level 50 mage impressions : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:50 am

I'm not sure if it was in this thread, but I made the exact same point earlier.

That's where destruction lets you down IMO

If I hadn't done my first playthrough as a solid warrior type I would try it myself since it does sound fun up until the high end fallout where conventional weapons far surpass destruction.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:06 am

makes me wonder even more why spell crafting is out

Call me cynical but a future DL perhaps?

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:29 am

For one its not what a "CONJURER" does. its what a mage does. As a mage you should be interested in all magic schools. Or else you are not a true mage now are you?
Play without using conjuration? sure i'll go play a warrior without a shield too. That'll be fun. Conjuration is always a staple of being a true mage. You need something to block for you and to try to play with only destruction is like trying to play a warrior without armor. You make it difficult for yourself. Its fine.

Why would I want to do this on expert or master? who the hell cares? If you are going to raise the difficulty you are defenately bringing the pain to yourself. If that's what the arguement is its a complete joke.

No its not "Nuff said" because for some reason MY destruction magic is just fine. It does a lot of damage for me. So that's how I can tell expert spells aren't being used. When they are actually fine. They still demolish everything I come across.

You cause the difficulty on yourself if you are just going with destruction and not going to use the other schools. That is literally what makes a mage a mage. Not just competency with destruction magic but all of the schools. I thought that was pretty common knowledge.

A warrior must be good with multiple skills to survive and should also pick up a bow or have some ranged tactic. A theif must not only sneak and be a good archer but should be reasonably seasoned for melee.

None of these are made up with just abusing one skill. Similarly you can't expect to walk around in robes and win the game only using destruction magic.

You must think logically. What will I do once they close the distance? Well. You need something to distract them or to evade them in some way or to deal with them when they get close.

Thank god, Someone with some sense!

I've been stating this forever, and you've by far exceeded any explination I've tried to put on these kids. Everyone is so close-minded about 1 school of magic in this game that they don't understand the grasp behind what a mage is. You are the smartest person in this forum.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:21 am

My destruction magic is just fine. In fact the summons and merc could really just be substituted by a sturdy fence.

Lol, I would like to see how you fair without your "fence". Part of the games challenge is dodging or blocking at the right moments 50% attack and 50% defense, which normally gives me a sense of immense satisfaction when I win. I would absolutely destroy enemies if they were busy fighting other people. Try running around on your own. And then we can watch you running with your wand between your legs.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:35 am

Imo the smithing/enchanting stuff is the broken part (ridiculously overpowered and exploitable). Magic is just fine, even on master difficulty)

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Thank god, Someone with some sense!

I've been stating this forever, and you've by far exceeded any explination I've tried to put on these kids. Everyone is so close-minded about 1 school of magic in this game that they don't understand the grasp behind what a mage is. You are the smartest person in this forum.

No, neither of you have actually read the principle question being raised by many, which is:

- is Destruction magic, as an offensive skill, equivalent in power to one or two handed or archery.

The answer is that it isn't, it's way under powered. I get the fact that other schools should be used as a mage, and I use them - all the time. This is not a debate about how to be a good mage. It's born specifically as a question of whether Destruction, in of itself relative to other offensive (Illusion and Conjuration are defensive) is under powered

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:48 am

Imo the smithing/enchanting stuff is the broken part (ridiculously overpowered and exploitable). Magic is just fine, even on master difficulty)

Exactly this.

Sure you can craft weapons that four-six times the damage of what you find by exploiting the system, but why would you want to in a single player game? Maybe one hitting a dragon will get you 23 likes on youtube but in terms of gameplay satisfaction you might as well turn the difficulty down to none.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:34 am

No, neither of you have actually read the principle question being raised by many, which is:

- is Destruction magic, as an offensive skill, equivalent in power to one or two handed or archery.

The answer is that it isn't, it's way under powered. I get the fact that other schools should be used as a mage, and I use them - all the time. This is not a debate about how to be a good mage. It's born specifically as a question of whether Destruction, in of itself relative to other offensive (Illusion and Conjuration are defensive) is under powered

And you know what? I'm glad it isn't! How does that make you feel?! Oh wait, I don't care.

What kind of mage only uses destruction? My arguement is that you shouldn't have a right to complain if you feel that's your only output for damage as a mage. God you're f*ing hillarious.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:17 am

Exactly this.

Sure you can craft weapons that four-six times the damage of what you find by exploiting the system, but why would you want to in a single player game? Maybe one hitting a dragon will get you 23 likes on youtube but in terms of gameplay satisfaction you might as well turn the difficulty down to none.

I second this.

Also I want to add if you want to end up one hitting things, you should probably wait til the max skill level or max level to do so. You won't really gain as much experience in earlier levels if you just enchant everything and one shot everything.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:39 pm

Which makes no difference because in combat magicka regen is 70% slower than when out of combat. Meanwhile Mr Warrior can still bash enemies to death even with NO STAMINA LEFT. So a warrior can hit as many times as he wants but a mage has to wait for a bar to fill up? How is that fair?

Use a staff, genius

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:30 am

Lol, I would like to see how you fair without your "fence". Part of the games challenge is dodging or blocking at the right moments 50% attack and 50% defense, which normally gives me a sense of immense satisfaction when I win. I would absolutely destroy enemies if they were busy fighting other people. Try running around on your own. And then we can watch you running with your wand between your legs.

Mages are meant to be fragile and avoid getting tagged and/or close to their enemies as much as possible. Distracting your opponents/utilising the terrain is part of the playstyle.

If we take what you said in another context, a warrior may as well fight an archer with the restriction that they remain 20 feet apart at all times - lets see how well the warrior does *facepalm*

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:39 am

Thanks, good to know when i'll be playing mage,
Again, thanks alot!

» Sat May 12, 2012 12:36 pm

And you know what? I'm glad it isn't! How does that make you feel?! Oh wait, I don't care.

What kind of mage only uses destruction? My arguement is that you shouldn't have a right to complain if you feel that's your only output for damage as a mage. God you're f*ing hillarious.

Never mind

I don't want to debate this further as apparently everyone is answering different questions

Interesting that you choose to resort to insults by the way, great contribution

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:13 am

No, neither of you have actually read the principle question being raised by many, which is:

- is Destruction magic, as an offensive skill, equivalent in power to one or two handed or archery.

The answer is that it isn't, it's way under powered. I get the fact that other schools should be used as a mage, and I use them - all the time. This is not a debate about how to be a good mage. It's born specifically as a question of whether Destruction, in of itself relative to other offensive (Illusion and Conjuration are defensive) is under powered

How much damage does a warrior with maxed 1handed, and NOTHING ELSE LEVELLED do?

How much damage does a mage with maxed destruction do?

Thats why your argument is flawed.

Besides, if you only ever use destruction your character wont progress beyond level 8. You'll be fine

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:25 am

How much damage does a warrior with maxed 1handed, and NOTHING ELSE LEVELLED do?

How much damage does a mage with maxed destruction do?

Thats why your argument is flawed.

Besides, if you only ever use destruction your character will be maxed at level 8. You'll be fine

The answer is a shed load more than destruction. For one handed you can essentially level, without any cost, by just using a better weapon.

Furthermore, if we add other aspects to it, then the damage becomes huge.

There's no way of enhancing the damage of destruction

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:34 am

The answer is a shed load more than destruction. For one handed you can essentially level, without any cost, by just using a better weapon.

Furthermore, if we add other aspects to it, then the damage becomes huge.

There's no way of enhancing the damage of destruction

Check the numbers and you'll be surprised. Remember that there are several dot/aoe spells that stack.

If you have to add other skills to the warrior to justify your argument, then you just invalidated your point

» Sat May 12, 2012 12:39 pm

I was with you until 'youre not supposed to participate in this discussion if you restrict yourself because of roleplaying'

In a roleplaying game.
:facepalm:

So fine, mages are a viable build, if you like being pigeonholed into a singular playstyle in a 'be who you want to be, do what you want to do' game.

Meanwhile, how do you get your magicka regeneration bonus to work in combat situations?

And lastly.
A game developer that is renowned for a fantastically varied and infinitely tweakable magic system releases a follow up to the series with this.. garbage.. for magic?
I call it a disgrace.
Destruction reduced to elemental damage, conjuration a hollow shell of itself, many, many effects inexplicably missing including dispel which I could really have used on more than one occasion.
Yes, fine, they look cool.
That novelty has worn off for me by now.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:37 pm

The problem with this thread is that it is predicated on a misunderstanding... The question isn't "Is a mage viable?" the question is "Is destruction magic viable on Master level difficulty?" The answer is quite obviously no.

Really balance discussions do not come until play until Master level, as it is relatively easy to blunder through the game at lower difficulties with non-optimized builds.

The fact is that currently the playstyle traditionally defined as mage, i.e. slinging spells to kill your opponent directly really cannot be done at the highest difficulty level do to poor scaling vis-a-vis physical weapons. Its not the end of the world, but it probably should be looked into at some point. There are very specific ways to make it work (somehat), but require a LOT of extraneous effort (maxing alteration to get the massive physical and magic resist spells and enchanting gear to make Destruction magic free: but even then it takes literally forever to kill level 50 mobs)

Now if you want to be a conjurer that is very viable: "battlemages" (those who specialize in melee/ranged weaponry with magic support) are terrific.

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:49 pm

No, neither of you have actually read the principle question being raised by many, which is:

- is Destruction magic, as an offensive skill, equivalent in power to one or two handed or archery.

The answer is that it isn't, it's way under powered. I get the fact that other schools should be used as a mage, and I use them - all the time. This is not a debate about how to be a good mage. It's born specifically as a question of whether Destruction, in of itself relative to other offensive (Illusion and Conjuration are defensive) is under powered

But the question is in principle wrong. The question should be is destruction damage sufficient to do the job on master level ? Or is it what you amuse yourself with while your companion and conjurations kill stuff.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:49 am

If destruction magic would be as lethal as 1- or 2-handed weapon attacks, or archery for that matter, it would be overpowered. It is much easier to hit with destruction spells than with a bow (that's what I think at least). Not to speak of close combat 1- or 2-handed attacks, since destruction magic is ranged based. PLUS, an all-around mage can also summon creatures and heal himself with restoration. So it is balanced out between all magic schools. No single school of magic is good enough to beat a high level warrior, but the combination of all those schools are. So it's not overpowered.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:02 am

So to be a "true" warrior i have to master one handed,two handed, block, archery and heavy armor?
:facepalm:

And yeah, i see now you dont have a clue what role playing means.

No, but you at least need two skills if not more, a armor skill and a weapon skill. So why would it be any different for a mage? A warrior to be effective would need at least skill in one handed (dual wield) or sword and board (one handed and block) with a armor skill.
So you have at least two skills, add in things you are likely to level up anyway like restoration or archery and that's anywhere from 2-4 skills to work on.
Why should mage be any different?
If you want to RP and only use one or maybe two schools of magic then the difficulty is player created and not a problem with the game.

If you insist on only using destruction magic, then try playing a warrior wearing no armor or clothing and using a two handed sword and never blocking.
Its basically the same thing.
This is not Oblivion or Morrowind the rules have changed and a overly specialized character will be found lacking later on.
Many people have stated that magic svcks, while a almost equal amount state that it does not.
The thing I have noticed among every one of these threads is this, the people who say magic svcks only want to use one school of magic or maybe two.
The people who say its fine use them all equally.

Now, as I have not played a mage and I am currently working on my thief after finishing my warrior I do not have much first hand experience, only what I have observed on the forums.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:41 am

No, neither of you have actually read the principle question being raised by many, which is:

- is Destruction magic, as an offensive skill, equivalent in power to one or two handed or archery.

The answer is that it isn't, it's way under powered. I get the fact that other schools should be used as a mage, and I use them - all the time. This is not a debate about how to be a good mage. It's born specifically as a question of whether Destruction, in of itself relative to other offensive (Illusion and Conjuration are defensive) is under powered

On top of what everyone else has argued, the point is that Destruction shouldn't be flat out comparible to weapon skills. Mages can use conjuration to summon a creature that 1) acts as their armor and 2) attacks while acting as armor. So add your own destruction magic to the mix, you have two sources of attacks with one acting as a damage sponge. Warriors can only use one weapon at a time (or dual wield) - they can't shoot a bow and swing a two hander at the same time.

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:55 am

On top of what everyone else has argued, the point is that Destruction shouldn't be flat out comparible to weapon skills. Mages can use conjuration to summon a creature that 1) acts as their armor and 2) attacks while acting as armor. So add your own destruction magic to the mix, you have two sources of attacks with one acting as a damage sponge. Warriors can only use one weapon at a time (or dual wield) - they can't shoot a bow and swing a two hander at the same time.

That's what I meant. It is balanced out.

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:34 am

Mages are meant to be fragile and avoid getting tagged and/or close to their enemies as much as possible. Distracting your opponents/utilising the terrain is part of the playstyle.

If we take what you said in another context, a warrior may as well fight an archer with the restriction that they remain 20 feet apart at all times - lets see how well the warrior does *facepalm*

His point was that he is all strong and powerful, yet he utilises followers to hinder enemies. Mages are meant to be fragile, avoid getting hit? What about spells that fortify HP, the magical shield that necromancers use? I don't care about the power of destruction. Surely a powerful mage would be able to cast protective spells and then blast enemies with magic.

And I fail to realise how *in another context* is remotely the same as what I said? Surely the other context would be what I referred to. A warrior or an archer for that matter, using companions as a shield/fence.

I think your itching for an argument and misinterpreted my point as a result. My issue was that he claims to be all powerful (from whatever magic) yet he hides behind companions. If he was an all-powerful mage, surely he would use some of the things I mentioned above instead. There’s no real challenge if enemies aren’t attacking you. So in that respect I agree with some of what you said “Distracting your opponents/utilising the terrain is part of the playstyle”, because you have to run and out manoeuvre enemies, not just fire into a mass crowd that ignores you.

» Sat May 12, 2012 12:05 pm

Another failed post about how mages in Skyrim need to just turn down the difficulty, clearly it's that easy!

Meanwhile, the point is completely missed (balance between 1h/2h/bow and magic).