I get the impression that the majority of the 'moans' are born of a players continued insistence on using Flames, Sparks and the Cold version of the same continuous stream destruction spell. Ie,, the 3 most basic destruction spells.

I get the impression that some people wamnt the damage output of these 3 Novice destruction spells to scale with their level. It never used to work like this in Bethesda releases, why should it now? Scaling (in almost all its forms) is a sickness in Bethesda games if you ask me, it's basically a crutch that people use to manage the difficulty. These moans are born of relying on this crutch, and the reluctance to adopt new tactics as the game progresses.

Magic based characters should, in a good rpg, be more difficult to play. And I believe, not overly reliant on destruction spells (which should be used more by melee/magic characters - the old SpellSword for example or Battlemage)) I think "real" mages should require more thought to play. play fist as a "tank" and learn the game mechanics then play as a mage. The experience should be far different - like playing a different game. Adds to replay value also. My thoughts, for what they are worth

It's not a question of over reliance. It's a question of balance and relative strength.

Destruction spells are very expensive, and not that powerful.

Compare that to one handed - there's no stamina cost for a general attack, there are tons of types of weapon, all of which you can smith AND enchant to make even more powerful.

When comparing the offensive skills in the game, Destruction comes up short. That's what this boils down to.

In Oblivion it was over-powered.

popej - I don't agree. In Oblivion you had the spell alter. You had the ability to increase damage at the cost of magicka. That's all that's needed here IMO

With companion and 2 summons OP basically uses destro magic so they can see the battlefield properly and do the heavy lifting.

This makes sense; I bummed it all last weekend and got two characters to level 23 and 25, respectively. I didn't play the ENTIRE time though. It is possible.

No problem, I just decided to do this too see if the scaling was as bad as people were saying. If I did everything properly, this would mean someone would have to level every mage tree and alchemy to get to 50. The only way you could get to a higher level you would have to level non mage skills making you a hybrid, or you just want to have a high speech I guess.

So scaling shouldn't be too much of an issue except for those who want to level every single skill in the game even though you wouldn't be able to perk them out.

idk if anybody else knows this but if you're using a flame or frostbite spell you can cast it forever... at least i can... so give that a try "destro mages". oh yeah and this works with wards too

scratch that i have know idea why this works for me... but i just told my cousin to try this right now (he's literally only 2 ft away from my computer) and it didn't work for him. idk why.

Nail on the head.

And to the people critizing the OP for using summons and mercs for his magical protection needs... seriously, wtf is wrong with you? No, I don't have a counter arguement or something more eloquent than that, just: wtf.

Warriors are dudes who pick up axes and over time learn to use them. Mages and thieves are people who have to carefully hone their craft, a more difficult way of defeating an enemy by not running right at them, but finding a way to exploit something outside the norm. If you don't find fun in what your doing, because you know one day you'll be a BAMF for it... well then you are on the wrong path.

So, do you think that is a good or bad thing? I would say a good thing.The all powerful mage reliant on the destruction school simply gets boring to me - a little like a well equipped melee character. It reduces the need to "think" your way through encounters

i think we have to admit two facts

1. destruction itself as a main dealing skill of mage archetype has relatively smaller part in skyrim than oblivion.

2. pure mage is viable with high difficulty if he uses. multiple schools of magic

that said, i think disappearance of major skill is causing all this confusion. in oblivion and morrowind we had to pick 7 skills.before we started our game we defined ourselves around these 7skills. some maybe more important but we were ok with the idea of utilizing.multiple skills.

now that major skill is gone and perks somewhat emphasizes a leading role of one main skill we suddenly feel we have to define our character with one skill. if warrior one hand. if mage destruction etc.

i think beth assumed we would accept skills similar to how we did in oblivion. but in reality perks made us cling to one skill that can get so much better(all perks sound much cooler than oblivion). i still think destruction needs some improvement, just saying the destruction design(lack of means to boost its damage) might have come from the assumption that players will spread their priorities like in oblivion regardless of perks.

Not the nail on the head. To be clear I am not saying any of the following:

- that relying solely on Destruction is a viable way of playing
- that other schools of magic should not be used in conjunction with and as complement to Destruction
- that I am struggling badly with the game
- that I am not enjoying the game

I have a few main issues:

1) That destruction magic is an expensive use of Magicka relative and the damage it causes
2) Recognising that it is a mages primary (not only, but definitely the main one) offensive skill, it is underpowered when compared to one handed, two handed and archery
3) That the magicka pool regenerates too slowly when in combat - I don't understand why the regeneration penalty is so severe

SiegfriedWagner - it's a good question, for sure. I enjoy thinking my way around problems, definitely. I don't disagree with what you're getting at in any respect. I wouldn't want a game the simply required you to fire endless streams of bombs at opponents - that would be boring.

I still think however that the ability to increase the damage of destruction spells at a cost to magicka would be no bad thing. Being over powered is just as pointless as being under powered. I just don't think that in the specific context of destruction they have it quite right. Not far off, like I say it's a great game, just not quite there

HoleMole - really good post

You see, I don't find it severe at all. If you have ever had to sit and "meditate" out of battle as the only means of regaining your mana pool you would know what Imean. And if you add to this the ever present and easily found mana potions found lying around - remembering that in Skyrim the game is paused and the mana regain instant - and I would say that mana regain is the opposite of severe and a tad to easy

Nah, that's a good idea, as long as there is a significant cost for doing it. Although personally I think it should rely on older Bethesda systems, like 'weakness to [insert damage type]' potions or spells, or just more powerful versions of the same spell, like the basic healing spell in Oblvion and it's meatier but more costly counterpart for example.

+ mana regen items are bugged. So your magicka doesnt regenerate that fast. Also conjuration is powerful, thats why your doing alright. But there is 0 reason for a warrior not to get conjuration too, so think how powerful that is.

maybe alchemy is a must for mage build? I've noticed my novice alchemy with no perks restore magicka potion gives 22 magicka, whereas decent alchemy and perks can give easily over 90 magicka per potion. now that's efficient.

I see. I would disagree but understand your argument. Time to wait for a mod

Do the magicka regen enchantments work at all though? I'm not sure either way.

Don't get me wrong (this always happens on message boards) I'm really enjoying the game, it's great, it's just a comment that because of several "well you're a crap mage then, you need to do this...." type comments, I've ended up coming across like it's more of an issue than it is.

On Master or Expert, I've found several instances where something which on the face of it shouldn't be too difficult, has proven to be a real bastard to take down. Draugr Warlords - I don't like them! Not when about 5 come at your at once anyway

look at you making rules for your own thread, haha

For those that think magic is balanced try what I call "The Battlemage Experiment" Past Elderscrolls games have prominently featured a class called the Battlemage basically a heavily armored warrior that uses destruction spells instead of a weapon.

What I propose is that someone attempt to play what is effectively a pure warrior type, Armor, Block, Smithing, etc, you can even enchant your gear if you want since so many warriors do it, but instead of using a conventional weapon use destruction spells.

The point being to test if destruction spells are a viable alternative to a conventional weapon.

Yes, those of us good at math know the results, but let those in doubt try it out.

That said, as a Level 38 Warrior with very high smithing I have yet to see my Damage reach the heights some people describe for high end destruction, though I have seen the numbers I know the potential of high end equipment.

@Holemole: Yes, I would agree. But then in ES I always develop alchemy highly in my mages. I have always thought it is a central skill. I also hate buying mana potions in any game. Far to lazy to keep running back to a store . But also, and perhaps more seriously, I think Beth has made crafting a far more important part of Skyrim then previously.

I have no dog in this hunt because I haven't tried a mage yet, but I don't think the pillow fighting anology works.

If there was a "pillow weapon" specialization and tree to use, then choosing to be a pure pillow fighter should be a viable option. But since there isn't, obviously you shouldn't use pillows.

There is, however, a destruction specialization tree, so it should be a viable option if you choose to spec deep in it. Maybe it is, I don't have experience with it yet. Especially in an RPG where "you are what you play".

In other words, no one appears to be complaining that they are weak because they chose a fighting method that the game doesn't present as an option (pillows). Just the opposite. Using pillows would obviously be a bad choice since the game doesn't support it. Destruction however is a staple specialization. And as such shouldn't be compared to "using pillows" or fighting with no armor.

Every class would be OP once lv50 LOL, the problem with mages imo is that they are BORING.. poor customization ( no spell making ) / poor animations / you can't lv novice spells / dual casting is useless

yeah im realizing that too. Even if we don't grind on 100 alchemy/smithing/enchanting and make our sword do 500 damage a swing, I've come to conclusion that mastering of at least one crafting skill is a must if to survive;;

makes me wonder even more why spell crafting is out

I'm not sure if it was in this thread, but I made the exact same point earlier.

That's where destruction lets you down IMO