Well that's what you get from reading too much information and spoilers before actually playing through the game discovering things for yourself. If you hadn't known about the level requirements for leveled gear you wouldn't have cared and would probably have enjoyed the game more those play troughs. After that, and after you've gained knowledge, it's easier to build your perfect character from scratch, obviously.

I'm fine with leveled items. It sort off prevents the player (me) from getting too much omfgbbq gear way before he/she's actually leveled up enough to warrant demi-god status, and then complaining the game's too easy. Bethesda could have made them level up with the player though. Also, sorry for the console players but I'm sure we'll get mods that deal with the leveled items fairly quickly once the Creation Kit gets released.

Well, when I say "main appeal" I don't mean it's the ONLY appeal. Ofcourse the character development and quests add to the appeal too but personally, improving my character's performance through the acquisition of ever more powerful items is one of the major sources of enjoyment when I play an RPG.

This kind of ties into your next question. The reason I leveled smithing and enchanting so soon is simply because I could. The fact that I enjoy improving my character with items meant that I could not pass up on the opportunity to give him the best items I can. If you won the lottery and enjoy driving fast cars, you would not start off by buying a slow car and work your way up, you would buy a Ferrari straight away because you can. It's kind of the same for me in the game. I was (wrongly IMO) given the opportunity early on, so I used it.

For me the game would be much better if there were a lot more unique items in the game, which are more powerful than any of the stuff you can make through smithing. If they capped smithing at the steel level (provided that they drastically increased the variety and stats range of steel items you can make), then allowed you to acquire the more powerful items (such as dwarven, orcish, daedric) only through questing/exploration, then that would have added another level of appeal to the game.

It kind of makes sense as well. How on earth could you even find out how to make dwarven/daedric items? No other smiths in the country could make items like that, so why should you?

I miss morrowind.

Sure you could get that daedric spear at level 6, but your chance to hit was determined by your skill lvl. You still only had 65 hp or whatever, so it's not like you could march up to an ordinator or divayth fyr and jack his [censored]. On paper, it would look like you you're just flailing around until you hit something, and by your good fortune it died when you finally hit it. For armour, the ac rating given scaled with your skill, so no out of proportion stuff there. The odd 'cast when used' spell effect item might be op, but with no enchanting skill, it would run out right quick, and be useless until you could get to a safe area and wait for it to recharge.

There were a ton of placed items that you could consider op, but getting them was usually incredibly dangerous (anybody ever jack the vaults in vivec?), and therefor fit a risk/reward ratio.

And that's why level scaling has always seemed stupid to me. I remember by the end of oblivion, i would just run past dremora's because i didnt feel like spending 5 minutes bashing my poor equipment on it's face because the game decided i needed a challange for my lvl. Or when starting a char, deciding to try something epic, and finding it scaled down horribly to the point of being pointless.

Open world shouldn't mean everything has to be nerfed until you earn your big boy pants. If you can accomplish something disproportionately difficult for your level, you should be given the same reward to match it than if you were at the proper level. I just wish they'd give us that chance to invent those kinds of challenges again, rather than making everything scale so every experience is exactly the same as the last.

I agree, I don’t like leveled weapons and gear either. But after a while, I realized that I can make my own gear that’s MORE powerful than the “unique” leveled gear anyway. Because I made it myself, and spent the time needed to naturally train and practice my Smithing and Enchanting (notice I didn’t say spam Iron daggers to train) my weapons are even more special to me than the quest rewards. So, I still like (and want) the quest rewards as “collectors items or artifacts”, I just don’t usually use them.

I agree with the OP.

I think it would be fine if a dungeon with a high level item in it would have high level enemies in it as well. I don't think you need to put a limit on a quest (like OB's daedric quests, "You must be at least level 20 to do this quest").

I think it worked in Morrowind. You could walk into a cave and find creatures that were much more powerful than you. I think the guy with Umbra was a static level, seemed to work fine for me. You could walk by a daedric ruin at level 1 and have Frost Atronach's and Dremora Lords walking around. Got too close you got killed.

I don't think that just because the game is an "open world" doesn't mean you can do everything at anytime. I was fine in MW with Guilds that had skill level requirements to move up the ranks too. Don't need to be the Archmage at level 2.

yep i 100% AGREE with OP

as soon as i noticed all the gear levelling up i lost interest

i know its a game but it seems so unrealistic that everything evolves around me

as soon as i get better magically everything else in the world does too
as soon as i get an item ,agically every1 else in the world gets it also.


pfft so lame

im just waiting for some realism mods -- CK? --well i doubt we will be seeing the CK anytime soon!!

Problem with an open world with no level scaling is that it restrict where you go, would probably work in Skyrim because the mountains channel you anyway.

Main problem with the thief guild is that some do it in the beginning other at max level.
Simplest solution, is that you could give the nightingale gear to somebody and get an upgraded version back, the nightingale set is half of the leveled items anyway. And you can upgrade the thief guild armor.

Except for this the problem is much less than in Oblivion.

Thank you all for posting spoliers in the non-spoliers forums. Thanks for letting me know what gear is the best. Thank you all.

Except Skyrim and OOO have very similar level scaling.


I used to think like that. Then i found a Dragonplate helmet on level 36 But apart from the occasional overleveled item like that you find from the boss chest, all you find is vendor trash.

anyway, level scaled loot and items svck. For us PC users http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2604 by our da mage gives you the most powerful version of the leveled items regardless of your level. Makes tackling those bosses early worth the effort. Also, there's always an enemy with an Ebony Sword at Arcwind Point

This is one of these threads that I better not comment on other peoples comments or my warning bar will be regenerating quicker than it does in skyrim by the mods.

OOO mod did it right. Nothing levels with you. Hand placed special loot that is commensurate with the level of the creatures you need to get through to get it. More like Morrowind.

Can you kill the guys in the first room of a dungeon at level 5? Probably. Can you delve into the deepest depths of the dungeon and kill the deepest enemies you find at level 5? Probably not. That's just simple RPG realism that truly draws you in. You come back at a later level to tackle the ancient or strong creatures you will find.

Stay near the main roads and you find patrols and relative safety. Start heading off the main paths into the wilderness and you encounter wild dangers that will test your mettle.

Vanilla Oblivion and Skyrim really doesn't have that. Yeah a tough ice wolf, saber cat, or bear will attack, but they attack just as much on the roads as they do in the wilderness. The entire world revolves around you and your strength. Everything you can steal, find, or loot from your equal level enemies is nothing that will give you a wow factor because at that level, merchants are selling the same stuff.

How many spells can only be gotten from questing? How many armor pieces can only be found through questing?

Honestly, I think you either do it the Morrowind way (and the OOO way) where if you are lucky enough to find it, you are a lucky guy who gets to use it, or you do it like Diablo. "oh, I found this awesome daedric chest piece, but it says I lack the skill to wear it until my heavy armor is at 90 skill."

I still enjoy the game and I still loot the chests hoping to find an upgrade, but I can feel the lack of realism behind the "world revolves around your level" style of building an RPG and it's just not as cool. There really should be things I can't do and creatures I can't hope to tackle until I grow into the world around me. Outside of the few and far between giant camps and occasional tough dragons, there really isn't much of that.

... sounds like someone played too much of those MMOrpg's and now has no idea how to RP?

if they level capped/requiremented things then all of my characters would be screwed. literally. I follow a different path and go to different things on each one to KEEP this from turning into WoW. I have one who had completed all three of her "main quest lines" before level 17 and another that I deleted when I realized that the monsters weren't getting any harder anymore and I'd managed to cap her out without getting to experience 1/2 of the things I'd wanted to because I overleveled her professions.

I'm sick of games with signs by the doors like amusemant parks "must have this gear score, be this level and must have at least these things to get inside." Screw you and your min-capping stuff for me. All it does is set some of us up to struggle to get in and give the snots who rule the roost all the numbers they need to play popularity contest.

Thank you Bethesda for leveled weapons appropriate to the level they were gotten at. Unlike some of the players out there I don't have any misguided ideals about how the epicness of my weapon equates to my personal epicness outside of the game. Keep giving me opportunities that I can explore at level 5 on one character and at level 50 on another. I love that some of my characters are so epic they have kickbutt swords that took other characters 30 more levels to get.

"did it for you" and "quit playing rpgs" and yet here you are... peeing in the pool anyway.

perhaps "bethesda please level items with character progression" as a subject and then your post? Maybe start with the Please please please, Bethesda... I've quit playing so many RPG's over things like this... (no details) and then suggest how to fix it?

something that begins and ends with a plea and not a lot of complaining like a nerd rage fit?

I understand and actually appreciate your point, I don't personally find it as frustrating as I find you ranting in open forums after stopping playing the game... and... it's your right to have an opinion.

Just please... take it to them in the tone and format that might not be ignored as ranting and maybe they'll "hear" you.

With the difference that at that level the average player already has a full set of enchanted Daedric...





1) Good Roleplaying elements and good RPG elements are 2 things that are completely different and are not mutually exclusive in any way
2) Most of the good MMORPGs are superior to Skyrim in both roleplaying and RPG elements anyway, so please do Skyrim a favor and don't compare it with them.

Do consider how much sense there is in getting a unique and supposedly powerful quest reward for something that wasn't overly easy, and then realising that you're better off using that dented elven shield that you can improve more on a workbench. That's the problem with leveled items. Epic rewards just aren't epic at all. Rather they're complete garbage and makes you wonder why anyone would bother keeping them for all that long, since every other smith seems to have something with comparable or better enchantments.

Epic rewards and epic loot should be epic, but it isn't when you level scale everything. The consequence is that all your questing is really done to gather the funds to level your own crafting abilities and make your own damn equipment.

Why would it restrict where you go? You don't have to have "zones" that are leveled, like the Reach is for levels 15-25 or the area around Falkreath is level 40-50 or something.

But Yngols Barrow, for a certain quest, might be level 15-25. So if you go in there at level 5 you will have trouble.

And I don't see why someone would be giving out a quest (with a unique item in it as a reward) at level 1 when the reward is level 40. Dont have to do that will all unique items, but some quests might not spawn (radiantly) until you reach a certain level. Kind of like having a Courier give you a note "from a friend" saying there is a powerful artifact you might be interested in.

You could, as suggested, give out the quest and in the quest journal say, "A level of 40 is suggested before attempting this quest", but if you get the quest at level 1 and want to try it, good luck because there is a Dragon Priest waiting at the end of it.

I'm not sure what level ranges has to do with MMORPG's specifically. Everquest was my first MMO and that came out in the late 90's. In the mid to late 80's, I was playing games like dragon quest, ultima 1, final fantasy 1, etc. You didn't dare enter certain areas until you were the level to get there.

I can express my distain for leveled loot and creatures without the insults. I don't recall insulting the people who enjoy this style of gameplay, I was only insulting the gameplay itself.

But please, continue to come off as a very angry and unpleasant person. By all means, continue to insult my opinion about things that you disagree with.

The scaling as already less severe than in Oblivion (which was the target of a lot of criticism). But I would rather not have any at all. Scaling isn't beneficial for the immersion, the suspension of disbelief.

I love this game, like I loved Oblivion, but I would glad if someone made a mod like Oscuro (OOO) did for Oblivion. It made for a complete new game experience.

Baldur's Gate was a good example of an unscaled open world. You could go and try to kill Firkraag or Kangaxx at level 1, but your chances of survival would be very, very slim.

All open rpg has this problem, world of warcraft is much larger than skyrim and very balanced. However most of the quest rewards or loot at worse then that you have.
Simply because you find a lot of random loot and is always only interested in things who are better than that you have.

Probably better to do as in Morrowind, you has to do lots of radiant filler quests and be skilled in relevant skills to get to the guild quests with good loot.
Yes if you focus a lot on the guild you can get where pretty quick, at high level it's also pretty easy as your skills are higher. but becoming archmage require that you know your magic

Yet i don't even have the Ebony Smithing perk yet.

MMOrpg as in lower case rpg by comparrison to the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE portion of the acronym. WoW is most hideously responsible for the player-limiting level and gear capped amusemant park style playing and is still not the only example I was implying.

The suggestion to have the quest level itself or show the level range of the objective in the quest log is by far less offensive to me than to just make me flow through pre-set areas with a map showing shaded areas by level like those other games do.

I actually LIKE stumbling into a barrow and struggling to get through it only to find out later that it was for chracters 5 levels over me. WOOT... how kickbutt am I for making it? If I'd known before I went in the temptation to give in until later would be far greater and the experience far less rewarding for me. I wont pretend that I haven't had moments when something was so far over me that I couldn't get it done, I just mean that I'd rather get there and have to come back after trying everything I knew than know in advance that the programmers decided how many levels each of my characters has to get, what order they have to do things and what level ends my advancement in the game.

As I said before... my objection was to the tone and message of the posts and less to the concept of leveled items. The most awesome thing about this game is that how you play and how I play can be so different and we can both still find a really rewarding gaming experience from it. We don't ever have to queue for the same dungeon and deal with our differing ideals to get the job done.

I think the game should be a mixture of both leveled and set items. A lot of people complain about Skyrim getting too easy once you hit a certain level. Having the ability to get epic items at the begining of the game only would serve to make the game easier even sooner.

Indeed. And this is, IMO, more fun that knowing that largely every cave is just right for your level and will contain a reward chest somewhere inside that is just right for your level. Also, if you do this or that epic quest then the enemies will be just right for your level and the reward will fit your level. Which means it will be garbage 15 level-ups from now. That's just not all that fun and it doesn't make much sense either.

What I'd like to see is discretely leveled enemies combined with a good number of set enemies and of course no leveled items ever. It's okay that more generic enemies such as bandits or trolls or various deviant mages get stronger as I gain levels, as long as it's not taken to ridiculous extremes. It's insane to have bandits in glass armor but having both a level 10 and a level 20 base version of a common bandit, with largely the same equipment except maybe grindstone / workbench improved, and the skills and perks you'd expect from a level 20 bandit. Rather than going beyond that sort of scaling, I'd prefer to see raw numbers of bandits increase. If you're level 60 rather than 20 then instead of one bandit leader and three bandits, there's now two leaders, five bandits, a couple of marauders, and maybe a master bandit.

The advantage here is that instead of a few stupidly strong enemies that make absolutely no damn sense, you still get a difficult fight but at least it's kind of epic. One on one you'd crush them easily, but it's not a one on one battle. This approach is tried and trusted and it worked brilliantly in the IE games. Take BG2, for instance. At low levels you'd meet a mummy or a fledgling vampire or a gauth. At high levels you'd meed a horde of zombies lead by a drowned dead (or maybe just a lich), an older vampire with a posse, or an elder orb with a few beholder friends tagging along. What would be an iron golem at low levels would be an adamantite golem at high levels. This kept the game somewhat challenging regardless of the order you decided to do things in, at least for the average player.

Of course, it has to be said that static enemies combined with the odd bit of Skyrim level design that blocks you from retreating is not the best idea.

The OP must not have played Oblivion, that game was full of level scaled items, Skyrim is much better in this regard. It's not perfect but much better then the previous games and there are some items that must be leveled scaled like Chillrend, wouldn't want a low level character getting the broken version of Chillrend.

Usually before posting something like this, you should check what part of the forums it is actually in. "Cheats, Hints, and Spoilers."