Limiting yourself. Gimping. : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:25 am

actually, if I remember corectly, the whole concept of rpg was build around a character able to develop his skills (or atributes, qualities, etc.) so that the playing of the character feels more immersive and give you a sence of YOU are driving it. Now, with all this, it`s fair to assume other character in game will also develop.

And here is my point: they should develop on an individual basis, not as a general level scale. it`s unreasonable that because YOU are better, all others are also better (and that also spoils the fun of getting better). They should level on the same rule as you do: using their skills. And if you are leveling at a slow pace, maybe others would level faster (would be a matter of choice). Always there should be low, mid and high level character, except they would dynamically rotate through leveling (after some time spent at highest level, a low level character would replace it). Leaders should always be at some degree of high level.

I would say dungeons should not scale. there should be different kinds of leveld dungeons and you should be pointed about their level by other characters. if you go there by youre self, it`s all on you.

I do understand there should be a way to maintain balance and provide either challange and possibility for every quest at every level. but that`s either not true: you shouldn`t pursue a way for witch you do not possess the means, beeing a quest item, or a quest completed before or why not the appropriate skill. as it is now, if you do not have the appropriate quest item, you are not given the quest or you are pointed toward obtaining it. it should work the same for skills and level also. you should pursue a way for witch you don`t have appropriate level, a character along the way should point you toward working out some particular skills or simply get more experience. you also hshould have tactical aproaches: should you have tons of money you can buy invisibility postions and work your way or hire a bunch of tough thougs to do the work for you, etc.

here I would say skill points are not to my liking.you should have the option to spend more points toward some skills in the detriment of others. this way, you can start with high combat skills and don`t even posses magical abilities and this offers you the means to do all fighting quests. the trick here is to have to choose your skills carefully, as you can`t obtain all. maximizing in one direction should constrain you in getting decent skills in another.

different aproaches should have benefits and disadvantages. I liked infamy system in oblivion. this should be back. a thief, known to be one, should loose in speech skill. an assassin, known as one should lose in sneak skill. killing someone and be seen should make you feard and so characters will aproach you less.

and again, quests should be designed to match all kinds of skills, not mainly combat (as we have magic, stealth) and also almost any quest should be aproached in different ways like open combat, stealth, assasin, magic, etc. Example: you have to take out a character because he stands in the way of your employer. you can kill him (by open fighting him, by killing him while he sleeps, by assassinating him from distance) or you can threaten him with killing and he will behave as you tell him. or by taking him out of bussines (like stealing his assets, killing caravans so he doesn`t get his supplies, compromising his bussines, etc.)

all these that I wrote here should make you choose a path. should force you decide the benefits AND disadvantages of your way and so to gimp you by default.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:53 am

Well unfortuantly, there are builds that nomatter what setting ur goign to be on is going to be 'easier' then other builds like say assassin. U make all enemies be able to take that insane backstab by either giving them effective health then the other classes will suffer unles u boost them as well which will end up back in the same boat. I see the game designed as supposed to get easier when u lvl and perk out because ur suppose to be the most badass out there. Does everyone knwo that when they first start playing? Some did who has experience for TES or FO games, the others have learnt the lesson later after they leveled up. Yes it is designed otbe that way weither we like it or not becuase at end of the game we are supposed to be the stuff that legends are made of like the ysmr and his 500 takign on a whoel nation and kicking thier ass or that forsworn commander that took down 1000 soldiers before he died. It is not a design flaw, its how they designed it and its doign exactly whats it supposed to do. Does everyone enjoy or agree with that? Hell no. Hell thats why i ahev mods to crank up the difficulty but the only problem is is that the mod combos i run with, the average person problemly would give up and not be able to either A. run the game because it taxes my system and i gotta a pretty dman good system or B. to complete the game.
Dotn have a problem them addign a new difficulty thing or what not, but dammit if im maxxed out on this stuff i chose and i got thebest armor and weapons, ibetter be able to cut thru a majority of the common rabbel with ease. Right now on my berserker lvl 53, i find my challenge either by the dragons that spawn or when i encounter a camp of bandits or imperials going against stormcloaks or guards and i jump in and pretty much all the enemy npcs that dotn have targets coem after me or when i dugeon diving and those damn "special" falmer warrior/mages if gped with 3 or 4 can do soem hurting on me. those mods present situations where it could take 30 mins to several hours of figuring out and planning how i can proceed thru ONE situation. Im loving it, its whyi bought a PC after all theses years ofplaying console, BUT i doubt even the majority of users who want mroe difficulty will enjoy being stuck on EVERY single enemy encounter for 30+mins.

They could make changes to the enemie AI, how bout when u engage with an enemy after he is hit once he uses his racial power. they could do it once PER battle. meanign that Nords could fear ya for 30 secs each time u were spotted or the dunmer threw on their fire cloaks ,that be fun fight a grp of 4 or 5 dunmers at once lol>. but one build i cannot seem to think of a way to "balance' it out since there are players that want thiewr assassin to be able to sneak into an enemy camp and do a stealthy assassination and sneak out without anyone knowing, so ya i dunno how to balance a stealthy charector out when its suppose to be very damn hard to detect or reliaze that person was even there aftereards..i dunno.
Only thing i can think is to dial back on the stats of the perks and have it to were if sneaking and enemys alerted, they stay alerted for 5 mins and will go let other mobs to stay on alert as well hell have them just get rid of the end sneak perk, the plus 50% dmg when duelweilding, and the dagger backstab perk. Though i always saw the daggerbackstab there for people who wanna make that assassination so that thye could be able to quickly and quietly get off that kill so that the enemy had a really good chance of sying so not to alert nearby enemys, but since its also used for other things take it out or lower the multiplier.

Or thye could just throw in enemy mobs that are A. immune to sneak crits, B. 80% dmg resist, and C. 80% magic resist, and D. use racial ability after being atked. That way it would neglect the sneak atk combos so it couldnt get oneshotted, and its got its melee and magic resist on par with you and give them wither the perk for bypassing 75% armor or if they a caster have it to were their "magic" atks are liek Thuums to were there isnt any resist for so that would neglect alch and enchant right there. That could work, but couldnt have the enite population like that though, that be pretty damn stubid but that set up for an enemy could be a challenge. dunno how to impliment it into the game though withoutbreain immersion but then again u could add the new difficulty name as "the gates of hell, immersion be damned!"

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:19 pm

My assassin doesnt even have to use stealth. I walk right through all dragons by just dual wielding and sometimes combining that with the Elemental Fury and Marked for Death shouts. I dont need to sneak. Sneaking is a waste of time cause I can just run over everything and everyone, including Dragon Priests. I killed http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nahkriin in 2-3 seconds, without a mark to show for it.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:09 pm

@Cy Tolliver: Stealthy combat is insanely OP, arguably even more so than the crafting trinity if the player knows what (s)he is doing, because the AI is a complete moron and doesn't understand that their buddy having an arrow through the nose means there's an assassin in the room and they might want to go find him/her before they end up the same way (which they do, because certain Stealth perks are OP in and of themselves). I made such a character (Archer style), played it for a long time, then retired her because combat was a total bore; made a second, didn't do much crafting this time, but retired him after a fair amount of play too for much the same reason. The AI simply cannot compete with a stealthy character in its current state, especially if the player thereof is experienced at stealth combat. Hell, the only times either character was even close to being at risk was during close-quarters fights involving multiple boss-class foes, since there was no way to pick a 'best' target to start the killing sequence with and killing one was guaranteed to alert the rest.

I feel your pain. I stopped perking sneak and find it is more fun that way. I will perk the right side of the tree but nothing on the laft side of the tree and only one point into Stealth. I also play with no HUD so you have to look and listen to the NPC's to determine whether they see you or not. That doesn't fix the wonky AI but it does put some of the fun back into sneak.

EDIT: I think they could go a long ways toward repairing the wonky AI by increasing the time in which the NPC's stay on alert after discovering one of their buddies has gotten himself killed. Those guys go back to what they were doing way too quickly.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:44 am

People... there's no "level cap of 81" The design of the game allows for it, but play much past level 55 is not intended.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:14 pm

People... there's no "level cap of 81" The design of the game allows for it, but play much past level 55 is not intended.

Can you get to level 82?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:50 am

People... there's no "level cap of 81" The design of the game allows for it, but play much past level 55 is not intended.

It certainly is intended, as one of the goals Todd set forth was that of allowing players to completely cap out if they so chose. That encounter lists top out at around L53 is a result of the assumption that most characters wouldn't go beyond that point, since doing so means going well outside one's skill set.

While that assumption has proven accurate (at least as far as I know), it was the wrong one to apply because it's a case of 'backwards thinking'. What they should have done was design on the assumption that at least some characters would hit the hard cap of 81, and be looking for appropriate opposition. If they had done this, I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of the complaints would never have arisen in the first place, since only those characters that are extremely optimized would be able to stomp such opponents.

Of course, since they didn't tie spawn level ranges to difficulty settings, there would instead be a raft of complaints about walking into a dungeon at L23 and getting obliterated by a L76 boss, since such opponents would be spawning at difficulties below that for which they were intended.

Which goes back to what we've been asking for, namely:

1) To have enemies capable of taking on (and out, if we're not careful and/or prepared) tweaked-out high-level super-characters
2) To have said enemies spawn only at those levels and on the highest difficulty setting, since that's the whole point of said setting in the first place

Done this way, those not seeking such challenges would never even see, much less have to deal with, these extreme opponents, since they wouldn't be playing in the conditions under which they could actually spawn. Note that we are not asking for, nor do we want, all opponents to be like this, just some of them, and then only where/when appropriate.

You see, our complaint is not so much that the game overall is too easy, as much as it is that it's too easy on the hardest difficulty, which should never be the case.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:43 am

I've been trying to limit myself at least as far as fast travel is concerned. If its going to make the game less fun by having to travel at a time when I don't feel like it I have no qualms about the occasional fast travel. Also I'll do it in nearby situations like when I'm already right by whiterun and I want my horse, I'll fast travel to the stables.

My first few characters I was not only using every advantage in the game but also cheating like crazy with console codes. It has been much funner playing without cheating and limiting my fast travel.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:05 am

Ergo, gimping = going out of your way to avoid letting the standard gameplay systems lead you inexorably towards mega-overpowered godhood, which it inevitably will if you just play this unbalanced game the way Bethesda made it, and don't gimp yourself.

Interesting that you say that. My characters always play the game naturally, as in little no grinding of a skill other than a level or two to get to a goal. My character is Level 47 now and last night an Elder Dragon almost killed me, if I did not have two Ultimate Healing Potions, I surely would have died, and this was with a Entire Stormcloak Camp joining in the battle against the dragon and using Storm Call 3rd Level during the battle. I did not Gimp my character in any way, I just played the game to get to where I am now. I would hardly call that having to go out of my way to create a weak character or to not avail myself of the game's resources.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:26 pm

Interesting that you say that. My characters always play the game naturally, as in little no grinding of a skill other than a level or two to get to a goal. My character is Level 47 now and last night an Elder Dragon almost killed me, if I did not have two Ultimate Healing Potions, I surely would have died, and this was with a Entire Stormcloak Camp joining in the battle against the dragon and using Storm Call 3rd Level during the battle. I did not Gimp my character in any way, I just played the game to get to where I am now. I would hardly call that having to go out of my way to create a weak character or to not avail myself of the game's resources.

All I have to do is use an 84% resist fire or resist frost potion that I crafted and I'll never even come close to having to use a health potion. You must not have much fire, frost, or magic resistance.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:25 pm

Interesting that you say that. My characters always play the game naturally, as in little no grinding of a skill other than a level or two to get to a goal. My character is Level 47 now and last night an Elder Dragon almost killed me, if I did not have two Ultimate Healing Potions, I surely would have died, and this was with a Entire Stormcloak Camp joining in the battle against the dragon and using Storm Call 3rd Level during the battle. I did not Gimp my character in any way, I just played the game to get to where I am now. I would hardly call that having to go out of my way to create a weak character or to not avail myself of the game's resources.

This just points out one of the hidden assumptions that people make when discussing difficulty: the assumption that everybody means the same thing by a 'difficult encounter'. For one person, 'almost dying' on level 47 means that the game provides a satisfactory challenge. In my own case, if my character isn't frequently dying, it's not hard enough. That's an entirely subjective preference that can't really be standardized in formal rules.

Although I don't want every encounter to be a boss-level encounter, I do want to be forced to use my wits and reflexes to survive on a frequent basis because a lot of my satisfaction comes from beating overwhelming odds. If I walk into every encounter knowing that I'm probably going to win, the game loses a lot of its interest. A robust difficulty slider would capture both experiences. If the difficulty slider is only providing one, the problem is with the slider, not the player, because players can't help but be motivated by these kinds of subjective desires.

I suspect that this difference in interpretation of the term 'difficulty' lies behind much of the incredulity some players express about other players' preference for more challenging gameplay. They just don't see how players could enjoy something that they don't enjoy themselves so they assume the player is lying about their abilities. "What do you mean this game isn't challenging enough? I almost died." Exactly: the game threw everything it could at you and it still couldn't kill you, not even once.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:14 am

This just points out one of the hidden assumptions that people make when discussing difficulty: the assumption that everybody means the same thing by a 'difficult encounter'. For one person, 'almost dying' on level 47 means that the game provides a satisfactory challenge. In my own case, if my character isn't frequently dying, it's not hard enough. That's an entirely subjective preference that can't really be standardized in formal rules.

Good point. People's views on what is "difficult" can be subjective and vary greatly. I tend to be in the "almost" died makes it challenging camp, rather than the "frequently" died camp, but if loading up a save was quicker, I might switch camps.

I usualy turn off the PS3 and reboot the entire system when I die because you can get various glitches by reloading a prior save in game. So if I die, it takes about five minutes to get back where I was. Hence, "almost" dying and occassionally dying are enough challenge for me. Wish loading up a save were quicker and "safer" to do because "frequently dying" sounds fun if those problems could be avoided.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:31 am

Good point. People's views on what is "difficult" can be subjective and vary greatly. I tend to be in the "almost" died makes it challenging camp, rather than the "frequently" died camp, but if loading up a save was quicker, I might switch camps.

I usualy turn off the PS3 and reboot the entire system when I die because you can get various glitches by reloading a prior save in game. So if I die, it takes about five minutes to get back where I was. Hence, "almost" dying and occassionally dying are enough challenge for me. Wish loading up a save were quicker and "safer" to do because "frequently dying" sounds fun if those problems could be avoided.

That's seems like a more serious issue than this topic. You're not alone. The game froze so hard it gave my Xbox the red ring and now it takes 10 seconds or more to shut down when I turn it off.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:30 am

Exactly: the game threw everything it could at you and it still couldn't kill you, not even once.

The game threw one dragon at me. I threw an entire camp of Stormcloaks at it, along with one of the most powerful Shouts I could.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:20 pm

All I have to do is use an 84% resist fire or resist frost potion that I crafted and I'll never even come close to having to use a health potion. You must not have much fire, frost, or magic resistance.

I needed Teeth Resistance. The dragon only tried to cook me once, that did not reduce my health much. It was all the chomps.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:01 am

I needed Teeth Resistance. The dragon only tried to cook me once, that did not reduce my health much. It was all the chomps.

You have a Mage, correct? Master Alteration and then get the http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonhide spell, which gives you +80% damage resistance.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stability - Increases the duration to 45 seconds instead of the normal time span of 30 seconds.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dual_Wielding - Increases the duration to 99 seconds when teamed with Stability.

You can also use a http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Infusion potion which gives you +25% damage resistance against dragons.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:41 am

It's like me the dragons have a cussing fess. I cuss him out with a shout, and he cusses me back with his.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:52 pm

Gimping is terrible. However, limiting yourself BECAUSE OF ROLEPLAYING isn't. There's a massive difference.

Gimping is actually prohibiting yourself from doing something that you believe is cheap. I hate that philosophy in both multiplayer games and singleplayer games. If it's there and it doesn't break immersion, go for it. Smithing for example, many gimpers stay away from. It's terrible, especially if you're a warrior class.

Roleplaying limits are simple. Just don't do what your character wouldn't like to do. A mage wouldn't like to smith or a barbarian wouldn't use magic. Stuff like that. Skyrim is an Action Roleplaying game. Roleplay limits. Just randomly imposing limits ruin the game's experience, especially if you impose limits on characters that would normally do stuff like that.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:08 am

You have a Mage, correct? Master Alteration and then get the http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonhide spell, which gives you +80% damage resistance.

Current Characters are a Paladin type Warrior, no magic, a Thief who is still wet behind the ears and can't sneak out of an empty room and a Ranger/Scout type. No magic for these folks, it does not fit the role.

My mage character will use Dragon Skin, but they will also not be wearing any armor, but a simple Robe so it will be needed.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:56 am

I needed Teeth Resistance. The dragon only tried to cook me once, that did not reduce my health much. It was all the chomps.

Well, yeah... dragon bites are often fatal, you gotta get the heck out from in front of them, when they decide they have the munchies :biggrin:

They'll cast a magic blast at you, fire or frost, then go for the deep-throat lunge... I try to make sure their goose-necks can't quite reach me, at that juncture. Even my best chars fall when they get a head-on jaw-grip on you and toss you across the map. But, that is the extreme rarity for the game, as most other enemies do not have the dragon's super-powered one-bite instakill ability. Everything else goes down like wheat before a scythe.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:29 am

I was chomped for the first time 2 days ago. On that first chomp, I made sure to never get up close and personal with dragons ever again.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:28 am

Gimping = choosing to limit your character to something less than the best they can be, not using the better items, perks or skills, not utilizing all of or significant parts of the available crafting opportunities ingame that allow you to improve your gear, and generally avoiding acquiring or doing things that make you noticeably more powerful than the enemies you are fighting in your chosen difficulty level. Or some combination of all those. Ergo, gimping = going out of your way to avoid letting the standard gameplay systems lead you inexorably towards mega-overpowered godhood, which it inevitably will if you just play this unbalanced game the way Bethesda made it, and don't gimp yourself.

What makes you think I don't completely understand this concept from my original post? I'm about to blow your mind a second time: I disagree. :howisthatpossible:

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:15 am

Balancing the game isn't the job of the player. There's no reason not to have difficulty levels that are a challenge for everybody.

Yes it is. It always has been for every game you've ever enjoyed, and always will be. Especially for the "non-linear" roleplaying games. Choice = Balance. You have the option to choose. It's why you like it.

Call the ambulance. You're having an aneurysm.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:36 am

What makes you think I don't completely understand this concept from my original post? I'm about to blow your mind a second time: I disagree. :howisthatpossible:

You flatter yourself unjustly. Nothing you've said came anywhere remotely near 'blowing my mind'. Shaking my head? Yes, that.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:10 am

Yes it is. It always has been for every game you've ever enjoyed, and always will be. Especially for the "non-linear" roleplaying games. Choice = Balance. You have the option to choose. It's why you like it.

The only way choice = balance, is if you're talking about choosing an appropriately-difficult difficulty setting to play in, *that was properly balanced in the first place by the devs*. Choosing to play on the highest difficulty, Master, and then being forced to gimp your gear, stats and playstyle in order not to easily overpower even THAT difficulty level... that's just sloppy gamemaking, and a total lack of any balancing whatsoever by them. Yes, you should be able to choose how you want to play within the difficulty framework, to your own tastes and desires... but at days end, master difficulty should truly be master difficulty for any player, using any playstyle, equipment, and build... not 'master difficulty only if you actively choose to gimp yourself and don't take advantage of the best abilities and gear in the game'.