What about the thing he asks you to do at the Sub Station? It's a justified action though, because he knows the NCR is betraying him..

yeah, there's always an excuse why he just can't pursue his ideals right now, huh?
you fail to get right. it's true that he has a personal distaste for a lot things the families are doing, they are uncivilized tribal to him.
still, you vastly overestimate his moral idealism




i suppose, with that you'd also like to explain why he sends you on a slaughtering mission into the bos bunker? :hubbahubba:



i brought that up to make clear, that he is not reluctant about any 'necessary' measure to achieve his targets



first and for all, he wants to save himself.



srsly, actually start measuring people by their deeds, not by their words, you cuddly, easy to manipulate thing

House wiped out the kings... hardly the act of a man who cares about people. The kings were all about personal liberty and house had them wiped out? Not cool

To everyone who calls the NCR backstabbers, what do you expect? NCR wanted to make contact with house and house threw their invitation in thier face, two ambassadors tried and failed to make contact and plotted against the NCR. He wouldnt have killed any, but he would have weakened their position in the Mojave. The NCR would have been stupid not to have him assasinated. It was a cold decision, but neccesary.

And houses empathy disturbes me. The NCR and legion can be heartless but i think NCR is better than house. Think about it, with the NCR you have a chance to ally with the Brotherhood. Not with house. Would house have made the bitersprings refugee camp? No doubt, he would have wiped out every great khan civilian and soldier for the "greater good" He would have seen them as a waste of recourses. NCR can make an alliance with the kings to help freeside. House sees that as a threat and has them wiped out. The faction that preaches self liberty and respect is wiped out by a man who says he likes mankind To be a good leader, you need intelligence, the ability to make cold decisions but you also need to have some empathy. How many innocents would house have killed for the "greater good"?

House is in the grey, but i think he edges closer to being a monster than not.

The Kings arent always wiped out. Only if you help them ally with the NCR, who are essentially foreign invaders of the New Vegas region.


You're right, he does show disinterest in making any further treaties. The reason? Because House knows even if he did hand Vegas to them, he'd be pushed out of the picture anyway, so he may as well delay them instead of invite the killer into his home, a full set of knives laying out saying 'come, kill me'. Also, how can you justify the NCR killing House as cold and neccasary, yet House eliminating The Brotherhood, an enemy who would take countless lives of innocents if and undoubtedly when they launched their assault on Vegas.


The NCR doesnt use high end technology like House does.


WELLLLL, considering the NCR pretty much played slaughter do to their own incompetence, I'd say the NCR already did the 'kill great khan civilian and soldier' pert. :spotted owl:


They arent murdered for the relief effort, they are murdered because what they are doing, the NCR isn't doing out of the kindness of their hearts, they do it because it would give the NCR a foothold in Vegas, a foothold built on deciet, hence I encourage the Kings to go to war. NCR needs to stay out of Vegas as far as I'm concerned.


That's coincidentally how I feel about NCR. To each their own.

I actually wanted to throw in some agruments against him, but then I remembered that you are on this forum

I will go down fightin as a House fan boy :disguise:

I didnt like Mr. House at first because I was all OOH-RAH NCR! but after hearing him out I think he has the best plans for the area, unlike General Oliver, who creates more trouble in the Mojave than he puts down, and Caesar's doomed slave empire. He's actually the only one with a plan, really.

How exactly is that backstabbing? If I remember correctly, it is entirely possible to tell House you stopped working for him as soon as you enter the lucky 38 for the first time.

-I did lol IRL. Too true.

Not really, it's basically if he does the NCR will kill him. Once the fight in the Mojave is over he's free to continue...it's not an unfounded excuse, it's a pretty fair one considering one of the first things the NCR has you do is murder him...




Done that, lots of times. Before you go "haha failed by your own argument!!!" I came to it impartial, in fact I was opting for independent. I came to everyone neutral. The BoS are [censored]s.

Quick summary of the last few pages on BoS: they're not the guys from FO3, they're narcissistic murderers and thieves who will do anything to possess technology, especially if it can be used as a weapon. The Lucky 38 is basically one big weapon. Between the securitrons and it's own defenses it's like a giant [censored] for the BoS. They must go and touch it. When this occurs, they kill people, house won't take it lying down (well...ok) and nor will the Kings. Most of the Strip would be destroyed, the securitrons would be wiped out or captured by the BoS and used as their weapons. The casinos would be stripped down to ensure no tech was hidden, the FotA would be well investigated (they have tech, after all) and New Vegas would essentially be destroyed.

But of course, pre emptive strikes are evil in every single case. Ever.
No, they're not. Pre emptive strikes are an ingrained part of warfare, if, in a contested area, you have an enemy who has been weakened by a third party it is a logical and militarily sound move to attack them while they are weakened, kicking them while they are down if you want. Especially if said enemy is power armour clad (look at the Enclave siding with Legion ending, if Caesar is killed and Lanius takes control he sends the Legion to kill the remnants, who basically [censored] them up big time without taking any losses (I think it's scores of Legionnaires killed with no loss, basically the same as if Lanius takes on the Boomers, but he never wins. They're more powerful than artillery guns. No joke.)
The BoS are incredibly dangerous, they're tribals with delusions of superiority, they will take any technology which can be used as a weapon to stop other people using it...
than...
they use it...

Yeah, that's the short one.




No, he isn't, making him one of the few who gets anything done, in itself not necessarily a good thing. However if the goals are good then there's minor issue (the only major problem comes from the possibility of overlooking important details, single mindedness. House exhibits some signs, difficult to dissuade from goals but only minor signs).



No he doesn't. If he wanted to save himself he'd have [censored] off at the start rather than setting up in the middle of a crazy busy area. He had the money and power to make a fortress, instead he deigned to try and save the entirety of the Vegas area, something he almost pulled off, he still stopped it from being utterly destroyed.
I measured them all by their deeds, that was the focal point of one of my posts a few pages back, summed up with House is the only one with credentials beyond land grabbing and mass murder. Of all the options, his is the only faction to side with that has a CV and any real prospect.

? The NCR accidently killed a few great khans civilians but many survivors remain. House would have sent in the securitrons and killed them all if he ruled the Mojave.

I refuse to believe houses information is so terible that he believes the kings is a military group willing to sacrifice soldiers for the NCR, not the relief effort for freeside that it really is

NCR had more of a reason to destroy the BoS than ally with them than house. They were enemies and the NCR lost plenty of soldiers to them. House is probably looking after himself when he ordered you to destroy the BoS but he dosnt even mention any diplomacy solution. Kind of like Colonel Moore but worse

I REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS ARGUMENT

to make a long story short: if you're fine with a person who kills off any potential opposition, on the pure assumption they 'could' pose a danger later on, ok. i don't share your understanding of 'being good' then.
simple as that.

Straw man argument


Who said anything about The Kings being soldiers? What I meant was that the NCR would appear as altruists, when in truth their charity was a ruse for the sole purpose of gaining popular support. America and almost any other major power uses this tactic. Why? Because it works. Desperate people will desperately hope a new outcome can happen.


You're absolutely right, who cares the Brotherhood would come stomping into New Vegas, killing anyone who had anything worth plundering for their tech hoardes, assaulting The Strip, killing innocent civilians just because they are around alot of that fancy technology. All that matters is House is evil, cause he's the big bad boogieman with the technology and vision to repair a shatter humanity. SHAME on House!.

But seriously, if you think the NCR are any better than House, I think you got your goofy NCR troop helmet strapped on a BIT to tight.

It's not a potential danger, it's a real one. It's not "oh, they might possibly consider potentially causing a little problem". It's "they will attack us the moment they are capable".
Granted they may never reach capable, they are dying out, but it's still a huge risk to leave them there.

I think you simply fail to realise what the BoS is, are you thinking of the cute little FO3 BoS with their tin foil power armour and general care bear attitude?
This is not them. The western BoS are ruthless murdering tribals with a hard on for anything technological and the means to acquire them. They are, without a doubt, one of the most powerful remaining forces in the area. I cannot emphasise enough how powerful power armour is, even with the access to pulse technology they are frighteningly deadly opponents, like I said with the remnants, a slightly more powerful but seriously fewer in number group, they succeeded in killing scores of legionnaires with no loss, matched by the Boomers in approximate terms who were annihilated to a man.
People with power armour are more deadly, far more deadly, than people with artillery, war robots and a veritable feast of high ordinance weaponry.

And they will attack, don't think they won't. The BoS are so single minded it's painful. They will stop at nothing to obtain weapon technology, House has it, they want it. It boils down to that.

It's not a potential danger, it's a certain one. In the event that the BoS regain their power an attack on Vegas is inevitable, no amount of bargaining, no amount of truce swearing will stop that, delay it oh yeah, but not stop it. Their codex decrees it, they will attack Vegas, they will kill everyone who stands up to them. No more three families, no more kings, no more House. I cannot emphasise enough how likely that is to happen in the event that they survive.

And, to be as cold as House, if they never regain their power without external intervention then all we are doing is speeding the process alone. It does not impact anything in the greater picture of things.
As it is, I disagree with that final sentence, but I think that is how House would see it and it is a logical view. My disagreement stems from human fallibility and opportunity for exploitation.

-This. All of it. Times 12. Great post.

- Regardless... the notion of a benevolent dictator remains viable.



-The NCR would get tax revenues and power from the dam. Thats a pretty big carrot to the electorate. The benefits could have been massive to NCR. House blueprints, a diplomatic safezone, an ally armed with securitrons, political advice, Taxes, power for territoris back home... ect. It has taken less to broker deals in the world as we know it. House played no-one for svckers. He just played. That he was better at the game than the others isn't something to blame him for.So what if he was the govenor of vegas for life. The pro's would far outweight the cons.


- I dont think that a misgueded sense of Honor or even pride comes into this at all. Presented with a Legion option to make safe travels and a safe haven / neutral ground for a tax revenue Both could have prospered. A stalinist state could stil benefit from a a city state such as houses. I do however agree that a stalinist state would be unintelligent or unambitirous enough to disregard this option purely out of ideological reasons.


-Why the hell would House want to be co-ruler of Caesar lands? He only carse for Vegas and his model? I see no expasionist motives of House.


-Again the term servitude misses the point. If the legion could guarantee the safety and independence of vegas House wouldnt give a [censored]e. Servitude isnt the word. Caesar wants vegas because land. He doesnt want it because its an economic powerhouse. He just wants the real-esteate. If Caesar disregarded the real estate and just looked at benefits he could have easily opted for an alliance

-name me one faction that does.


-Empathyhy doesnet come into it... examine history. it never does. As for runnig vegas for your self... Just who are you? You are a lightwei′gth who doesnt undestand and who hast got the experience that house has...

Yes, there was mutual benefit to be had...and the political makeup of the NCR was nothing he could not live with...it actually would benefit him as he could lobby and make deals with industrial concerns in the NCR that would help with his goals. But House had no friends in the NCR and plenty of enemies, mostly with good reason. Talk to Hsu and Hanlon....they're disgusted with what House is doing to the NCR and how they are sending thier men out to die so House can rake in the caps. Hanlon actually wants to pull out of the Mojave altogether and leave House to his fate. I doubt even Crocker objected when Col. Moore came up with the bright idea of just killing him and being done with it. And back in NCR, the other established interests wouldn't like having to share the political pie with House....which they would have to in any conceivable deal he might agree to. While House amused himself gleefully calculating the odds of Kimball and Oliver killing themselves after they outlived thier usefulness to House and he sprang his trap.....they were plotting to kill him because he gave them no reason not to. As much as I despise Kimball and Oliver, I cannot really blame them for choosing to assassinate him.



Pride alone would prevent either House or Caesar from making any kind of deal....even if thier goals weren't diametrically opposed as they are. For Caesar there is the added factor of political necessity. CL is a Totalitarian State where all serve the Leader who answers to no one and knows no equal. How can Caesar have a Cult of Personality with a equal...and his army of warbots....sitting across the Strip from him? Even the Courier is but a subordinate...as the ending slide makes crystal clear....who is indulged because he is useful and has talents he can find nowhere else, but must bow before the God-King like everyone else or be ruthlessly put down. House is one of the greatest figures of the 21st Century, and almost certainly the greatest living intellect of the 23rd, to him Caesar is a revolting thug who put his limited education to use by trying to pass himself off as a God-King to illiterates and tribals.....a jumped up bunco artist. It would be difficult for House to interact with him as a equal.....he'd rather die than subordinate himself to the man.



You do realize Caesar wanted New Vegas to be his "New Rome" right? From there he planned to rule the five states he currently controlled and prepare for the war that would make him a historical figure in his own right....the campaign to conquer and absorb the NCR. He tells you all this. How is House going to pursue his dream while sitting in the capital of a Totalitarian empire that controls the West Coast and SW United States? Especially one that was rather technophobic? It's not about House being Co-Caesar...he wants nothing to do with the Legion to begin with...it's about the fact that House would never lower himself to serve Caesar, or anyone else for that matter. I'm surprised he wasn't recruited by the Enclave before the War....perhaps they tried and he brushed them off in favor of his own plans.



No it doesn't. Caesar could only allow House to exist inside his Empire if he accepts Caesar as his Sovereign and obeyed his commands like everyone else. That is something House will never, ever do and Caesar knows that. Even if House did so, he couldn't afford to trust him and he would cause more trouble than he was worth. God-Kings have no equals inside thier Realm. Not only would House undermine his cult of Personality by his mere existence, he's a major succession threat and a potential rallying point for internal enemies. New Vegas is unique in the former US, if not the world....ready made to be the capital of the Empire Caesar intends to be his legacy and his vehicle into immortality. He doesn't have 700 years for a new Rome to develop organically, after all. It's not just "real estate", it's the focus of his dream just like it is for House.

Both House and Caesar have specific plans to shape the future of the world in thier image. Both of them want New Vegas to be the launching pad for thier dream. Neither will suffer a equal, much less lower themselves to serve another. Neither of thier dreams are in any way compatible. Basically, your position is that they should abandon thier fondest dreams...dreams they have dedicated thier lives to making come true....for the sake of money. Believe it or not, some people are motivated by things other than money. House could still pursue his dream within the NCR......but not from within the Legion. House does not fit the template Caesar is using to create his New Man out of the tribes he conquers, for that he cannot be suffered to exist.

sorry man, i prefer systems where the guilt of a person needs to be proven first.
so have fun killing every single brotherhood member, down to young lads, kill the kings, kill anyone your master instructs you to, and feel good with it....
it's not like the game wouldn't give you the chance to get know the factions you are slaughtering, making your wild claims pretty dubious.
but some people obviously prefer to let others do the thinking for them. without people like you autocrats and tyrants would have a hard time in establishing their dictatorships...




my own faction, the game is giving you that option for a reason...




who are you to tell me i don't understand? you call me lightweighted, you, the willing tool who's taking any word from house as a word of god? are you projecting, perhaps?

The NCR rangers. But I don't think the NCR as whole actively hunt down slavers. (The Legion excluded, ofcourse)

Seriously, you ever talked to the BoS? Like I said I came to this game neutral, I didn't care about any of the factions. The BoS are not nice lovey dovey world lovers. They are a truly nasty lot.
I didn't kill the Kings and indeed wouldn't kill many others but the BoS are a huge threat. It is that simple. That you refuse to even acknowledge that someone could think that for themselves either shows delusion or narcissism, your pick I guess.

As for your status, you are a lightweight to House, I wager myself as a pretty damned good leader, between my knowledge of medicine, understanding of humanity and knowledge of tactics I'm a good all rounder and in that scenario would dedicate myself to bettering the land, I do however defer to House. He's far more advanced than me, militarily I don't really know but diplomatically he's incredibly slick, beating the NCR's big boys like they were children and running rings around them. He's wired into the mainframe and sees a lot more than I do at any one point and he's capable of emotionally detaching himself in order to make sacrifices, where necessary, to further the whole. I could not without serious consideration and time.

So yeah, I think I'm good, I know I'm intelligent and capable, I know I could hold Vegas together in terms of actually running the place. I also know House is better than me, better than you, better than anyone else. It's not as simple as him being smart, frankly while I think he is highly intelligent he isn't unmatchable, it's his basic knowledge, no one else knows as much about RepConn or Robco, no one else can rebuild the pre war tech from scratch, no one can come close. That alone makes him invaluable. Throw in the rest and well, that's why I deign to follow him. Not because I'm a sheep, not because I'm easily manipulated, simply because he is the best option in this scenario.

Yep, they've made me a member, and arranged a truce with the NCR. Hardin aside, very reasonable people, who look everything but thirsty for a next war.
Aside from that, from a stretegical point of view, they are just lacking the numbers
No reason to slaughter them AT ALL



So yeah, I think you're delusional.
Pre-emptive(and pointless) mass murder does not fit into my personal picture of goodness. And while you did not kill the Kings by yourself, you still hold a responsibility in it, as you let it happen.
But, different people, diefferent view, I suppose...

I think alot of these people defending the Brotherhood, still have that 'Knight in Shining Armor' that Lyon's chapter was doing image stuck in their heads. If this was Lyon's chapter, I'd feel terrible, but the typical Western Brotherhood Chapter is by standard definition tribal. Don't let the tech fool you, a tribal be definition is descended from a common ancestor, in their case Maripose Military Base. And live under a leader or chief, IE their Elder. To me, the Brotherhood isn't that impressive if you don't let the technology fool you into thinking them to be knights of yore in futuristic armor and shiny weapons.

Freqnasty, you call us House defenders 'tools' and 'sheep' who see his word as god. Aren't you doing the same thing so brashly defending your idea of 'I can do it!' and run Vegas. It's like General Oliver says, "It isn't like chowing down on a pile of Fancy Lad Snack Cakes." Caesar? House? Tandi? Lyons? They all learned it isn't easy to be a leader, and sacrifices are required, House paid financially and in more esoteric ways. Caesar paid in the senses of sacrificing technology at large to try and build humanity from scratch, no easy task. Tandi, being from Shady Sands, the founder of NCR, had to make very grey area choices for the sake of stable control. Lyons learned that traditional Brotherhood methods were going to be it's doom, so apart from technology, they try to save the people of D.C. and now that Project Purity is running and the Enclave no longer a threat, they may very well be able to save people now and rebuild D.C.

My point is, what about you? Leadership isn't soley command and conquer, no matter how many 14 year olds on this forum may believe. Leadership is also diplomacy, tactical ingenuity, treaty and trade, careful budgeting and power management for your lands. It's no small task. I'm a smart person, but I am nowhere near as clever as House is, and who best to run a nation? A courier with knowledge but no high end education or a man who graduated from a prestigious institute and founded a multibillion dollar corporation at the age of 22 and single handedly saved Vegas from the bombs and rebuilt it largely to it's former glory?

What history are you talking about?

Lincoln was very empathetic. He used to have nightmares about all of the men he sent to the front. As did Washington, who insisted on having similar accommodations to his men. Napoleon did this do, and when he led France, his Code ensured rights to all minority groups.

Peter the Great of Russia died of pneumonia after risking his life to save a random drowning sailor.

Most leaders have empathy – that’s why their subjects like them – if their subjects knew they were cold and unfeeling they wouldn’t be particularly happy. The Roman Emperor Claudius was rather benevolent but so unpersonable and misanthropic that people cheered after he was assisnitaed.

House wouldn’t do any of those things the men above did. He also doesn’t engage in any charity either, or give any aid to refugees of the legion or the NCR (the NCR at least make an effort to help the Khans after their slaughter. It clear to me that House wouldn’t bother).