited in 1808 - although that never happened – many of the men of his generation did see it as an evil that would soon be undone.

My “toon” ( I’ve never heard of “toon” before) had speech skill of 100, science of 100, and barter of 100, so I’d think he’d make a good politician.

Good debate as always Faub.

Haha... Welll That is a good politicians "Build". It resembels my own. And yes. Its allways a pleasure to discuss with You.

Oh yes he can. He just needs proof before he can enter.
As long as there is no clear evidence the agreement states that House can't burst in with his Securitrons. I'm surprised the tribes managed to drive such a contract.


Though true, that's always easy to say for the person not effected and changes quickly when things hit home.


I believe people are mistaken on this one. Even if they were willing to leave House and his city alone, he wouldn't want them around. He did not sign that treaty because he hoped the NCR would become a kindly helper. He doesn't have his precious ring chip yet, so he uses the treaty to keep them at bay and let's them do the defending against the Legion.


Does it ease your mind to make them out as conspirators and traitors, after he wipes them out. Because I certainly wouldn't describe that agreement they have with the NCR as an alliance.
Freeside sees a increase in violence against NCR citizens and especially refugees (asylum seekers?). You get the task to ease the violence. You either promise more food and water in exchange for The Kings doing something about the violence or you call in a personal favor or you bully them into it. All of a sudden there's an alliance between the two groups?

House outright kills them for not being petty thugs.


At the same time a lot of House supporters claim the NCR is being a backstabbing, EEEville commie for killing poor Mr. House. It's not like he was planning to kick them when they were down.
Yet killing the Brotherhood is the right thing to do.
The claim of an assault on Vegas is a little far-fetched to be honest. Their numbers in the Mojave certainly aren't up to it and I suspect even Casdin wouldn't risk it if he was in charge. The Brotherhood out west is preoccupied and I doubt they'd sent an army to the Mojave to assault Vegas.
They become quite the nuisance on the road, though. Honestly if he had a bit of patience the problem would solve itself or be in an opportunity to weaken and attack them before they ever got anywhere near attacking Vegas after they started causing trouble.


We need to kill those civilians. KILL THOSE REFUGEES. How dare they come into our town looking for a place to stay after war and raiders drove them off.
You are seriously misinterpreting that quest, I did not expect that from you.


No, relieve effort is mostly for their own citizens. Hsu however genuinely seems willing to help the locals if given the chance and comes of as a very reasonable man.


Meh, the Mojave seems like a reasonable place and 200 years after the war things aren't as hopeless as you paint it to be.
Also what's he going to do to repair it. Appearify some pre-war technology for all to use left and right or built spaceships and move somewhere else. Or does he help the people rebuild by teaching them agricultural techniques and given medical care and education (Oh wait...)?
Not saying he's evil or that, but people tend to over glorify the things he can and will do.


This is off course wishful thinking. The premise of the game couldn't exist without their mutual unwillingness to work together.
The blame is always put squarely with the NCR in such "what if" scenarios, isn't it. I think people are painting House in a to benevolent picture.


No the assassination attempt is a reaction to thing House has planned for the NCR after they got rid of the Legion.

-I don't see this as wishfull thinking at all. Especially since you present no evidence what so ever to support your claim. What you present is an opinion and an unfounded one.


-The NCR hasn't got a bastard clue about what House plans. At best they have vague suspicions. The assasination attempt is a political hit. Pure and simple. The word "Re-action" presumes that some action was taken against them first. No such action is taken.

The NCR couldnt afford to leave house in power, with his securitrons and his ambition they knew it was only a matter of time before house betrayed them. House had every chance to work with the NCR but he refused. That made him their enemy

- So its "With us or against us"? Really? Thats one hell of a stupid way of making enemies fast.

NCR need new vegas and house refused to work with them. He locks himself in his little hide out plotting and scheming. The NCR would be stupid to leave such a man behind them while fighting the legion. He had his chance with 2 ambassadors but when he rejected them, he should have expected nothing else

- NCR "Needs"? LOL.... thats nice. Thats colonialism to top of ignorance. Why should House work with them? They have the power from Hoover. They have neutral ground in vegas. Why on earth should House just fold and hand over vegas? The only reason the NCR wants vegas is so that they, not house, can reap the caps. They want the gold and when house doesnt want to share they try to kill him. Thats nice. That story will run far as a diplomatic presedent. From that point on, most independants will fight NCR tooth and nail because once NCR covents something they will not stop till they own it. So the second a NCR diplomat shows up and starts talking about "co-operation" and "Working together" most smart people will start arming themselves to the teeth and tell the diplomat that he can go home and tell his superiors that they have outstayed their welcome.

The NCR dosnt like leaving house alive and for good reason. Leave a man as capable and powerful as house at youre back while you fight CL is a bad idea. He made no contact with the NCR increasing their suspisions. And they were right because house was scheming against the NCR and legion for control. The NCR arnt stupid they know house with his seclusion, and his securitrons and his intelligence is a dangerous man who was probably working against the NCR and its stupid to leave a dangerous man alive while busy with other matters. House should have had at least met with the diplomats instead of just turning them away arrogantly.What are the NCR supposed to think?

- So they kill what they do not undestand. How very nice and human. He did make contact with the NCR, signed a deal and there it ended. That the NCR keeps sending diplomats is for one reason only: To renegotiate the deal. Something House hase zero interest in.

They have no proof only suspicions. Why would house work against the interests of NCR? He is milking them for their caps. He has very little interest in confrontation. That he goes against them is simply because they want to rob him of his independence. They want to turn Vegas into yet another vassal. He fights back and does so in a way that causes the least amount of casulties and collatteral damage.

The NCR should think: "We have power, neutral ground, and a potential ally who has a lot of robotic muscle. Lets let sleeping dogs lie". If the NCR takes over Vegas that sets a crap presedence that will make other independents shun the NCR like the plague. If House takes over, the NCR is embarrased and emasculated. The NCR actions are stupid and shortshighted. But very human.

"Scheming for control"? He saved Vegas from nukes, he rebuilt it, therefore he owns it. Then comes the NCR with their army. They meet the Three Families and the securitrons at the Hoover Dam and the Legion on the other side of the Colorado. The only reason they didn't slaughter them all was the Legion. Then House makes a deal with them and they get the Hoover Dam, but still they want more. House only wants to be left alone.

How does that work. Builders repair their house so now they own it? Fireman save youre house so know they own it? And how does house want to be left alone? He upgrades the securitrons, and tries to take control of the Mojave. Like it or not he is scheming for control.

House isnt a sleeping dog, he is a highly dangerous very powerful man who wants control of the mojave

-It works like this. Before house vegas was nothing. There was a vault and 3 tribes in feud with eachother. After House there was prosperity, cvilisation and renovation at a speed and style unpresidented in the wasteland. House rebuilt and refurbished vegas. House owns vegas because it would be nothing without him.

House doesn't give a [censored]e about the mohave. He cares about Vegas. Period. He doesn't mention expansionist motives even once. He does however mention more than once that Vegas is his and his dream. Vegas alone.

Then why does he try to take control of the Mojave? Dont deny it, if you play for Mr house you find the NCR and legion severly weakened and house and his securitrons ruling the Mojave. He says Vegas is his dream but he takes the Mojave aswell. The number of securitrons used, the NCR being kicked out the dam, he takes control.

-House takes the dam because it provides power to the strip. It also provides him with political leverage over the NCR. Thats the only part of the mohave he goes for. The rest of the mohave matters nothing to him. So he doesnt try to take controll of the mohave. At all. You are wrong. Again.

This thing is now over 200 posts... can the thread be left to die? Let's hope!

-This thread now has a life of its own.And the fanbois of house will never go away... we just go to hell and regroup,