We do not know for sure, but here the problem that ZOS has now:

1) People who brought CE pay extra money for it and if it is free ingame, they will feel cheated for paying extra for it -- It is still a pay gate

2) If it is a charge for it ingame, there is a pay gate

Pay gates should not belong in a sub game.

By that logic, why not charge extra all but for 3 races? Since races are not content going by you? Many of us do really care about the game and trying to keep ZOS from heading down the "Shadow of Death" path.

ESO is redefining the genre with a revolutionary new "P2P + SUB + PM2P" model

And the part that everyone seems to be ignoring is that this is only the beginning.

I think you have my side of the debate backwards friend. I am holeheartedly on your side. As far as I am concerned, everything in the game is content. And most certainly a playable race.

I'm not sure what you're saying. If I say, "A red box of chickens," it implies that the box is red, not that the chickens are. "An exclusive collection of digital content" is the same -- the exclusivity refers to the bundle, not to the items that comprise the bundle. By underlining "exclusive" and "content," you're misrepresenting what is actually being said.

Because content is content. Regardless if it is a box within a box. The contents of a box within the game is, by definition, still game content. A playable race is game content. I should just stop. I'm starting to get testy. I mean no disrespect, I'm just getting worn out from beating this dead horse. Some people will understand. Some won't. And that is just the way it is.

Yes, pre-ordering or ordering the CE gives you content. No one is arguing that. I am arguing that the content is not exclusive to the pre-order or the CE.

I'd be looking at Zenimax Media Inc to be honest.

There should be not pay gates for content that are core to the game in a sub model. Sub fees pay for content like Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, etc and race is part of the sub fee. Expansions is a whole different topic and ball park, and is fine to charge extra for -- they a lot more work, time etc.

Hey Everybody!

Made an account for this, been reading forums and I am SUPER PUMPED for TESO, I've loved every decision UNTIL NOW D:

To be clear, I agree with Force (his youtube vid on this subject is quality) and I think that putting an entire RACE into the collector's edition goes against the "You get the WHOLE GAME with the sub" philosophy that ZOS has been toting.

But what REALLY WORRIES ME: If the developers knew this was the plan (which they had to... they developed the imperial race after all), some of them must surely have said "this is going to piss off a lot of potential customers, shouldn't the race just be available to everyone, or through a quest chain or something?"

Which got me thinking... with any sub-based game, the best course of action is to maximize the number of subscribers, NOT the initial cost! An easy example of this is cellphone providers which give you a sweet $500 smart phone for FREE, since you will be paying out the ass through a sub for 2-3 years! Now why would ZOS piss off clients with this extra paygate at the start, which could (and to some degree for sure will) lead to less subscribers? I see 2 possible reasons; 1, they think people will svck it up and pay anyways, their game is just that good and screw the players, take their money! MUAHAHAH... or 2, and this is what really worries me... perhaps their projected sales were low enough to make this game not profitable enough to cover the huge investment (I read somewhere it was over $200 million?), so this is a last-ditch effort to cover their costs while they still can?

To be clear I think this game is going to be great and I will play it, but I really am saddened/worried about this state of affairs with the pre-order/Imperial Edition pay-now-or-miss-out thing.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this! friendly discussion is enjoyable discussion

At least you said "possible pay 2 win". Because while that is within the range of "possibility". There is no evidence from which to draw that conclusion yet.

I think many of you are just still pissed about fact that they want to charge a subscription. And that's probably (please take note of that word!) not going to change. So the bottom line is STILL: Do You Want to Play ESO or not? Period.

If you do then you need to get over your anger. And if not then you should find something else to occupy your time. It doesn't do you any good to stir yourselves up and make yourselves bitter. In fact that's most likely going to be bad for your overall health.

Very true. Good point

I have no problem paying a sub fee and I think it is a good idea in fact. My problem is pay gates on top of the sub fees.

As I stated in another thread, I think this is more to do with Zenimax Media Inc. rather than ZOS, the suits want their money back fast. Do I like the pay gate aspect? Nope, do I think it will lead to more stuff like this? Probably, but I hope I am wrong about that, will it stop me playing the game? Nah, still going to play for a long long time.

No, it's called an F2P, as most successful F2P games actually (really slowly) let you earn the store bought currency in-game as well.

It's one of those tenants of F2P play- no exclusive content period.

It's why Asian F2P MMOs are so much more successful and so much more numerous, they have this [censored] down.

May I ask what in the world gives you that idea when it's clearly listed as exclusive? Doesn't matter. I will play the game. And I will enjoy it. But my hopes aren't nearly as high as they were a few days ago. I played beta and loved it. But if this game adds anymore significant items to a cash shop while charging a sub, I will be part of the soon to follow mass exodus. I have seen it before. Too many times. All the warning signs are there now.

And that will make me sad, because I wanted to embrace this game.

It did make me laugh when Force was about to tear into the CE mount then about 2 seconds later he suddenly realised what the wording meant, that it was simply stating the mount was faster than running - that sort of summed everything up really - ambiguity, at its finest, has caused a rampage round these 'ere parts.

Agreed.

I am very sorry, I forget a word in my statement. (I hate when I do that) I meant to say this

"There should be not pay gates for content that are core to the game in a sub model. "

I don't know if I can make this any more clear than my "red box vs. red chickens" example earlier but I'll try.

These things, individually, are not exclusive. They can be achieved in game with no additional RL money (speculation):

- Imperial race

- Imperial horse

- Mudcrab pet

- Rings of Mara

The bundle -- meaning the collection of these objects that can be acquired all at once -- is exclusive to the IE. I don't know how to put it any simpler. The content is not exclusive, the bundle is.

Of course, I'm speculating about whether these are actually available for free in-game. I'm just clarifying what I believe the verbiage "Exclusive collection of digital content" means.

Funny how a single word can change the meaning

Also I'm absolutely fine with expansions. As long as they're worth the price, of course. They can't just throw a race and skill line together and say "HAI GUIZ GIMME 50 BUCKS PLEZ!"

I knew what you meant and I agree Expansions are a completely different topic. I have no issue what so ever footing a bill for a huge xpac.

I want to state, however, that even F2P P2W MMOs have a way of members slowly obtaining items other members pay for. A games that have no box fee nor sub.

And the page doesn't say anything about an exclusive bundle; it talks about exclusive content. Darn, if only the plural of content were different.

Hey I was all for the game, I followed it like everyone else. My misgivings started in August and when they said it was going to be a subscription game. I thought it would be buy to play like their other titles. But it wasnt a deal breaker. I can get behind a sub game if its WORTH it, and that goes beyond the IP or the title.

As time went on and more stuff was introduced and more stuff was revealed I was getting less and less inclined to think it was a sub worthy MMO. No AH, no housing, crafting was completely up in the air, multiple guild participation. CORE MMO parts (well maybe not housing) missing or being tampered with. A subscription based game has to offer everything a free to play or buy to play game offers and more. besides simply being the newest game released.

So more time goes by no new new. Theyre totally focusing on PvP and showing emperor armor and how they created keeps and a bunch of [censored] a lot of people dont care about and some will never ever have a chance to get. PvE info is very lack luster and nonexistent for the most part.

Then they release a video of a couple developers fighting a Rift errr fighting an anchor or whatever it is. I laughed at that for a couple days. No real explanation of how they work or what the environment is like if theyre co op or pre made group if one spawns how many people will be on it, is there open tagging or if one group tags it is it theirs? If they do tag it and 50 people stand by and watch does it make it impossible for a small group to defeat it if it gets stronger the more people you have. (griefing) Nothing explained about any of it. Just a bunch of guys talking and fighting it. And THAT is supposed to get people excited? I need a little bit more. But to be fair it was something and the quality of the video was a lot better than what we had seen before from them.

But EVERYTHING released 'officially' has been (IMO) purposefully vague. I dont like it.

Like I said I had pretty high hopes for this game but as time went by they diminished greatly. But that is purely opinion based on what I have seen.

But this fiasco here isnt really opinion. Some people can try to play the semantics game all they want. But this contradicts so many KEY points said by the game developers about this game that there is no defense. The only defense is maybe the developers really didnt know. But if you watch videos chronologically you definitely see a shift. The Q&A session become a lot more elusive and the nervous "I could answer that but the MARKETING dept might get upset" start and it leads up to this.

Its sad. If it goes buy to play or free to play and there ae still people playing it I will give it a go. The MMO landscape is so poor that you have to at least look at the new games that come especially if they dont cost you anything. I am just not willing, knowing what I know to pay 60 bux to play a game a month and then sit around and wait for it to go free to play or whatever so I can continue playing it. I surely wont pay a subscription t a game that sells things in a cash shop like this one seems willing to do.

I am a critic, I am not a hater. I say it all the time they can do what they want and they will definitely make a lot of money. The sad thing is it just perpetuates the MAJOR problems the whole genre has, and that is a sever lack of effort put forth by companies to produce a QUALITY game that is WORTH the money on it GAMEPLAY merits. Not its IP or the hype or the fanbois nonsense.

But when a company does what this one has done in a 6 month span it is tough to support it. A mistake here or there sure. But blatant reversals and obvious cash grabs cant be ignored. Its been a gradual build up of questions and hesitations which ultimately culminated with a realization that the thoughts I had were correct and they had materialized.

if they do another 180 and clean up their mistakes and keep a decent population and make the game sub worthy I will play it, and pay the sub. I am about 90% sure that won t happen because I am 90% it will go the opposite direction and I wont have to pay anything but a reduced box price or maybe nothing at all.

That is more opinion but opinion based on A LOT of empirical evidence and observations.

i want to see the devs respond to all the criticism