leveled items killed it for me : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:02 am

We all know that a level 35 character is not a fixed level of combat power. There is too much variation. Since I'm smithing and enchanting, the leveled items are all pretty much useless to me. They would be better if they leveled with you. Then someday, dragonbane might be useful.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:06 am

i was having a blast for a while, then i checked the uesp wiki and saw leveled items.

Problem detected.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:49 pm

We all know that a level 35 character is not a fixed level of combat power. There is too much variation. Since I'm smithing and enchanting, the leveled items are all pretty much useless to me. They would be better if they leveled with you. Then someday, dragonbane might be useful.

Even if they leveled with you they would still be useless, since they can never match the damage or enchantments of self-made gear. Without crafting they're (significantly, in some cases) more useful, so having them not be leveled would make more sense, but they will eventually obsolesce no matter what.

The good part of having them being leveled is that a low-level character obtaining one cannot just stomp all over the opposition for an extended period, however that does reduce the motivation to explore for some folks, since they cannot find that one 'special' item that makes dealing with a particularly nasty dungeon crawl worth the hassle. There is, unfortunately, no good solution to this, since making such items not available early means early exploration isn't very rewarding, but making them available early means there's no longer any challenge in obtaining more.

Sealing them behind powerful guardians doesn't work, because then you have the contradictory situation of either not needing them if you can actually obtain one of them, or being forever unable to get any of them because you need one of them to do so in the first place. Quest-gating works up to a point, however once a quest has been dissected on the forums and wiki then anyone can just waltz in and get the thing unless there's a level requirement, which in turn causes complaints about being artificially blocked from experiencing content at one's own pace. Essentially, we're asking for powerful items to be difficult to acquire yet potentially be obtained at an early level, which is a contradiction in terms and utterly impossible to design for.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:35 am

Indeed. And this is, IMO, more fun that knowing that largely every cave is just right for your level and will contain a reward chest somewhere inside that is just right for your level. Also, if you do this or that epic quest then the enemies will be just right for your level and the reward will fit your level. Which means it will be garbage 15 level-ups from now. That's just not all that fun and it doesn't make much sense either.

What I'd like to see is discretely leveled enemies combined with a good number of set enemies and of course no leveled items ever. It's okay that more generic enemies such as bandits or trolls or various deviant mages get stronger as I gain levels, as long as it's not taken to ridiculous extremes. It's insane to have bandits in glass armor but having both a level 10 and a level 20 base version of a common bandit, with largely the same equipment except maybe grindstone / workbench improved, and the skills and perks you'd expect from a level 20 bandit. Rather than going beyond that sort of scaling, I'd prefer to see raw numbers of bandits increase. If you're level 60 rather than 20 then instead of one bandit leader and three bandits, there's now two leaders, five bandits, a couple of marauders, and maybe a master bandit.

The advantage here is that instead of a few stupidly strong enemies that make absolutely no damn sense, you still get a difficult fight but at least it's kind of epic. One on one you'd crush them easily, but it's not a one on one battle. This approach is tried and trusted and it worked brilliantly in the IE games. Take BG2, for instance. At low levels you'd meet a mummy or a fledgling vampire or a gauth. At high levels you'd meed a horde of zombies lead by a drowned dead (or maybe just a lich), an older vampire with a posse, or an elder orb with a few beholder friends tagging along. What would be an iron golem at low levels would be an adamantite golem at high levels. This kept the game somewhat challenging regardless of the order you decided to do things in, at least for the average player.

Of course, it has to be said that static enemies combined with the odd bit of Skyrim level design that blocks you from retreating is not the best idea.

Very good post. I agree, including the part about BG2. (I've always wondered why game developers never did a real study on which factors exactly made Baldur's Gate such a legendary succes. )

But yes also to your conclusion. In an unscaled skyrim players shoumld always be able to retreat if they enter into a dungeon they cannot cope with yet. (so nothing like "Escape from Cidhna Mine", jumping into a pit, ...).

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:08 am

What about the other end you go on this big huge quest and you get a crappy reward.
Find a linear RPG game if you don't want leveled rewards.

OP is referring to unique items. I have no problem with random leveled loot. But unique leveled loot is the absolute worst thing for a 100% completionist like me and the OP because you can ever get one copy and your 100% is broken because of it. This makes the game a guide dang it game.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:32 am

I find this "leveled items" gripe coming more from the players who play this game to statiscally be the best, not to actually enjoy the game to its fullest.

Let me put it this way:

Skyrim is my first forray into the Elder Scrolls universe. I've heard of Marrowind and Oblvion, but have never played them. Skyrim actually grabbed my attention so, I read into its backstory a little to find out what it was all about and what made it so good. The main thing I'd always find is "the amount of freedom and exploration" this game offers. Truthfully, I don't even bother looking at a weapons stats because to be quite honest, I'm playing this game for the adventure. I've learned that even if you don't have the highest damage output weapon, you can still fend for yourself and still make it through the game.

The first character I made was a Wood Elf Archer, and he wore strictly Elven Armor with an Elven Bow, because that was the character I made him to be, and I was still able to handle most quest and dungeons just fine. The character I'm playing now is a Breton Destruction Mage with nothing but the Archmages Robes and some personalized fur bracers and boots. Why? Because thats how I want them to look, and I can still fend for myself, even with the weak attributes of the armor and weapons I have. Albiet some were challenging, but isn't that what the game is supposed to do? Challenge you? If you worry about not grabbing a certain item because "if I wait 5 more levels, it'll be even better" then your missing the point.

Play this game to experience what is has to offer on all levels, not just soley on how high the number is on the "Damage" statistic of that sword or bow. Hell, if your smithing is high enough, you can upgrade everything to Legendary and actually bring it up on par to the level you are at, so why does it matter so much?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:28 am

I find this "leveled items" gripe coming more from the players who play this game to statiscally be the best, not to actually enjoy the game to its fullest.

Actually the min-maxer does not care for most found items in game because they are far surpassed by player crafted item.

It only matters to the completionist.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:56 am

my friends dragon bane does an extra 40 damage while mine does a measly 25. his also last much longer before needing recharging.

Whaaaa - man up son

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:00 am

i was having a blast for a while, then i checked the uesp wiki and saw leveled items.

Problem detected.

Dementor wins.

This isn't the game design's fault; it's your fault for being a min-maxing munchkin. They didn't turn it into WoW by giving you rewards appropriate to your level; you turned it into WoW by making the decision to metagame.

Put the wiki away; in fact put the whole internet away. Forget about how much damage some other dude is doing with "your" sword. Go back to playing the game and having fun. This is an imaginary problem, and if you stop thinking about it, it will go away. Not kidding.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:05 pm

Dementor wins.

This isn't the game design's fault; it's your fault for being a min-maxing munchkin. They didn't turn it into WoW by giving you rewards appropriate to your level; you turned it into WoW by making the decision to metagame.

Put the wiki away; in fact put the whole internet away. Forget about how much damage some other dude is doing with "your" sword. Go back to playing the game and having fun. This is an imaginary problem, and if you stop thinking about it, it will go away. Not kidding.

*high five* Perfect. You said it so much better than I could have. I kept trying to post something, but it never came out right....

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:57 am

I have to champion this cause as well, the game is so easy and fragile that even a little min-maxing and smithing will break it.

play the game and dont worry if that shiny sword would have done 20 more damage if you had just waited a few more levels. Theres a very reasonableb balance betwen power gaming and role playing and you can certainly dabble in both.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:29 am

Actually the min-maxer does not care for most found items in game because they are far surpassed by player crafted item.

It only matters to the completionist.

I have to quote my own quote because some of posters directly above this one can't read.

THE MINMAXER/POWERGAMER/MUNCHKIN DOES NOT CARE ABOUT LEVELED ITEMS BECAUSE HE CAN CRAFT SOMETHING TEN TIMES BETTER.

The completionist is the person who suffers.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:17 pm

I have to quote my own quote because some of posters directly above this one can't read.

THE MINMAXER/POWERGAMER/MUNCHKIN DOES NOT CARE ABOUT LEVELED ITEMS BECAUSE HE CAN CRAFT SOMETHING TEN TIMES BETTER.

The completionist is the person who suffers.

This is very true. I was actually surprised when (even with the mod that makes all the leveled items their strongest version) I got a unique item that was actually worth using (chillrend). All the others just go up on a weapon plaque to be displayed. And I wasn't even min/maxing, just using a glass sword and mace that I smithed and enchanted myself with no alchemy/enchanting/smithing exploit loop. I still get annoyed if I get a weak version of something even though it's only going to be displayed in one of my houses.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:50 pm

why the hell does it even matter if you dont have the best equipment? it is not a hard game just have fun you said it yourself you were having a blast playing the game until you suddenly realized there was a slightly better version of your weapon you could not get and if you want a game without level scaling you should look elsewere, becuase it has been here since daggerfall

I'll have to agree. Especially since all my "rewarded" items are either disenchanted, sold or on display. Daedric/Ebony weapons are usually better when smithed/enchanted by me anyways.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:14 pm

You guys are such utter whiners, it makes me vomit. You have TONS of gaming to do, no matter how you slice it, and if its too easy or hard, change the friggin difficulty first. Worthless post.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:00 pm

You guys are such utter whiners, it makes me vomit. You have TONS of gaming to do, no matter how you slice it, and if its too easy or hard, change the friggin difficulty first. Worthless post.

And the award for the winner of i-only-read-the-title-and-decide-to-put-in-my-two-cents-poster belongs to you. Worthless post indeed.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:11 am

Do consider how much sense there is in getting a unique and supposedly powerful quest reward for something that wasn't overly easy, and then realising that you're better off using that dented elven shield that you can improve more on a workbench. That's the problem with leveled items. Epic rewards just aren't epic at all. Rather they're complete garbage and makes you wonder why anyone would bother keeping them for all that long, since every other smith seems to have something with comparable or better enchantments.

Epic rewards and epic loot should be epic, but it isn't when you level scale everything. The consequence is that all your questing is really done to gather the funds to level your own crafting abilities and make your own damn equipment.

I got your point, and it is a fair one. But, i think that they made a choice that will always displease some people. If the epic items were better than the ones you make by smithing + enhanting, people who like smithing/enchanting would complain that their skill became useless in late game... I personally prefer playing without smithing and without enchant so these epic weapons really feel like epic weapons. (sorry about my english)

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:10 pm

I got your point, and it is a fair one. But, i think that they made a choice that will always displease some people. If the epic items were better than the ones you make by smithing + enhanting, people who like smithing/enchanting would complain that their skill became useless in late game... I personally prefer playing without smithing and without enchant so these epic weapons really feel like epic weapons. (sorry about my english)

It's a question of balance. If they made the unique weapons only slightly better than the best weapon you can make from smithing, then I doubt people will complain that smithing is useless.

It seems to me that they simply didn't spend enough time looking at balance issues properly. Feels like they kind of rushed this one.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:16 am

actually there are not so many leveled items in Skyrim as you may think. For example Nightingale armor is the only leveled armor in the game

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:30 pm

why the hell does it even matter if you dont have the best equipment? it is not a hard game just have fun you said it yourself you were having a blast playing the game until you suddenly realized there was a slightly better version of your weapon you could not get

and if you want a game without level scaling you should look elsewere, becuase it has been here since daggerfall

I don't recall level scaling in Morrowind, in fact I believe the lack-thereof was a major complaint from the community.

Personally I liked Morrowind best, and partly because there was no level scaling. End game felt far more rewarding that way. I did not spend countless painstaking hours leveling my skills only to find them matched by every mob I encountered. I found I could actually compete with the likes of Vivec and Her Hands Guards with my maxed out skills. That's the way it should be. A game should always feel fun and rewarding, not like a chore or a major letdown when you spend 20+ hours on a quest chain only to get the gimped version of the reward, or 200+ hours maxing your skills only to find common bandits have become Bandit Gods. The only exception I can see to this is gold rewards. They should scale, otherwise items should not, mobs should not, that's what the difficulty slider is for.

This auto scaling system forces the player to play the game a specific way, which is a big NO, especially in a single player rpg. Many people have said this isnt an MMORPG why should you care about the scaling, well that's just the argument against scaling too. There's only one person you have to appeal to as far as balance is concerned and that is the player himself.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:05 am

I don't recall level scaling in Morrowind, in fact I believe the lack-thereof was a major complaint from the community

The complain was mainly about the lack of areas accessible only to high level characters. Loot was part static, part random and leveled. But most of the stuff in dungeons was static so it was possible, for example, to get a Daedric helm and a glass halberd early in the game if you knew where to look for.

I don't recall lot of complaining about that aspect. When you replay your game for the 2nd or the 3rd time it's not about discovering but playing the same quests from another point of view, planning a different character, different skills.

Level scaling makes very difficult to judge you character progression and random loot may help or hinder the player randomly which is very frustrating. It also defeats the purpose of dungeon dwelling because in Skyrim there are 3-4 types of dungeons that repeats themselves. Take away the urge of completing a quest or the purpose of getting a unique item and gone is the driving force behind the players descending into the same dungeon at each successive playthrough (other than grinding... which is an unnatural and tedious process)

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:44 am

I hated leveled loot in Oblivion because "rare" weapons and armor became common after you reached a certain level.

In Skyrim what loot you get really means nothing. Want Daedric? Make it. Want Dwemer or Glass? Make it. Smithing made leveled loot a non issue. You can just make the best stuff now.

Forever gone are the days of risking your butt and discovering that rare piece of Daedric armor buried deep in tombs/caves/ruins as a reward.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:14 am

The scaling as already less severe than in Oblivion (which was the target of a lot of criticism). But I would rather not have any at all. Scaling isn't beneficial for the immersion, the suspension of disbelief.

Thing is, the scalings prettymuch the same as Oblivion, its just cosmetically hidden. Sure you don't meet Wolves with 2000 hit points, instead you meet Elder Snow Bears or whatever. But you meet them *everywhere*. The roads around Whiterun go from having a few wolves prowling, or wandering skeevers to suddenly being roamed by Saber Cats and Cave Bears constantly. You don't run into Bandits with glass armor, instead you still hit Bandits that have iron armor that somehow has Glass armor stats. I'd almost weigh in favor of Oblivion, as while you'd never get that wolf to be harmless, at least you wouldn't fight 700 bears in a row once you cross level 30.

Treasure scaling I'm prettysure is exactly the same as Oblivon, enemy loot aside (where you still find iron crud on the bandit that was just hitting you for 100+ a shot as referenced above)

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:27 am

I hated leveled loot in Oblivion because "rare" weapons and armor became common after you reached a certain level.

The concept was (and still is) fundamentally sound, as the idea was (is) to prevent low-level characters from obtaining a bunch of end-game gear, however the actual implementation in Oblivion was craptastic as you ended up practically drowning in Daedric weapons and armor past about level 30 or so.

In Skyrim what loot you get really means nothing. Want Daedric? Make it. Want Dwemer or Glass? Make it. Smithing made leveled loot a non issue. You can just make the best stuff now.

Forever gone are the days of risking your butt and discovering that rare piece of Daedric armor buried deep in tombs/caves/ruins as a reward.

They pretty much painted themselves into a corner with the addition of crafting; the stuff we can make has to be at least comparable to the stuff we can find, or nobody will bother making it, but at the same time the stuff we can find needs to be at least as good as the stuff we can make in order for it to be worth going after. As a result, no matter what they do one of the two groups (crafters and seekers) will lose out, with the inevitable cascade of (justified) complaints.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:50 am

And turn it into WoW? No thank you. Must be level 19 to use this staff I bought at level 15?! $@%&!!

that's not what i'm talking about. i'm saying you should be able to use any item at any level and the items stats should be the same no matter what level you are.