I don't remember what I posted in the previous thread, but now I think there is only one way for me to fully accept it - if it is a result of one of the endings of the game. I mean becoming a lich is basically the end of the road for you. It is THE pillar every necromancer wants to get on, their own wicked version of nirvana, lich is no longer a human and not just because it is not alive anymore, but because it is a dream come true, well a nightmare maybe :ahhh: . Also, if the main character becomes a lich than he or she becomes the lichiest lich there can be, the evil incarnate, so there are nomore choices to be made (and I would not accept the possibility of removing the curse, that would be just a plane lame climix spoiler). But if there is going to be more than one ending (I mean come on, how long can you keep up the "by the line" convention"? it will come back to kick you in the nutts at some point...) then I would gladly welcome lichdom as a possibility.

Damn it, Ainar. Just because one becomes a lich, doesn't make them evil :slap:

I voted yes just because it gives you the extra choice. If needs be you could have a minion that you can control for a limited time to go into towns and do your shopping. Or else have a dark and forboding town like Hackdirt only where thieves, murderers and those inclined to the darker magiks go to hang out and purchase goods unobtainable elsewhere. And I agrree that making one area better shouldn't necessarily be to the detriment of other facets of the game.

Yes because then there's way more freedom.

I dont see why not, but they'd have to be realistic about it, making it so that once your a lich nobody will talk to you or even be near you, you would have to send a minion like fortesque said if you wanted to shop. Becoming a Lich would really only be wise once youve completed all the quests though, because as has been said, there would be almost no more social interaction between you and other "normal" folks of Tamriel, would you stay around to chat if a lich strolled up and started chatting IRL?

Having a town like that would be very nice indeed. I think that in TES V we need some places that are nice and clean and orderly, some places that are dirty, corrupted and messy, some places that are almost holy, others that pretend to be and yet others taht are outright terrible.

But back to lichdom, I think that in the world of magic one's appearance should not metter so much. I guess that any lich should be given a possibility to disguise him/her-self. besides, if Beth puts some care to clothing and armour, how much will you know about a guy who commes to you wrapped in cloak and with a full helm on his head? Is he a vampire, a lich a tax collector or something worse?

Besides, if you become a lich, you proabbly will not have centuries to have this state settle, so you might look pretty normal. I mean, after the lichification, you do not have to be just a skeleton, you can keep your muscles, and skin until it dies off and for all we know, this may take some time.

Sure if the devs want it so, they can come up with billions of reasons why liches are impossible, the thing is that if they wish, they can come up with just enouch reasons why and how it CAN be done. And I for one would be glad if this possibility existed.

Since liches are hated by most sane people and would most likely be killed at sight, I se no reason for such an option to become a lich. And even if it would become possible I fear the developers would make it to easy to become one and therefore ruin the lore and probability of them. I mean it takes several years of studing and performing the dark magics to become a lich and how many actually play for even one ingame year?

Of course not, it's what leads to becoming a lich and what usually follows...I simply cannot imagine a "your friendly neighbourhood lich" type of creature. If you're going after lichdom it means you'd do anything to gain more power, ANYTHING and in order to actually become a lich you'll be forced to do A LOT of things that are considered evil...and besides I would rather be considered evil than stupid enough to not now the consequences of my own actions.

Heh...necromancy in a lich thread, ironic no? Anyways, yes if they could establish a well enough necromatic guild then yes.

Huzzah Huzzah!!!!

Show me where you got this kind of information? As far as I am aware, all it seemed to require is doing some ritual, put your soul in something, let your body decay, then go back in once everything is done. Hell, we ONLY know of 1 process, and all other liches that have been encountered that we were able to talk to did not seem to repeat the process verbatim. Also, not all liches desire power. Some do it to continue research, protect dangerous artifacts, give Arkay the middle finger. Remember, death to researchers is a GIANT inconvenience, because all those years of dedicated research are thrown out the window once they die.

I have never played other TES related game than Morrowind and Oblivion, so I can only build on those. In those two games we can see two kinds of liches. Ones, the more common are just another creatures that are hostile on sight. I agree that should something like this appear in the middle f the square, guards would get annoyed, most usualy due to the fact that such lich would go on a killing spree in a metter of seconds. There is, however, another kind of liches, presented in Morrowind. Those are guys you can talk to and usually they have a good reason to be where they are and to do what they did. I do not remember their names, but if you fish a bit in this thread you will be able to find them. From the conversation withthem you will see that they have retained much of their personality and sanity, which means that if the player undergoes the process of lichification, he, too, can still be a sensible creature and thus continue playing.

Sure the problem is that some regions of the empire hold a grudge agains undead. I'm not sure what the lore sais about necromancy in Skyrim, but for all I know, liches can be totally accepted there. Remember taht in the world of TES necromancy is not evil and is not illegal. But even if it is outlawed and even if the common folk would react badly to you, there is still the possibility of disguises, either magical or common. If you ever played Morrowind, you would know that vampires in that game culd not communicate with most NPCs and often would gain an aggressive reaction. Yet the possibility was in the game, so even if the devs decide not to allow liches to interact, they can still implement them in the game, the modders will take care of the rest

And lastly, refusing any gameplay option just because it "may turn out bad" is not a good argument. Anything can turn out bad. By this logic, the devs should not even attempt to make TES V, because it may be bad.



Again, I do not knwo about the previous games, but there is no hint either in Oblivion or in Morrowind that the process of becoming a lich involves soemthig bad. Those who become liches are fully aware of the consequences of the process, but beyond immortality, there are no other proven consequences. In the TES universe you can have multitude of reasons to follow the path leading to lichdom. Power is one, but not the only reason.

I fear that you base your arguments on lore of other games as well. I can remember games where your arguments would be right, butin the world of TES I fear you are wrong.

And as far as "your friendly neighbourhood lich" goes, if you become a lich, you probably will not be the kind of guywho would come to help an old lady to get her cat down from a tree, but there is a whole world between "good" and "evil". The fact that you choose not to be the goodest guy in TAmriel does not mean you cannot go on playing. And since you as a PC, not mention the you as a player, retain your mind even after the transforamtion you can do about anythig you wish. Even become a saint among liches, although that might be a bit hard to roleplay.

If a rotten walking corpse came up to you and started to talk to you, would you really just continue like everything is as it should be? Most likely no. I understand that liches can keep their sanity and act like regular humans, but they wouldn't be accepted by the rest of the population and they would still be treated like evil beast and attacked on sight.

I'm not against becoming a lich in the game as long as it's done in a proper and realistic way. This includes people keep distance to you or attack you and it should be really hard to become a lich. It shouldn't be something that can be done in a few ingame days, it should take years of hard studing and practice. And that is something that I doubt Bethesda will succed with and therefore my negative disposition towards pc lichdom.

I am basing my argument on nothing more than common sense. A person may had been whoever they wanted before becoming a lich, but after that it's over they're dead. What it means is they do not care for the world of the living unless they did what they did to get revenge after transformation. For that matter they probably didn't care for the living any more before becoming a lich, that's why they did it. In lichdom they don't feel anymore what they felt as a human, they shed their mortal shackles, all of them. They might however use logic(depends how crazy they were when alive...) and logically they might and they will encounter "obstacles" which they will simply remove. The process of becoming a lich may not invlve anything evil in itself but it takes a certain kind of person to undergo it and it sure doesn't make them more sensitive afterwards. I can't imagine becoming a lich being a selfless act, exactly because everyone knows the consequences and selfish acts of that magnitude do lead to evil at some point. So does immorality, there's a reason why so many immoral acts are forbidden by laws. Besides someone already wrote in this thread that you wouldn't be able to "enjoy" the full path of lichdom in the game, since one of the main advantages is longevity. So why would a player do it? You can easily get power through other means(and seeking power through any and all means possible isn't the act of even a chaotic character in my opinion, power demoralizes too). I think that would be the perfect opportunity to act evil and don't feel bad about it. Undead are only as bad as the one who controls them, that's why they're not regarded evil by definition in TES. But if the undead control themselves, they become hostile creatures which equals evil in the world of games. We may get into a dispute over the fact that even corpses need to eat and can you blame them for that, but in the end THEY F**IN' KILL PEOPLE and they target them as best nutrition, so they might not be purposedly evil but thir presence sure is. Ok, I might've gone a little bit too far there, but similar rules apply to liches, they don't have real morals, they might remember them, but they're not bound by them anymore. So why would you want to play a creature like that and not make use of the perks? To become a lich and then cry about doing it? While I'm not saying it couldn't have happened in the world of TES(one of the first liches probably was like that), but that's not RPG anymore, that's an emo symulator...an emolator,heh...

TES does not take place in real life. If an orc came to you in a street what would you do? I'm sure I would run in the oposit direction screeming, the same aplies to Khajiit and Argonians. Yet these are quite playable in TES. If you wish to say that liches would be feared on sight, provide a lore support for this. If the next TES take place in Skyrim, we know that Nords revive their own dead making them some kind of a zombie (they even have a special name for them, but I cannot remember now), so that would suggest that they are pretty much accustomed to dealing with undead.

Secondly, a lich does not have to look like a corps, there is no evidence that becoming a lich will strip you of your flesh and thirdly, even if it does, you can still disguise yourself as I have mentioned several times already.


The process of lichification should be something that takes time and is difficult to do, sure. The timescale, however, is a metter of debate. TES is known to have a terrible timescale. You can become a hero of the whole province from a total looser in something like 3 months in TES III and IV. If that is possible, why not becoming a lich as well. Besides, what should really take long is finding a way to make oneself a lich, as a player, you might be given this information, so the research does not bohther you.



Well, but common sense hardly applies here. We are discussing game mechanics. Half of the things in the game are against common sense. That is why this is a fantasy game and not a real life simulator. What remains of you after the ritual of lichification is up to the devs to decide. Remember, that you cannot compare the game liches to their real life counterparts as there are none.
From what we know so far, becoming a lich does not have to be illegal or immoral. And TES lore describes a case of someone who became a lich as a selfless act (or what is more selfless then protecting your village from demons, dspite the fact that your own tribesmen chased you off?), so again, you assumptions are counterd in the lore.
The purpose of becoming a lich is to gain more power, sure, but wanting to have more power does not mean that you are evil. before the election a president candidate wants more power too and not all presidents are evil. Power does not make you evil, the way you use it does. The second reason to become a lich is role playing. There is no greater goal my necromancer can achieve. And that is what the whole game is about, isn't it? About role playing.

You make an excellant point, being a lich does not make you evil you could use your powers for good.You could roleplay as you gain the power of immortality to cure disease,as your already undead the disease/poison would not effect you so you alone could risk more exposure. Another example is they could add a freeform quest to save tormented souls from wondering the plains of the living and you help them part with the mortal plain.

You can do that as a regular mortal. Heck, it's the premise of a lot of TES quests. Hell, it was part of the MQ in TESII

Actually, if you speak with the nords in Solstheim, they tell you upfront that those zombies are a complete abomination and are not protectors. The Skaal despise them for being a complete mockery of the All-Maker, and the guys at Thirsk hate encountering them, because they're zombies with the bloodthirst of a beserker. Here's the complete dialog offered by NPCs in BM of what they think of the draugr (the nord zombies):



The point of being a lich is so that your mortal shell is now a corpse that'll no longer give up on you, so you longer die a normal death. Basically, it is completely intended that when one wants to become a lich, they want to be a magically powerful undead being. Think of it almost like an immortal shell for the soul to remain in. Plus, in every freaking game, they are either skeletons or corpses with immense magical power.

Ok sounds ok I guess... but I say no unless you can give me some good reason just because this just sounds like something you would have to do if you were bored, because you said you wont be able to talk to people, people will hunt you, you basically cant go into cities cause guards are hostile, and you cant do certain quests. Sounds like fun... And the perks mostly sound like a well off mage. (except for the new faction and undead wont attack you)

Orcs, khajits and argonians are accepted races of Tamriel. Liches are undead beings that ,unless summoned and controlled by someone, are hated and will most likely be attacked on sight or fleed from. Now if liches are accepted by the communities why aren't there any walking around on the streets, buying things, having conversations and such? they are simply not welcome to the cities and villages. All liches that we have seen are rotten corpses that are hiding inside caves or tomb, no lich is walking around like a common person and thats why I assume all liches are rotten corpses.

Now if liches are playable shouldn't ghosts, zombies and mummies be playable as well?

I think it would be amazing if there were counter-guilds, which give you the choice to choose what faction you want to belong to. For instance, I would love to see both a Necromancer skill and Guild, (I have read just about every Necromancy book in-game), and I think that if there were a Necromancer's guild, it should be operated similar to the Dark Brotherhood, but instead of killing somebody to trigger Lucien to dind you, you would have to preform some lesser Necromancy.

A necromancy guild/skill could also greatly influence the entire idea of Lichdom.

:)

Personally, I'm all about more in-game freedoms. The more the merrier. Morrowind had lots of spears, I never used a spear. Never used throwing stars, throwing knives, darts, maces, waraxes, daggers, shortswords, clubs or halberds. But it was great having them around.
There were lots of spells I never used.
I think Necromancy is a powerful thing, if you're a powerful necromancer. Does that make any sense?
You know what I'm saying. Once you reach/attain a certain degree of power, there should be some very strange possibilities open to you. The gods are all high-and-mighty, but at least one of them has to notice that Johnny Frost-Face just reached 118th level, and has an amazing collection of legendary one-of-a-kind artifacts.
When the higher powers notice, there should be some new doors opening, is all I'm saying.
I'd be all for it, even if I never became a Lich.

Never played TESII sadly :cold: ... But anyway i mean travel freely between the world of the dead and the mortal plain.As a powerful undead creature you could either release them from torment or use them to farther your necromantic lunacy if you will.I'd like to be a good lich and an evil lich. :hubbahubba:

I think it would be an excellent option

More options! Moar!

Yes we need more options.