Look at the front gates of Markarth and Riften in the CK too... there are markers all over the place for a Civil War battle there.


How is he? He murdered the king. A king that would have likely followed him if he asked. By abusing a power taught to him by the Graybeards. He was going to be one, but his impatience doomed that endeavour.

The WGC is part of a long game, it isn't some spineless acquiescence. The Empire barely withstood the last onslaught from the Dominion and was in no shape to retaliate. And in typical "True Nord" fasion, half of Skyrim feels instead of thinks, leading to exactly what the Thalmor wanted: the province that probably was the least scathed by the Great War is now torn asunder.

He used a show of force and power, to prove that he would make a more effective and powerful King. That he would do the hard things, and not bow to Imperial coin. The entire point of the tradition he called. No murder in it. The fact its considered such is an example of how the Empire has groudn down and destroyed much of the Nord culture. Whether you think its nice or not is a completely different topic.

However, one thing Ulfric isn't is a mind-reader. He may very well have had no idea that Torygg 'might' have followed him. And thats a pretty big assumption, since we only get a shaky source on that unless Torygg mentions it himself.

He also 'abused' the powers of the Greybeards long before this; he was a vetran soldier for the Empire if you'll remember. He left to support the Empire intiailly. He didn't break his oaths to them to form the Stormcloaks. IIRC, he used the voice in 'service' to the Empire, at Markarth. Torygg was the last known time he used his voice. Honestly the Greybeards lack of scolding on Hight Hrothgar should be telling. Its in the past, and while I respect their ideals, I feel its down to the individual to decide how to use the power in their grasp. He has it, he has aprted ways with the Greybeards, and he can use it for the good of Skyrim. In my eyes thats better than pretending he never learned the abilities. They give the Dragonborn a pass on prophetic reasons; but in practice there is very little difference between Ulfric using what he learned and the Dragonborn. Especially since the Latter can be a member of the Dark Brotherhood and absolute monster. But its okay for him to 'Yol' an old lady. The rules don't apply to heroes.



Nice opinion. However, lets look at some historcal facts. The Thalmors main invasion force was destroyed too. Neither side looked healthy at the end, and the terms the Emperor agreed to are supposedly very close to what was initially demanded. Second, the Thalmor don't want Skyrim to win anymore than they want the Empire to win. An 'independant' Skyrim during the troubles caused by Jagar Tharn destroyed the combined forces of both Hammerfell and High Rock. They are much more dangerous even as a lone provicne than people give them credit for. By the end of the Stormcloak questline Skyrim in no longer asunder but united. They are also in a better position to ally with Hammerfell (which simply won't happen with the Empire, or at the very least is incredibly unlikely), and Ulfric is cunning. In my opinion he would still ally with the Empire to fight, he just doesn't want to be part of a vestigal Empire.


Plus, there is the player meta-knowledge. Somehow, both sides stories are going to end the same way n the long run. Either the Thalmor are defeated, or Empire OR Stormcleaks are defeated by the Thalmor. Unless they pull out a Warp in the North then things are going to be tied up neatly and only noted in vague terms. Because of this the eventual fight with the thalmor is irelevent. The only factor in all this is whether you feel that the Nords should have their independant province, and kick out the thalmor death squads, or be part of a weakened and fractured Empire that may be able to rebuild. If it can sweet talk Hammerfell. And convine High rock to actually act like part of the Empire. And appease the mothers/fathers and sons/daughters of the dead Stormcloaks in a bitter and pacified Skyrim. And find some way to prove the Thalmor arn't the saviors of the Khajiit. >.>

Observation is the key. The chef has obviously been at the palace for some time now, and so I'm sure he knows whats going on in spite of his roles of being a chef. He obviously sees that General Tullius wields the power over Solitude because he knows more about high politics over the grieving widow who was given the status of Jarl over the inheritance over the death of her husband, High King (and Jarl of Solitude) Torygg. You can be a chef and have a very close friendship with the Jarl... meaning that you can have free range to certain areas in the castle. Observation is the domination over an important figure. Look at Tilma the Haggard of Jorrvaskr. Shes just a servant yet she knows everything that goes on there. I'm certain she knows about the circle of werewolves.


I wouldn't exactly say that Elisif made the city stable and safe when it clearly showed just how unstable the protection of her city can be when a couple of the members from the Darkbrother hood can barge right into the city and kill the emperors cousin on her own wedding day. Oh and how poor Roggvir wands up getting executed for treason after helping Ulfric to escape the city yet the Dragonborn doesn't get the same treatment for attempting to assassinate Emperor Titus Mede II.

Sure Erikur has connections with the thieves guild but you know what? He could use it in a good way. Same way with Maven with her strong connections with both Thieves guild and the Darkbrother hood.
If sided with the stormcloaks we all know who actually is in charge of Riften, and we all know who wears the boss pants in the city as Laila Law-Giver is easily intimidated by Maven.


Murdering a King and killing one are 2 separate things. Ulfric went to Solitude and challenge Torygg to a fight and he accepted. Once you accept a fight theirs no murder, and theirs no rules like no kicking groins,etc. You fight for the death and you use whatever power that you have to defeat your opponent.

Yes Ulfric was going to be part of the greybeards but he changed his mind. High Politics was his goals, not to seclude himself away from society like the Greybeards do on High Hrothgar. To that respects I agree with Delphine that the Greybeards are afraid of the very same power that they possess. They would rather sit and watch Alduin destroy skyrim and the rest of the world then to do something about it.

Its funny when people say that the high king woulda followed ulfric. The lady they get this information tells us that if ulfric had asked to join him, he mihht have then goes on and on and on about reasons why the high king wouldnt have. Basically the high king would have liked to join ulfric but he found to many reasons not to.

Torygg was the High King of Skyrim. Ulfric is only the Jarl of one portion of it. As a Jarl he was/is subordinate to the High King of his country, and whatever political authority he had began and ended in Eastmarch. It's not up to him to declare Skryim's independence and then hope that the actual ruler of his country decides to come along for the ride. It would be like our local county commissioner announcing that Ohio is seceding from the USA and then hoping the state's governor gets on board with the plan.

As High King, Torygg is the one who should've been leading the country, not following along with this or that Jarl whose ideas seem like good ones. If there was to be any attempt to gain independence for Skyrim prior to Torygg's death, it was Torygg's responsibility to move the country in that direction and ask his Jarls to follow him, not the other way around. IIRC there is dialogue from NPCs that states clearly that Ulfric spoke up fervently in favor of secession in a previous moot and as a Jarl who is subordinate to a higher ruler, that is the most he could've done at the time. While Torygg was alive and still High King, taking action on the issue of secession was his responsibility as the political ruler of Skyrim as a whole. And regardless of how much he may have admired Ulfric or thought about secession or even agreed with the idea of it, he did nothing.

Ulfric had two choices - speak up in favor of independence and hope the High King agreed and then acted on it, or else challenge Torygg's leadership as High King and put himself forward as a worthier candidate for the position. Apparently he did the former and saw no reason to believe that it made any difference and neither did anybody else as far as I can tell. What Torygg may have thought or felt is irrelevant if it did not lead to action.

Torygg may not have thought that there would be great enough support within Skyrim to secede from the Empire. If he announced Skyrim was now independent, but Whiterun, Falkreath, the Reach, whatever Morthal's province is called refused to go along with it (those being the other 4 loyalist holdings in the civil war) their could still be a civil war dividing the country. It's better not to rush into something like this, and first figure out how many allies you have and where they are. There's a lot more to ruling than simply killing the people who don't agree with you; something Ulfric could stand to learn.

A revolution has to start somewhere. Often about half the people aren't on board.

As noted above, a revolution has to start somewhere. And of course, the entire point of the tradition that ended with Torygg dead is the second option. He put himself forwards as a better candidate. A traditional duel where the King proves his right-by-might to rule. It was the Empire that objected, and his wife (understandably) of course, who called foul and decided that it became 'murder'. =)



Yes, the man who not only spared Elisef (albet most likely for political situations), desperetely wanted to spare Rikke, and allowed the Jarl of Whiterun to gather his household and leave, and also does not blame the majority for being undecided about their cause because they are weighing it in their hearts, he needs to learn something about not killing people for disagreeing. Rather than a certain General who gloats about the fact he is about to behead Ulfric in the beggining, notes with satisfaction that he will get Ulfric back on the chopping block at a peace summit, and his terms for Stormcloak surrender being that Ulfrc surrenders himself for 'Imperial justice'. Right.

Infact, i'm not certain if a single Jarl is actually killed on either side (aside from Ulfric, of course) so much as banished or removed from their seat?


I mean damn, I'M supposed to be the Imperial here since I live in the UK and in an ex-Empire. How many people supporting the Empire and damning the revolution live in America, which owes its independant existance to revolution. =P

Yep.

True, but that would've been a possible outcome for any High King making a call for secession at any time. If the outcome of the challenge and duel had been honored by calling a Moot and Ulfric (or some other pro-secession Jarl) had been made High King and then declared independence, the pro-Imperial Jarls would still have been pro-Imperial. Whether they would've just svcked it up and fallen in line with their "democratically" elected higher authority, or called on and/or collaborated with the Empire to try and overthrow the new regime, is anybody's guess. The country might've ended up in a civil war where the pro-Imperials were considered the "rebels" instead of the other way around.

If there were any evidence that Torygg was actually in favor of independence and working to convince the pro-Imperial holds to go along with it peacefully, then your point would have more validity. But I haven't seen any evidence that he was working towards that end or had any desire to do so, or that Ulfric or anyone else knew or believed that this was the case. There is evidence that Torygg was known for making lots and lots of speeches extolling the virtues of the Empire, regardless of how much he may have admired Ulfric personally or politically. If those speeches were not indicative of his true intentions, it was his responsibility to make that known to Ulfric and the other pro-secession Jarls who might get the wrong idea and think that replacing him was their only viable option for independence. It wasn't their responsibility to read his mind in order to figure out where he stood on the issue.

No, it shows that he is willing to bowl over anyone who is in his way. No appeal to Torygg before killing him, just straight to murder by Thu'um abuse. If Torygg was truly such a wuss in a fight like everyone claims, why did Ulfric have to Shout?

If I recall, Ulfric also says the Shout is not something to be used casually (or something to that effect). Sorry, but actions speak louder than words... wait... thu'um IS words.... dangit... you know what I mean.


In practice, there is a great big difference: Ulfric learned the Thu'um from men. The Dragonborn's is innate and divinely granted. Ulfric's Thu'um is learned, a tool. The Dragonborn's is just as much a part of them as their heart or mind.




Let's look at real history now too: The Japanese armed forces were in absolute tatters near the end of WWII. And yet... the Allied forces were still fearing the prospect of a land invasion of Japan. Why? Fanatical population. That's what the Empire would have faced. The Thalmor did their homework driving out and then subsequently slaughtering all the dissidents (ask Legate Fasendil about that); all that's left are the fanatical or the fearful.

Reman never did conquer the Isles, the best he manged was Tribute. Tiber Septim needed the freakin' Numidium to conquer them. The Empire had neither a Dragonborn nor a Giant Stompy Robot on their side this time.

Sure, the Nords may have been a force to be reckoned with... as far as matters of the Sword are concerned. But the Thalmor don't play that game. They go for the Dagger Behind The Back. And as shown, the Stormcloaks jumped exactly when the Thalmor told them to in order to weaken the Empire.

And all the rhetoric he expounds say otherwise to "allying with the Empire".

Nobody is saying that Torygg was a wuss because he wasn't. He wasn't good at defending himself. That is what Ulfric was complaining about in Windhelm. The problem with the nords is that they do not trust magic (other than restoration) therefor they don't want any part of it whatsoever. This is a potential problem for those who are battling up with someone who does know magic and not afraid to use it either.

Say if my pure mage character wanted to challenge Torygg to a duel in a nord tradition What rules indicates that my mage can and cannot use any form of magic to take down Torygg? Same with Ulfric. The Thu'um is an ancient form of Nordic magic, and since Ulfric challenged the High King in the nord tradition the Thu'um is not considered forbidden and is admissible. Torygg should've learn how to block it with the ward spell. Not Ulfrics fault at all. Ulfric won fair and square.

How do we know this? That there was no appeal? Ulfric had to challenge him and assumedly words were exchanged, and Torygg accepted the duel, and apparantly his fate. At the end of the day we don't know what was said. If we can trust Elisef's words, then Torygg admired Ulfric because of his views and appeals. What Ulfric did was a 'final straw, doing something about it' situation from what information we are given. He may very well have done everything but openly ask the High King to commit 'treason', we simply don't know.

I don't feel Ulfric did or does use the Thu'um casually. His use in the duel showed his power, which I again note is the point of the tradition - it isn't about fair play, and also allowed him (potentially) to escape before being arrested.



Thats simply about how they gained the ability. Since Ulfric knows it, it has become part of him. I stand by my point and don't feel this in any way disproves it.



Thats still what the Empire faces. The WGC also was designed by some very intelligent Mer to sabotage the Empire. The fact that Hammerfell is no longer part of the Empire and all the ill-will in Skyrim stems from it. Accepting it puts them in just as bad, if not a worse, situation of a different nature. They have less strength to actually rebuild, Hamerfell aside (and tthats a big point to put aside) as a good number of the 'put down' Stormcloaks would have otherwise likely been Imperial Soldiers before/eventually. It was designed to rip the Empire apart from within. There is no 'biding time' with the WGC. It did its job perfectly. The entire reason Ulfric fights is to make all the blood spilled before the WGC was signed anyway actually mean something. To take down the Thalmor.

To use Raizen's sig: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath... I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must." ―http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Raidensama/Skyrim/Ulfricstormcloaktext.png

If I remember right, he says very little about relations with the Empire aside from getting them out of Skyrim. His priority is the Thalmor. The enemy of my enemy and all that. It doesn't mean he will welcome them back into Skyrim; it means he will fight beside most likely, but with independant forces that won't bow out.

Jumped sort of like the empire did with the WGC? You can't weaken the empire much more than that, or by fighting your provinces and Talos worshippers rather than the real enemy.

Whether Skyrim allies with Cyrodiil again depends, I'm sure, on whether the new emperor recognizes an independent Skyrim.